What must I do to be saved?

[Della]

OK, bearing all this in mind - what is the point of the cross if we are saved by living a good life?

What Jesus accomplished on the cross was our redemption, not our salvation. Let me explain. Redemption was the act by which Christ satisfied God’s justice for our sins. Salvation is possible because of Christ’s redeeming act. Salvation is a future event, one we are aiming towards. It was the grace of God that worked our redemption and it is the grace of God that works our salvation. Both are acts in time, but redemption has been fulfilled for all mankind. Salvation is what each of us hopes to gain by utilizing the grace God has given us through the redemption Christ won for us on the cross.

We cannot hope for salvation by merely assenting to Christ’s redeeming act/his offering to God on our behalf, we must also become holy as the Father is holy, as Jesus commanded us. And we can only do that by “working out our salvation with fear and trembling”. We must walk the walk, not just talk the talk. It’s all there in the Book of James.

 

[Eruvande]

So, if I’m understanding things correctly, the cross is an opened door - we must walk through it to be ultimately saved? Like it made salvation possible, but not definite?

 

[fhansen]

So, if I’m understanding things correctly, the cross is an opened door - we must walk through it to be ultimately saved? Like it made salvation possible, but not definite?

Yes, Adam wasn’t forced to remain turned towards God, the Prodigal wasn’t forced to turn back to the Father, and neither are we.

 

[Della]

So, if I’m understanding things correctly, the cross is an opened door - we must walk through it to be ultimately saved? Like it made salvation possible, but not definite?

Yes, that’s a good analogy. But we aren’t expected, indeed we can’t do it through our own power. It is the grace of God that keeps us faithful and allows us to do Christian acts of charity. This is why Jesus established the seven sacraments–to endow us with grace in every aspect of our lives from baptism to confirmation, marriage and religious life, the Eucharist–the queen of the sacraments and reconciliation (confession). All are meant to give us God’s grace so we can be saved. And being saved isn’t just a matter of escaping hell, although it certainly is that. It’s more–it’s being molded into the image of Christ so we can have perfect union with God. This is why we should want to do God’s will and not sin more because sin offends the God we love than merely to escape punishment for our sins.

 

[WD615]

Basically, yes. The cross makes salvation possible, but there are people in hell, so says Jesus. So salvation isn’t automatically guaranteed to everyone. If you do not recognize Him on earth, then he won’t recognize you in heaven. It doesn’t matter whether that happens before or after your baptism. Mortal sin is that rejection of Christ that breaks apart your relationship. You must cling to the cross and persevere to the end for your final reward. If you do that, then you can be assured of salvation.

 

[Eruvande]

This is quite a departure for me, coming from a reformed Baptist position. Lots to think about.

 

[Della]

This is quite a departure for me, coming from a reformed Baptist position. Lots to think about.

It was for me too, coming from a Pentecostal background. The whole works vs. faith thing is a false notion. No Catholic believes he works his way to heaven. Faith and Christian works of charity are both gifts of God’s grace. Everything is a grace from God. We cooperate with God’s grace–that’s our part. God does the rest. Indeed, we usually need to just get ourselves out of the way to let God work in us. Salvation is like the wedding day after a long and fruitful courtship and engagement. We learn about God and we learn to love God above all things and then we are united with him. And that is a life long process.

 

[po18guy]

This is quite a departure for me, coming from a reformed Baptist position. Lots to think about.

If your current communion was completely satisfying in its doctrines, you would not be on this journey. Your soul and your intellect sense that something is amiss. They know, at some level, that there is more. You are even now discovering that “more.”

 

[fhansen]

This is quite a departure for me, coming from a reformed Baptist position. Lots to think about.

When Paul is talking about works vs faith or works of the law vs faith, he’s contrasting the Old Covenant mentality with the New Covenant mentality, being under the law vs being under grace. In the former our own effort is involved, based on our own “righteousness”, which itself is based on the law rather than on faith as per Phil 3:9. He’s not telling us that we’re not to be authentically righteous, rather he’s telling us that, ‘apart from Christ we can do nothing’. And this implies that with Christ-and only with Christ- we can do something- which means that we accomplish something together, synergistically. We work out own our salvation (Phil 2:12), and yet God works in us (Phil2:13). He draws us (John 6:44) and yet He comes close to us if we draw near to Him (James 4:8), choosing to pick up our cross daily and follow Him (Luke 9:23). And this is explained beautifully in general terms by the Parable of the Talents, where God gives, we receive, but also we must invest what we’re given.

 

[Eruvande]

Well I think the next step is to discover if the catholic church is actually what it says it is, this all comes down to authority. I have a book by Jimmy Akin which arrived in the post today so I’ going to peruse that and see what happens.

 

[po18guy]

Well I think the next step is to discover if the catholic church is actually what it says it is, this all comes down to authority. I have a book by Jimmy Akin which arrived in the post today so I’ going to peruse that and see what happens.

Another good book is By What Authority? written by Mark Shea. Not dense or scholarly - more like the practical and logical musings of a man who made much the same journey that you are on.

 

[fhansen]

Well I think the next step is to discover if the catholic church is actually what it says it is, this all comes down to authority. I have a book by Jimmy Akin which arrived in the post today so I’ going to peruse that and see what happens.

If you haven’t already it might be interesting for you to read the Council of Trent, session 6, where you can consider the Church’s teachings vs the Reformed position on justification there. There’s a lot there to meditate on.

 

[OldProf]

Well I think the next step is to discover if the catholic church is actually what it says it is, this all comes down to authority. I have a book by Jimmy Akin which arrived in the post today so I’ going to peruse that and see what happens.

Eruvande, there has been a lively discussion about the Assurance of Salvation (two threads) that should be of great interest to you:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=658668&highlight=OldProf&page=3

It has now gone on for more than 2000 responses - my first (name removed by moderator)ut was #42.

Later: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=751308&highlight=OldProf&page=67

I have provided a Scriptural argument that is so strong no one has been able get around it. See for yourself. And I provided some “Evidence Lists” that tell you if you are a Christian, that is, one of Jesus’ sheep (John 10:27-28).

Bottom line - the Bible teaches you CAN have an assurance of your salvation.

Regards, OldProf

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The bible does not teach that lie! Any branches that are united to Christ and have His saving life in them–if they don’t bear fruit and ABIDE in Him can be cut off and BURNED!

That’s SAVED people folks and anyone who tells you different is LYING!

You aren’t saved by faith alone but by works–anyone who denies this is saying that the Holy Spirit who inspired James 2:24 is a Liar!

The bible doesn’t contradict itself–St. Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit would never tell us to “work out our salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING” if there was such a thing as BLESSED assurance!

And don’t worry–as long as the devil sends people here telling the assurance of salvation lie there will be Catholics who will refute that hogwash EVERY single time it is uttered!

We’ll pray for the people who utter it but if those people KNOW that it is a lie and utter it unrepentantly til death they will burn on Hell forever because they will die in a state of mortal sin.

We as Catholics don’t believe in the monster god that takes people’s freedom of will away from them after they are initially saved because “God is Love” and as St. Paul says “Love does not demand its own way”.

God will LET us leave Him. We can mortally sin–be unrepentant for it–and wind up in Hell!

People don’t always and NECESSARILY always not choose sin after they are saved. Anyone with a brain and human experience KNOWS this!

Anyone with a brain can comprehend that there are different levels of sin–if you don’t believe that then go to to he penitentiary and see for yourself!

And God does not WELCOME people into Heaven that are not perfect–who die in a state of mortal sin–they’re sent to Hell!

And the reason the devil pushes the Once Saved always saved garbage 1500 YEARS AFTER Christ is so that people will go for an EASY way–not worry about whether they are in a state of mortal sin or not–and die in that state so they can then go to Hell with him!

Once Saved Always Saved HELPS Satan win souls for Hell!

If you believe in Once Saved Always Saved you are committing the sin of PRESUMPTION against the Holy Spirit. If you indeed know that this is a mortal sin–freely committ the sin–and committ it not caring about the consequences then you are in a state of mortal sin.

Die in that state and you will burn in Hell FOREVER!

If you want to go to Hell believe in and get others to believe in the mortal sin of presumption against the Holy Spirit by believing in Once Saved Always saved.

Christ’s Church didn’t believe that garbage for 1500 years!

Do you really want to bet your soul that God allowed the Catholic Church to be WRONG about that and that he allowed people all over the world to believe what was wrong for 1500 years and are you willing to chance going to Hell over it?!!!

God didn’t give ANYONE the Authority to teach that garbage!

Look–you’ve got a brain–when a deal is too easy to believe isn’t it because it shouldn’t be believed?!

And just remember the same people that don’t OBEY Jesus’ LITERAL word and Eat His body and drink His blood which HE SAYS are “true food” and true drink"–NOT symbolic food and drink–these SAME people are telling you to believe in Once saved always saved.

WHY should you believe people who DON’T believe Jesus?

Why should you believe people who don’t believe in eating Jesus’ body and blood and because of that according to Jesus DON’T have life in them?!

Read about the early christians and you’re not going to hear them write the garbage that Calvin wrote over 15 centuries later.

Should you believe him and that the church got it wrong all those centuries or should you believe the Catholic Church?

Rejection of authority is nothing new–the Eucharist deniers LEFT Jesus in John 6:66 and some of the Israelites rebelled against Moses’ leadership in the Old Testament.

Those Protestants against God given authority didn’t have authority back then and they don’t have it now!

The same people that deny that Jesus gave the disciples the ability to FORGIVE and RETAIN sin after He breathed on them are the same people that want you to believe in Once Saved Always Saved and to NOT believe in such a thing as Mortal sin.

Ask yourself–does Satan want you to believe in the easy way of Once Saved Always saved or does he want you to OBEY St. Paul and WORK out your salvation with “Fear and trembling”?

Do you have the FEAR of God or do you have God in the bag?

Which way seems to you to be the NARROW way that leads to eternal life?

If you bet your soul on Once Saved Always Saved and are wrong you burn in Hell forever–if you don’t believe in Once Saved Always saved and “WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling”–do you think that you have a better or worse chance of going to Heaven and avoiding Hell?

Is Once Saved Always saved worth betting your eternal soul over and is it worth BETTING against the Catholic Church that taught against it for 1500 years?!

You won’t find Calvinism and Once Saved Always Saved when people were willing to be fed to the lions for Christ–the church didn’t teach that LIE back then–research it for yourself and see,

And when you see that are you still going to bet your eternal soul on Once Saved Always saved?

The choice is yours–the Easy way of Once Saved Always saved or the Narrow gate that leads to eternal life that is much harder and requires a person to CONTINUE in God’s grace until death?

Heaven or Hell?

Which way are you willing to bet your eternal soul on?

 

[Darryl_B]

Jerry-Jet. Agreed. Nicely put. So thanks, it really is time for the new evangelism.

 

[fhansen]

Eruvanda, OldProf is obsessed, as many people are, with the notion that 1) the will of God regarding salvation can be correctly determined by reference to scripture alone, and further, 2) that his particular methodology, systematic theology, guarantees, for all practical purposes, an infallible understanding of that will. If you’ve progressed even a tiny amount past this point then it’s too late for you because you already know that scripture cannot interpret itself-only the Holy Spirit can do so infallibly, and that adds a whole new challenge to one’s search-and to an understanding of where authority must actually be found. But until one understands this virtually no amount of counter-arguments will convince them or deter them away from their obstinately unreasonable stance.

 

[Eruvande]

I have always been taught by scripture alone, so any other view is quite difficult to look at objectively. Bear with me, I am trying to have an open mind.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Eruvande: Say it’s 36AD and 3 years since Jesus ascended into Heaven and there is no New Testament.

Who would you believe?

Who do you think would have authority if say two christians were arguing and sincerely wanted to know the truth?

Would you believe what the disciples orally told you? Would that be authoritative for you?

If it would be then that would be belief based on sacred Tradition.

It would be based on the authority that Jesus gave the disciples.

No sola scriptura and that is how God wanted it.

God wants us to trust the teaching authority of the church.

Later on God give us the New Testament scriptures but we would still have the church to INTERPRET them.

Like changing the sabbath from Saturday until Sunday–who had the authority–the disciples or the old Jewish religion?

Circumcision–who had authority–the Old Jewish religion or the apostles?

The scriptures are a great gift to us–the teaching authority of the church is a great thing that God gave us–and the traditions are also a great thing.

Like why was the order of the New Testament gospels–Matthew, Mark, Luke, and then John? Sacred tradition–that’s the way the church wanted the order of those different gospels to be in. Now you won’t get a video of the times when that was implemented but the Holy Spirit was guiding the church into (ALL TRUTH) like Jesus promised.

The same thing is still happening today!

Sacred Scripture + the teaching authority of the church’s magisterium + sacred tradition = Truth revealed by God through His church for the salvation of souls!

 

[OldProf]

The bible does not teach that lie! Any branches that are united to Christ and have His saving life in them–if they don’t bear fruit and ABIDE in Him can be cut off and BURNED!

That’s SAVED people folks and anyone who tells you different is LYING! snip …

Jerry-Jet, please quit ranting. What you are doing is providing a misinterpretation of John 15. Deal with this:

John 10:22-30 teaches about Jesus sheep, and these really are saved people. Here it is:

22 At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

So we know who are NOT Jesus’ sheep, and we know who are. Jesus’ sheep have eternal life. Jesus’ sheep will never perish. In fact, a bit more exegesis on “never” in verse 28 clearly tells us that they will “never, not now or at any future time, perish.”

That is a STRONG NEVER! Jerry-Jet, can you deal with that? The sheep have eternal life and never, not now or at any future time, perish. So we ALL can agree that this is exactly what Jesus is teaching here, correct?

Eruvande, you ask, “What must I do to be saved?” The biblical answer is you must recognize that you are a sinner in need of a Savior. You need to repent of your sins and believe in Jesus Christ. Then you will be saved and good works will flow from your salvation.

You also wonder about the assurance of salvation. You wonder how you can know if you are one of Jesus’ sheep - a VERY GOOD and important question. I mentioned the Evidence Lists above, but please see my post #72:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=658668&highlight=OldProf&page=5

Read it carefully and review the ensuing discussion there - it should be very helpful based on your questions given so far on this thread.

Regards, OldProf

 

[Jerry-Jet]

It is true that no one can SNATCH them out of Jesus’ hand. The passage no where says that Jesus will not allow thoser in His hands the freedom to leave if that is what they want!

Jesus’ sheep hear Jesus’ voice and follow Him. such sheep would NEVER DISOBEY the voice of Jesus and refuse to eat his Body and his blood–such disobeying sheep are obviously NOT the sheep that jesus will, give eternal life to!

The sheep that will NEVER perish are the ELECT but ONLY Jesus knows who they are.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for us to know with certainty who the elect are. would you be able to state EXACTLY which members of your own church are the ELECT Old Prof and which ones are FAUX believers? How are you able to do that–can you see inside their souls?

Tell me Old Prof–the disciples of Jesus who LEFT him in John 6:66 because they chose not to believe his teaching about Eating his body and drinking his blood–were they His sheep or not?

Was Judas His sheep or not?

Practically it makes no difference to us as we live our lives that the Elect will be saved if we never know if we are the elect or not.

Of course Jesus knows who will be PERSEVERING when their lives end–but the people themselves–during the years of their lives can moved from saved to unsaved to saved–the fact that Jesus KNOIWS whether they will be in a state of MORTAL SIN or a state of grace–that doesn’t inform them of how they will wind up–it’s like the day of judgement–the fact that God knows the exact day and hour doesn’t mean that we know it.

And since we don’t know it we have to live our lives like it could come at anytime.

And while it is true that good works will flow from salvation it doesn’t mean that at ALL TIMES after salvation that they will flow–sometimes people will mortally sin–when that happens the good works STOP FLOWING.

Initial Salvation does not seal a soul–it is the totality of the salvific journey of life that seals salvation. Jesus knows already what the totality is for every one.

The fact that He knows it does not mean that we know it. The fact that he gives his sheep eternal life does not mean that we know if we are one of his persevering sheep. We might have indeed started the salvation journey–that doesn’t mean that we know already whether we will complete the salvation journey.

The one thing that is KNOWABLE is that people who don’t Eat Jesus’ Body and drink His blood “Have no life within them”.

Tell us Old Prof: Do you Eat Jesus’ Body which is “True food” and Drink Jesus’ Blood which is “true drink”?

Do you obey St. Paul and “DISCERN the body” before you approach the Lord’s table?

Note that St. Paul didn’t say the SYMBOL of Jesus’ body–do you DISCERN Christ’s body and then proceed to Eat it?

Jesus said that you will know a tree by its fruits.

We can be sure that Jesus’ sheep who hear His voice would Eat His body and drink His blood–if they didn’t they would be like those in John 6:66 who quit following Jesus. With no life in them how could they avoid Hell?

All their previous following of Jesus would not save them even though they felt like they were Christ’s sheep because they did follow Jesus–evidently they weren’t His true sheep later on when they quit following Him because the teaching on his Body and Blood was too hard for them to handle.

Catholics believe in the persevering of the Elect but Catholics also believe that only God knows who they are.

God wants us not to be CERTAIN of how we finish the race–and why is that? so that we will be forced to walk in faith and not by sight all the days of our life for we never know when our deaths will come.

That walking in faith without knowing brings more glory to God than if He were to ASSURE us of how we were to finish the race!