What must I do to be saved?

[Julia_Mae]

We’re talking about justification, being made right before God …

No, "we"aren’t, because we are not completely misunderstanding what the word “justified” means. First, the “to be” verb does not appear in the Scripture, in the Greek Scripture. They has the form, but Paul doesn’t use it here. Second, the word is: dikaioo which means:

**1) to render righteous or such he ought to be

1. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
2. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be**

So,here: a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law, Paul is saying a man makes himself righteous, exhibits righteousness, or declares his righteousness, in ways other than: circumcision, ceremonial washing, sacrificing animals, paying tithes, eating only certain foods… These are “works of the Law” which Paul is now carefully distinguishing from the “good works” he has just said are the basis of God’s reward only a short time before:

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: 7eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,

It is patently clear that Paul completely agrees and is restating what Jesus told us in the aforementioned passage from Matthew: **a man is justified before God by his works: **feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, caring for the sick, visiting the imprisoned.

Don’t bother and you go to hell. Do good here and you are rewarded. It’s pretty simple.

You apparently have no idea what the whole letter to the Romans was about or to whom it was written or why.

This is what Paul says in Romans:

• no one has an excuse to be a sinner because he can know by his own innate sense what is good and what is not and choose to do the good.
• that Jesus came for all
• that judgement of God is based on what you do not who you are ( born a Jew)
• that the external trappings of religion do not have anything to do with true salvation
• that we are weak in our flesh and there is a struggle between our desire for the good and our tendency to sin
• that with Grace we can rise very far above our own nature and fulfill the destiny of all men to become like Jesus Christ.

This is what Paul says. Read Romans from beginning to end.

 

[Philthy]

None of the things listed above are requirements for salvation.

Hi Leadee -

You seem like a nice person. Like myself, you do not seem to be of an exceptional intellect and your replies do not seem to grasp the intentions - explicit or implicit - presented by those to whom you respond. The dialogue on this thread has gone in circles as a result of this. I think, if you truly wish to make a point or learn anything regarding the Catholic faith (ie the reason your supposed to be here ) you should stick to a very narrow topic and proceed from there. That, of course, is just my lowly opinion. BTW, I do like your choice of names and it seems entirely consistent with your personality: you are follower (ie, a leadee) and not a lead*er *. The only question which remains is by whom, exactly, are you led?

Whether catholic or otherwise, my hope is that those who love God will ultimatly understand the freedom that they can truly have in Jesus Christ.

Freedom is great just as long as one realizes that how our freedom is used has eternal consequences. See Galatians 5:

For you were called for freedom, brothers.j But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve* one another through love…I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh…Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness,idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions,occasions of envy,* drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

And please take note Leadee: Paul uses almost the exact same language as he does in 1 Cor 6 only this time he articulates more precisely what is at stake: the KofG itself will not be inherited. You had attempted to twist his words from 1 Cor 6(ie “have no inheritance in the KoG”)to mean that we will still be saved, but that our inheritance (whatever that means, exactly) will be compromised. That erroneous view is clearly shown to be just that by this parallel verse: those who do such things will not inherit the KofG itself. Deal with it Leadee, your OSAS theology simply isn’t consistent with the word of God. You have much of the faith correct, but you are missing some important parts of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who you are following are good people, I’m sure, but they are mistaken as well, and they are mistaken because they have separated themselves from the Church established by Christ and commissioned with the duty of proclaiming the truth.

Will you pause and reflect on this? Perhaps spend some prayer time engaging this issue? Or will you react in a prideful and stubborn manner, closed to hearing what you would prefer not to hear? I hope it is the former…

Blessings

 

[Jim_Dandy]

That pretty much nails it J.D.

Great post…

May God bless you and yours always…

Matthew

Well put

God Bless

Much obliged, guys! I appreciate your words, coming from two of the best!

Jim Dandy

 

[davidmlamb]

Much obliged, guys! I appreciate your words, coming from two of the best!

Jim Dandy

Jim, you guys have done a remarkable job explaining the scriptures in a clear and unambiguous way clearly demonstrating that the bible is teaching the Catholic faith and no other gospel. i have dealt with anti Catholic Protestants for 13 years now since I reverted and it is a tough task.

I was born and raised Catholic by my parents. There has never been a time in my life that I have not known Christ but there has been many times in my life where I have not been faithful to Him and have fallen into mortal sin. In evangelical language mortal sin translates to “backsliding.” My father left my mother in 1970 and our family broke up. Fortunately I was baptized and made my first communion by 1969. Ultimately I ended up in a boys home. I continued to go to mass on my own but became vulnerable to protestantism. In 1978 I got “saved” in Calvary Chapel Riverside (now called Harvest Ministries). I went to both mass and Calvary Chapel for 2 years. On Wendsday nights charismatic nuns came in to teach us bible studies. I was drawn to the supernatural gifts of the spirit.

In 1984 I met my first wife Charity and we were married outside the church and without the permission of the Bishop. I had stopped going to all churches for 2 years and during that time I met her. We quickly developed marital problems and I sought counseling from the Assemblies of God. In October of 1986 I officially left the Catholic Church being rebaptized in the Assemblies of God (AOG). I think that from the moment I was rebaptized in the AOG God lead me on a path that would ultimately bring me back to the Church but equipped for apologetics. I quickly learned that although all protestants believed the bible was the only inspired source of God’s Word, they never agreed on biblical theology. I attended many diversified interdenominational bible studies which always started out great but somewhere down the line there was a power struggle for biblical theology and the group splintered. The same was true for the AOG Church itself. People were always leaving to join other churches because they had some falling out over a theological issue which the bible alone could never resolve.

I became a leader in the AOG, I taught Sunday School to adults for 12 years and street witnessed in San Francisco every Saturday morning. I was even a 700 Club phone councilor for 3 years on Friday nights and I engaged in debates with Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons. I was very active in the AOG and the Evangelical/Pentecostal community. But there was a growing concern that I had developed over theology myself that I could just not so easily jump to the next denomination. That was the Protestant dogma of sola fide. Although the mantra pounded in our heads was we were saved by faith alone and not works, the bible clearly and unambiguously simply did not teach this. In practice the Pentecostals were working more hard for their salvation then any Catholic I ever knew and the Southern Baptist always seemed to live double lives and then excuse their sin by claiming they were not perfect. AOG clergy and lay people seemed to serve two gods, money and the Lord but clearly they seemed to Christianize capitalism and could be very cold hearted to people with consistent needs. Although they had food pantries and limited assistance to the poor they expected you to snap out of your poverty pretty quickly and if you didn’t you were ignored and no longer invited to home bible studies.

I had always worked, I had a very good job but in 1994 I was laid off from my good job after 13 years. In less then 6 months I was no longer allowed to hold a leadership role and both me and my wife were treated like outcast because we no longer contributed to the Church “business” but became financial liabilities. The tough times ended my marriage with little to no support from the AOG which turned their backs on us. I left Church but I did not leave God. My divorce forced me to re-evaluate my faith and I began to search. That search lead me back to the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. On June 26, 1999 I was taken back into the Church, made a good confession, was granted an annulment and remarried in the Church and all 4 of our kids were baptized all on that day. I have never looked back since. My vocation in addition to marriage is evangalizing protestants and especially those protestants who were once Catholic.

Peace,
David

 

[PRmerger]

Jim, you guys have done a remarkable job explaining the scriptures in a clear and unambiguous way clearly demonstrating that the bible is teaching the Catholic faith and no other gospel. i have dealt with anti Catholic Protestants for 13 years now since I reverted and it is a tough task.

I was born and raised Catholic by my parents. There has never been a time in my life that I have not known Christ but there has been many times in my life where I have not been faithful to Him and have fallen into mortal sin. In evangelical language mortal sin translates to “backsliding.” My father left my mother in 1970 and our family broke up. Fortunately I was baptized and made my first communion by 1969. Ultimately I ended up in a boys home. I continued to go to mass on my own but became vulnerable to protestantism. In 1978 I got “saved” in Calvary Chapel Riverside (now called Harvest Ministries). I went to both mass and Calvary Chapel for 2 years. On Wendsday nights charismatic nuns came in to teach us bible studies. I was drawn to the supernatural gifts of the spirit.

In 1984 I met my first wife Charity and we were married outside the church and without the permission of the Bishop. I had stopped going to all churches for 2 years and during that time I met her. We quickly developed marital problems and I sought counseling from the Assemblies of God. In October of 1986 I officially left the Catholic Church being rebaptized in the Assemblies of God (AOG). I think that from the moment I was rebaptized in the AOG God lead me on a path that would ultimately bring me back to the Church but equipped for apologetics. I quickly learned that although all protestants believed the bible was the only inspired source of God’s Word, they never agreed on biblical theology. I attended many diversified interdenominational bible studies which always started out great but somewhere down the line there was a power struggle for biblical theology and the group splintered. The same was true for the AOG Church itself. People were always leaving to join other churches because they had some falling out over a theological issue which the bible alone could never resolve.

I became a leader in the AOG, I taught Sunday School to adults for 12 years and street witnessed in San Francisco every Saturday morning. I was even a 700 Club phone councilor for 3 years on Friday nights and I engaged in debates with Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons. I was very active in the AOG and the Evangelical/Pentecostal community. But there was a growing concern that I had developed over theology myself that I could just not so easily jump to the next denomination. That was the Protestant dogma of sola fide. Although the mantra pounded in our heads was we were saved by faith alone and not works, the bible clearly and unambiguously simply did not teach this. In practice the Pentecostals were working more hard for their salvation then any Catholic I ever knew and the Southern Baptist always seemed to live double lives and then excuse their sin by claiming they were not perfect. AOG clergy and lay people seemed to serve two gods, money and the Lord but clearly they seemed to Christianize capitalism and could be very cold hearted to people with consistent needs. Although they had food pantries and limited assistance to the poor they expected you to snap out of your poverty pretty quickly and if you didn’t you were ignored and no longer invited to home bible studies.

I had always worked, I had a very good job but in 1994 I was laid off from my good job after 13 years. In less then 6 months I was no longer allowed to hold a leadership role and both me and my wife were treated like outcast because we no longer contributed to the Church “business” but became financial liabilities. The tough times ended my marriage with little to no support from the AOG which turned their backs on us. I left Church but I did not leave God. My divorce forced me to re-evaluate my faith and I began to search. That search lead me back to the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. On June 26, 1999 I was taken back into the Church, made a good confession, was granted an annulment and remarried in the Church and all 4 of our kids were baptized all on that day. I have never looked back since. My vocation in addition to marriage is evangalizing protestants and especially those protestants who were once Catholic.

Peace,
David

Wow! Thanks for sharing your story, David! Welcome back home!

 

[Leadee]

How do you know the above underlined section?

Is it not also an interpretation of Scripture? If so, then it still does not make sense because you are assuming what you are about to prove i.e. Those gathered in Jesus’s name can teach and it is not just a few chosen men.

We also know your position is false by looking at the early church. Historically speaking, we see that not everyone who KNEW Jesus was allowed to decide on teaching matters or become an apostle. Just look at the circumcision debate for an example. So what you say does not even historically agree with the Early Church.

God Bless

Whew! I have no idea what you are saying here so I don’t even know how to address it. Sorry. I’m really sorry but I am not able to grasp your theology.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

i have dealt with anti Catholic Protestants for 13 years now since I reverted and it is a tough task.

David Lamb, the Lamb of God had you in his arms all through those years that you were both in and out of His Church, and He welcomed you back home in the one sheepfold of the One Shepherd. May God bless you and your work of defending His Church! Your story is an inspiration, especially to others that are not of this fold.

Thank you for sharing your story!

Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Leadee, please reply to my post #781.

Thank you, Jim Dandy

 

[ddarko]

Whew! I have no idea what you are saying here so I don’t even know how to address it. Sorry. I’m really sorry but I am not able to grasp your theology.

The issue here is not Theology Leadee. That is what I am telling you here. At least, you can’t resolve the issue merely from Theology as to who is right.

You have one Theological interpretation and we have another. That is my point to you. The logical consistency of either position is not sufficient to guarantee that one has the true interpretation.

So you have to use history to understand what to do. You have to look at the early Church and see how and WHO they came to believe.

That is what you and the Protestants have not done.

Please answer Jim’s post #781 too.

God Bless

 

[Leadee]

davidmlamb:
Leadee, I have filled in and made emphasis in the scripture passages you truncated in order to put them in their proper context. This should help you understand the bible correctly. Clearly now we can see that what Paul is referring to is the works of the Mosaic Law in the flesh which were required in order to obtain righteousness. Paul is pointing out that the Jews and the Gentiles are no longer subject to the Mosaic Law with its WORKS of the flesh such as circumcision, ceremonial washings, the observance of new moons Sabbath Days ect… (Colossians 2:16-17). This Covenant has been set aside for a new and better covenant making the Law of Moses Obsolete (Hebrews 8)

Therefore, we are saved by grace through faith which empowers us to good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do (Matt 25:14-46). Therefore, denying ourselves, taking up or crosses and following Christ (Matt 16:24) is a matter of working out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12) as we are justified by the good works God has called us to do and not by faith alone (James 2:24). That Leadee is Bible ONLY as the bible is teaching the Catholic faith and no other gospel!

Peace,

David

There are many verses that say we are not justified by our own works and one that says we are. It can’t be both ways. That’s called a contradiction and God can’t contradict himself. If we have to keep working for our salvation then christianity is no different from any other religion. I have to believe that Jesus is much larger then just a temporary fix.

James 2:24 has to be read in context of the whole passage. He’s talking about someone who’s is saying that they are in the faith. James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20). He’s saying that if you are claiming to be a christian, you’d better have the works to back it up. You can’t just say you believe in Jesus, you have to make Him Lord of your life and if you do that you will bear good fruit.

 

[Leadee]

Leadee, please reply to my post #781.

Thank you, Jim Dandy

I have to find it lol!

 

[ddarko]

I have to find it lol!

It’s the FIRST post in page 53.

Here is the link

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8233236&postcount=781

God Bless

 

[Leadee]

Leadee, We show our love of God by our faith and our love of neighbor by our works. Both are required for salvation. See Mt 25:31-46 and James 2:24, among many other verses in Scripture.

And, as I always remind you and others, the New Testament consists of 27 of the Catholic Church’s own writings. That is history. That cannot be denied. Christ founded the Church; the Church in turn wrote the NT and compiled and named the Bible. If you would pay attention to the beginning of each ‘book,’ you would see that the NT was written by Catholics, to Catholics, and for Catholics. It was not written for those outside the Church. It is not a systematic instruction book in Christianity, as Protestants – you included – try to make it. The NT is the written record of the spiritual live of the newborn Catholic Church for the first 50 years or so after she was founded by Jesus Christ.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book; He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher and guaranteed that she would teach the TRUTH always. He never instructed anyone to write anything. The NT can’t be understood correctly unless it’s read in the context of the believing, teaching Church who wrote it.

Jim Dandy

There are many verses that say that we are not justified by works so these scriptures would be a contradiction and we know that God can’t contradict Himself. The scriptures you mentioned must be read in the full context of the passage in order to understand the message. They are not talking about earning salvation. for example, in James he’s talking about true or false faith. In James 2:14-20 he’s using the example of someone who says he has faith and says what use is it if someone says he has faith if there are no good works. In vs 21-26 he’s giving an example of someone from the old testiment who exhibited true faith. The justification he’s talking about in vs 24 is whether he is justified in claiming to be a believer. This greek word dikaioō means to be made righteous but it can also mean to show or exhibit.

The bible was written by men that were inspired by God. It’s very sad to me that you exclude those outside of the church. Jesus came to save the lost. God’s Word is not soley for “catholics”.

What I think I’m hearing is that the church is infalable. God gave us His one and only Son, who is the Word. Jesus started the church and is the head of the church. The church is not an entity in itself. It’s nothing without Jesus. While God says there will always be a remenant of believers, where does He guarentee that the church will always teach the truth? It may be in the bible but I don’t know where. The church has certainly gotten off the mark in the past and has not always taught truth.

The heart of the good news is that Jesus Christ accomplished for me what I cannot so I am putting my faith and trust in Him first.

 

[ddarko]

There are many verses that say we are not justified by our own works and one that says we are. It can’t be both ways. That’s called a contradiction and God can’t contradict himself. If we have to keep working for our salvation then christianity is no different from any other religion. **I have to believe that Jesus is much larger then just a temporary fix.
**
**James 2:24 has to be read in context of the whole passage. He’s talking about someone who’s is saying that they are in the faith. **James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, “Faith without works is dead,” (James 2:20). He’s saying that if you are claiming to be a christian, you’d better have the works to back it up. You can’t just say you believe in Jesus, you have to make Him Lord of your life and if you do that you will bear good fruit.

Leadee, do you understand this issue at least now?

Please REPLY. You are making a logically consistent interpretation of Scripture. THAT IS ONE of INFINITELY possible interpretations.

So just because you have a consistent view does not make it TRUE.

To answer which is true, you have to step outside of mere Theology and look at Church history. Do you get that?

And honestly even in terms of theology, your position is a bit absurd. You can’t make Jesus the “lord of your life” without doing GOOD WORKS. So to make Jesus Lord of your life, you must

1. Have FAITH in him
2. DO the FATHERS WILL (i.e. GOOD WORKS)

You can’t just say “I HAVE FAITH THAT JESUS IS THE LORD OF MY LIFE” and that is sufficient.
Even Demons believe that Jesus has perfect control of his creation

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

The heart of the good news is that Jesus Christ accomplished for me what I cannot so I am putting my faith and trust in Him first.

SERIOUSLY LEADEEE,

you are like a broken record. HOW THE HECK DO YOU KNOW THE ABOVE?

That is the question you and your protestant buddies don’t answer.

SO PLEASE, answer the question.

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST ACCOMPLISHED ANYTHING?

God Bless

 

[ddarko]

What I think I’m hearing is that the church is infalable. God gave us His one and only Son, who is the Word. Jesus started the church and is the head of the church. The church is not an entity in itself. It’s nothing without Jesus. While God says there will always be a remenant of believers, where does He guarentee that the church will always teach the truth? It may be in the bible but I don’t know where. The church has certainly gotten off the mark in the past and has not always taught truth.

God says there is a remnant of believers according to WHO? YOU?

Whats your authority to say that you are right?

And seriously, look at the insanity here. You want to believe that the Apostles taught without error. BUT… you want to say that the Apostles they instituted lack this authority.

BUT, if you go with that claim, St. Paul, St. Mark, St. Luke are all possibly in error and their respective gospels are worthless too.

Do you see the problem with the protestant position? It’s so concerned about something totally moot i.e. getting a logically consistent interpretation. But such interpretations are dime a dozen. Logical consistency does not mean something is TRUE.

God Bless

 

[David_Castlen]

Amazingly, all thorough discussions of any topic with protestants always end up evenutally addressing Authority. That is how I ended up as a Catholic; a revert.
G.K. Chesterton is purported to have said, “Any christian that knows history is condemned to be a Catholic.”

 

[Tomster]

There are many verses that say that we are not justified by works so these scriptures would be a contradiction and we know that God can’t contradict Himself. The scriptures you mentioned must be read in the full context of the passage in order to understand the message. They are not talking about earning salvation. for example, in James he’s talking about true or false faith. In James 2:14-20 he’s using the example of someone who says he has faith and says what use is it if someone says he has faith if there are no good works. In vs 21-26 he’s giving an example of someone from the old testiment who exhibited true faith. The justification he’s talking about in vs 24 is whether he is justified in claiming to be a believer. This greek word dikaioō means to be made righteous but it can also mean to show or exhibit.

The bible was written by men that were inspired by God. It’s very sad to me that you exclude those outside of the church. Jesus came to save the lost. God’s Word is not soley for “catholics”.

What I think I’m hearing is that the church is infalable. God gave us His one and only Son, who is the Word. Jesus started the church and is the head of the church. The church is not an entity in itself. It’s nothing without Jesus. While God says there will always be a remenant of believers, where does He guarentee that the church will always teach the truth? It may be in the bible but I don’t know where. The church has certainly gotten off the mark in the past and has not always taught truth.

The heart of the good news is that Jesus Christ accomplished for me what I cannot so I am putting my faith and trust in Him first.

Leadee,

You certainly have been bombarded with tons of information and I admire you for hanging in there trying to respond to all of it to the best of your ability.

Trying my best to simplify all of this to the best of my ability I pose this short paragraph for your consideration. Before responding to it, you might want to take some time and think it over.

Simply, faith alone does not have the power of saving man for two reasons:

1. The first reason is that infants are capable of justification, which we suppose no one will deny, but infants are not capable of an act of faith.
2. The second reason is that faith is a temporary virtue. That’s right Leadee, faith is “temporary”! Faith is temporary because it ceases when we enter heaven. When we enter heaven, we don’t need faith anymore. We are forever sealed in God’s eternal love. Of the three virtues of faith, hope and charity only charity, love, will remain in eternity. Faith will no longer be necessary whereas the principle of justification is permanent and eternal.

I hope this little explanation will be helpful for you.

 

[Tomster]

Amazingly, all thorough discussions of any topic with protestants always end up evenutally addressing Authority. That is how I ended up as a Catholic; a revert.
G.K. Chesterton is purported to have said, “Any christian that knows history is condemned to be a Catholic.”

Indeed, David, the question of authority must be addressed by all sincere seekers of truth.

 

[QuickCat]

And what is “required for salvation”? Must one be baptized? Must one go to church? Must one read the Bible?

How do you know what’s “required”, and please cite your bible verses.

Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and thou shall be S-A-V-E-D! Acts 16:31
Believe that He died for your sins, was buried and rose again the 3rd day! 1 Cor. 15:1-4
Paul says that his is THE gospel which we have received, and it which we stand and BY WHICH WE ARE S-A-V-E-D!
Paul says that IN WHOM WE TRUSTED, after HEARING THE WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION, ALSO AFTER WE BELIEVED WE WERE
S-E-A-L-E-D WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. This SEAL is until the day of redemption. Ephesians 1:13,14.
Paul also writes that: We [believers] are COMPLETE IN HIM. Col. 2:10
Paul also writes that: HE HATH FORGIVEN US A-L-L TREASPASSES. Col. 2:13
The word “complete” is pleroo and means to be filled to the absolute fullest.
Strong’s Greek Dictionary
4137. πληροω pleroo
Search for G4137 in KJVSL
πληροω pleroo play-ro’-o
from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:—accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

See Greek 4134