But if I can help them realize that such a list should not be of concern, especially EC’s, where the phrenoma of the Church does not even demand such a list, then I am obligated not to keep quiet, but help them overcome such “scrupulosity” for the sake of their peace.
That’s what I thought.
It seems non-Catholics hide behind this principle for the sake of purposefully misrepresenting the Catholic faith. No doubt Catholics do it too.Not to disagree with Pope Benedict (after all, I don’t know the context in which he may have made the statement that Gary referenced), but I find it incredibly hard to see how the primary problem in Catholic-Orthodox relations is a lack of love, not because that couldn’t be improved or made more explicit in the context of discussion (certainly it could and should), but because doctrinal disagreement does not mean that you don’t love the person you disagree with. Certainly it strikes Catholics as massively unfair when Protestants argue that Catholics are hateful as a rule, as they sometimes do. We must remember first that, regardless of how vociferous any individual may be in disagreement, the churches themselves both recognize a lot of shared history, doctrine, and (most importantly, in my eyes) saints. This is a basis for discussion, too, and one that I think might prove more fruitful in terms of making real progress with Orthodox Christians, as love should be given freely even in the absence of such agreement, since we are Christians and that is what we do.
I agree. On the other hand, just because one does not understand nor accept the teaching of a particular Church is no reason to accuse that Church of proposing “new revelation.” Though you may not accept what you perceive to be “novel” teachings of the Catholic Church, nor accept our appeal to the sources and/or interpretations of those sources, at least we do claim that our teachings are found in Scripture and the Fathers (unlike, say, the Mormons who readily admit to new revelation). So the “continuing revelation” jab is awefully polemic and does not advance any dialogue.
I have done nothing of the sort but that you feel I do because I do not swallow your reasoning. I’m sorry, Mardukm, but until you drop this way of thinking that you apparently embrace wherein the Catholic Church doesn’t do X because it doesn’t say it does X (which has been challenged by others, including fellow Catholics, cf. your thread about infallibility and ecumenical council), I’m going to have to maintain that you are the one who is hiding behind things: official documents and sources and your own interpretation of them as the infallible law of the church, no matter how much they conflict with reality.
That is my experience also. When I entered the Easten Catholic Church, it was as if my eyes were opened for the first time! I felt like scales had fallen from my eyes! For almost four decades, the RCC did not even hint at the exsistence of the East–not even Her own Eastern part! As I became acclimated to the ancient Liturgy and the rich patristic teachings–it was a natural transition into Holy Orthodoxy for me and my family.
I consistently ask for examples of this supposed “reality,” but non-Catholics and certain Catholics alike consistently fail to provide them. You certainly have failed to do so. I readily admit when there are problems. But I notice non-Catholics simply like to extrapolate or exaggerate them for some agenda that I used to possess myself - that is why I disagree with a lot of your (and other non-Catholics’) rhetoric - because I was there.
That’s fine. You can focus on what you think the Catholic Church teaches all you want. But that still does not mean it is what the Catholic Church actually teaches.
What the Church ACTUALLY teaches does matter, because it is the standard we can point to in hope of achieving. Because there are many sinners in the Church, are you going to say the Church teaches others to sin? I’m just asking for some consistency here.
I disagree. I will agree with the statement “if anyone is mispresenting the Catholic faith, it is a lot of individual Catholics.” You have no more right to accuse the Catholic Church as a whole for your own experience, as I have no right to accuse the EO Church as a whole for something I might notice in several EO parishes or for what particular EO claim. For example, I’ve visited three different EO parishes. At every one of them, I have noticed families and invdividuals come in late during DL, pray in front of an icon for a period of time, and then leave. Do I have a right to go around saying, “because of my experience, then I know the EO teaches that such behavior is OK”? I know of several Coptic parishes who have a second, very shortened Mass just for visitors. Should I accuse the COC as a whole of breaking with Tradition and giving in to modernism?
I am barely old enough to remember the pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic Church. In my opinion, the second Vatican Counsel began the protestantization of the Roman Catholic Church.
Is that all you got?
Mardukm, I was not born yesterday. I know that any example I bring from what I have personally experienced will be dealt with so as to make it an aberration unique to that particular situation, because that is what it is. I recognize that from the get-go and hence decide that it is just as well to keep silent. But I should point out to you that what I am talking about is not so much a particular incident, but the pattern that I observed across the entire Catholic church such as I was involved with it, and what this pattern says about the disconnect between the pronouncements from on high and the actual, everyday life of the church. If you don’t see this discrepancy, then you must go to the only Catholic church in the entire world that is absolutely free of problems. As you rightly point out elsewhere, problems are also present in the Orthodox churches that need to be dealt with, but I ask you: Are of anything like the same magnitude as what is found in the Catholic churches? I do not think they are. As I have written elsewhere, it is not about the search for a perfect church. It is, given my past experience, the search for an orthodox and consistent church. The Roman Catholic church is not that church, and since it dictates to all the others by virtue of its head bishop being also taken as the head bishop across the entire communion, the Eastern and Oriental Catholic churches are not that church either.
How is it on God’s green earth exaggerating if I report what I personally witnessed? You think I witnessed these things with foreknowledge that I would someday be outside of the RC communion? Heck no! That’s precisely why I tried out a Byzantine Catholic church after it became to much to lie to myself every single day about the Latin Church! And what I found in the Byzantine Catholic Church was much the same sort of disconnect between the stated operating principles and the daily operation as I had found in the Latin Church. It took a different form, but it was but a symptom of the same root problem. Again, I saw a pattern arise out of a multitude of individual experiences.
Likewise, you can focus on what the official documents and pronouncements say, but that does not mean that’s what the Catholic Church actually believes in, as evidenced by its actions at the very highest of levels.
I agree with this in principle, but when it is a standard that is followed nowhere, what difference does it make? “If you love Me you will keep My commandments”, remember?
And I also am asking for some consistency, but not just in an argument on the internet!
I’m not in the business of trying to point out deficiencies in practices of individual parishes regularly like you and others here, and then making gross generalizations about a particular Church as a whole from my own limited experiences.Is that all you got?
I have seen everything from dancing ballerinas to clown Masses in RC’ism…and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
Oh…and your little side-bar about coming in late during DL and leaving early and the Coptic shortened Liturgy was an example of “not pointing out deficiencies?” :nope:
I’ve been to maybe about 10 different Latin parishes, and I’ve never observed these extravagances. I’ve seen them online - maybe 4 or 5 distinct instances. Hardly a basis for me to extrapolate that it is the standard in the Catholic Church.
I doubt it is present to such a magnitude in Orthodox Churches. But do you know how many Latin Catholic churches there are in the world, and how many Latin Masses there are. Percentage wise, I am pretty sure these aberrations represent less than 1/1000 of a percent of all the Latin Masses in the world.
You can report your individual experience. You are exaggerating if you extrapolate it to the whole of the Latin Catholic Church, because -face it - you haven’t been to all the Latin Catholic Churches around the world and to all the Masses. I’'m not claiming you need to go to all Masses to demonstrate your claim. I am simply asserting that your personal experience is not enough for you to exaggerate your experience as representative of the Catholic Church as a whole.
I understand that it was enough for you in particular to leave the Church, but you still have no basis to claim that it represents the Catholic Church as a whole.
Can you give an example of an official document or pronouncement that the Catholic Church as a whole does not believe in because of actions “at the very highest level?” If you can, I would like 5 specific examples. I just want to see if your extrapolations can be substantiated.
Show me a Church that has perfectly kept this exhortation from the Lord. Please.
Yes, I can all agree with this. On the other hand, until you can show me a Church that has perfectly kept this teaching, then your arguments against the Catholic Church in particular don’t really have much traction.
I didn’t point them out as “deficiencies.” If you perceive them to be so, look to your own mind for any reprehensible traits. I didn’t use those examples to put down or condemn those Churches, as I explcitly stated (unlike you and others often do with the Latin CC, I might add).Oh…and your little side-bar about coming in late during DL and leaving early and the Coptic shortened Liturgy was an example of “not pointing out deficiencies?” :nope:
I should not have responded in kind to make a point…but seriously…your tactics are rather reprehensible.
Want to see photos of the churchs and their names? I fail to see the wonderment of all this. Or the value in placing to fault that situation. Its a two way street my friend.