What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[rinnie]

Anna read the Scripture Who is the Pilar of All Truth.

We know Christ is the Pilar of All truth. Scripture states the CHURCH is the Pilar of All truth. Because Christ and the Church are One united in the Holy Spirit.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hi Anna…

What Rinnie is referring to is that the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ…the Church is as a sacrament in itself.

A sacrament is a visible, concrete sign containing the inner reality of Jesus Christ…His grace therein.

I can experience Christ in the gathering of Protestants who call on Him…He is present, His Spirit is active and at work…healing, restoring them in Christ. There are people in the world who are just sincerely unable to understand the teachings of the Catholic Church, who, nevertheless, work for good will, who are honest, who are sincere, who treat their neighbor as they wished others would treat them…they live by the golden rule, they treat other people with respect and love, and try to be understanding and reciprocal…we place them in God’s mercy…and they have been in God’s mercy since the very beginning of mankind.

So we let hte Lord decide who enters heaven, and I do not know if I willl be there, I hope I will,…the Church can explain Christ, can bring us Christ through the Sacraments, the Church can guide us in the Word of God, the Church can help us live out the Gospel, but the Church in herself cannot save us or judge us.

Only the Lord is the Author of salvation and we must leave it up to Him as to who enters eternal life or not.

Because the Church is a breathing, living organiism based on the life of Christ therein, the Church based on the life of Christ is Christ as a universal body of believers is Christ present to the world in the Word and in the Eucharistic assembly and the profession of faith.

When it comes to holiness and doing God’s will, before God’s eyes we are all on same footing…Ecclesiastics, men and women…no one has the monopoly on holiness. We are on equal footing. The issue is fidelity to the life God has called us…because by grace in fidelity to Jesus Christ we are saved, enduring in Him to the end.

That is why I say that we recognize when the Lord Jesus is moving through the papacy and His bishops and us…it is the Holy Spirit at work through the entire Church, and the ecclesiastics check out and insure the Spirit is truly from the Lord and define it. We live out the Lord as laity and the ecclesiastics shepherd us. If they are not acting as true shepherds, we know and let them know.

But we are blessed having many holy popes going back many years…The Church reformed herself through the Holy Spirit, always ready to teach us many things.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Simple Anna Christ himself tells you he is sending HIS Spirit the Holy Spirit to lead the Church into all Truth. The Church and Christ are one just as a bride and a bridegroom become united into ONE SPIRIT!!

This is Only ONE HOLY CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH just like there is ONLY ONE GOD AND ONE HOLY SPIRIT!!

The Church is not many. The CHurch is one. ONE IN CHRIST!!

Anna read the Scripture Who is the Pilar of All Truth.

We know Christ is the Pilar of All truth. Scripture states the CHURCH is the Pilar of All truth. Because Christ and the Church are One united in the Holy Spirit.

rinnie,

There is a difference between the bride of Christ-the Body of Christ-the universal Church becoming one with Christ, and a claim that the CC is Christ, Himself. Maybe that is not what you were saying. It just sounded that way.

I agree that Christ is visible in the universal body of believers, and Christ is present to the world in the Word and in the Eucharistic assembly and the profession of faith, as Kathleen said. Maybe that is what you mean. Our disagreement may simply be a semantics issue.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi Anna…

What Rinnie is referring to is that the Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ…the Church is as a sacrament in itself.

A sacrament is a visible, concrete sign containing the inner reality of Jesus Christ…His grace therein.

I can experience Christ in the gathering of Protestants who call on Him…He is present, His Spirit is active and at work…healing, restoring them in Christ. There are people in the world who are just sincerely unable to understand the teachings of the Catholic Church, who, nevertheless, work for good will, who are honest, who are sincere, who treat their neighbor as they wished others would treat them…they live by the golden rule, they treat other people with respect and love, and try to be understanding and reciprocal…we place them in God’s mercy…and they have been in God’s mercy since the very beginning of mankind.

So we let hte Lord decide who enters heaven, and I do not know if I willl be there, I hope I will,…the Church can explain Christ, can bring us Christ through the Sacraments, the Church can guide us in the Word of God, the Church can help us live out the Gospel, but the Church in herself cannot save us or judge us.

Only the Lord is the Author of salvation and we must leave it up to Him as to who enters eternal life or not.

Because the Church is a breathing, living organiism based on the life of Christ therein, the Church based on the life of Christ is Christ as a universal body of believers is Christ present to the world in the Word and in the Eucharistic assembly and the profession of faith.

When it comes to holiness and doing God’s will, before God’s eyes we are all on same footing…Ecclesiastics, men and women…no one has the monopoly on holiness. We are on equal footing. The issue is fidelity to the life God has called us…because by grace in fidelity to Jesus Christ we are saved, enduring in Him to the end.

That is why I say that we recognize when the Lord Jesus is moving through the papacy and His bishops and us…it is the Holy Spirit at work through the entire Church, and the ecclesiastics check out and insure the Spirit is truly from the Lord and define it. We live out the Lord as laity and the ecclesiastics shepherd us. If they are not acting as true shepherds, we know and let them know.

But we are blessed having many holy popes going back many years…The Church reformed herself through the Holy Spirit, always ready to teach us many things.

Kathleen,
I understand this; but what you explained does not mean Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church. There is a difference between the bride of Christ-the Body of Christ-the universal Church becoming one with Christ, and a claim that the CC is Christ, Himself.

I agree that Christ is visible in the universal body of believers, and Christ is present to the world in the Word and in the Eucharistic assembly and the profession of faith.

Peace,
Anna

 

[SteveVH]

Kathleen,
I understand this; but what you explained does not mean Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church. There is a difference between the bride of Christ-the Body of Christ-the universal Church becoming one with Christ, and a claim that the CC is Christ, Himself.

I agree that Christ is visible in the universal body of believers, and Christ is present to the world in the Word and in the Eucharistic assembly and the profession of faith.

Peace,
Anna

Anna, its good to run into you again. Hope all is well with you. This is my first glance at this thread so I thought I’d put in my two cents.

My understanding is that the Church is the union of God with man in Jesus Christ. So it does not just lead men to salvation but rather it is salvation, properly speaking. A relationship with Christ means a relationship with His Church. As far as the Church “being Christ”, Christ is certainly the Head and we are the Body. So, in that sense, yes the Church is Christ. It is how He is present in the world, more specifically, He is truly present in the sacraments which are administered by His Church.

Paul’s analogy of the body when explaining Christ’s relationship to His Church is spot on. You cannot separate the Head from the Body.

Blessings to you and your son.

Steve

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, its good to run into you again. Hope all is well with you. This is my first glance at this thread so I thought I’d put in my two cents.

My understanding is that the Church is the union of God with man in Jesus Christ. So it does not just lead men to salvation but rather it is salvation, properly speaking. A relationship with Christ means a relationship with His Church. As far as the Church “being Christ”, Christ is certainly the Head and we are the Body. So, in that sense, yes the Church is Christ. It is how He is present in the world, more specifically, He is truly present in the sacraments which are administered by His Church.

Paul’s analogy of the body when explaining Christ’s relationship to His Church is spot on. You cannot separate the Head from the Body.

Blessings to you and your son.

Steve

Steve,

It’s been ages since we were on a thread together. So nice to hear from you.

I do understand what you are saying; and as I said to rinnie, I think our disagreement was a semantics issue.

When someone says Jesus is the Catholic Church, it causes concern–especially in light of the fact that Anglicans would not exclude other Christians in the reality of the Church as the Body/Bride of Christ; but that is a topic for another thread.

I hope all is well for you and your family as well.

Peace,
Anna

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,

It’s been ages since we were on a thread together. So nice to hear from you.

I do understand what you are saying; and as I said to rinnie, I think our disagreement was a semantics issue.

When someone says Jesus is the Catholic Church, it causes concern–especially in light of the fact that Anglicans would not exclude other Christians in the reality of the Church as the Body/Bride of Christ; but that is a topic for another thread.

I hope all is well for you and your family as well.

Peace,
Anna

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus reveals Himself to the fullest in the Catholic Church. And as such, the Church revealing Christ, can be made as Christ to the world.

But the Church never takes the place of Christ. The church is our Mother, and she guides and nurtures us in Jesus Christ, and provides for us the secure way to Christ.

However, our own salvation as Roman Catholics is conditional, not on necessarily on all the graces His Church provides us…the key is charity.

I am not saying anyone here is not being charitable; they are.

But in Vatican II, the only ones addressed who have their salvation in jeopardy…are Catholics. We may know all the requirements of being Catholic, follow all the Church laws, be very knowledgeable, but if we lack charity, not only will we not be saved, we will be judged more severely. Because we have squandered the graces our Lord has given us, and instead of glorifying Him in love and love of our neighbor, the focus is rule-oriented…and the law of the Church cannot save.

The other point is that, just as science is one long and continuous discovery, so is the Church. The Church is constantly changing and we have to re-encounter Christ with each new era. Again, it is the duty of the bishop and local diocese to keep us up on developments.

And the church is in need of continual renewal…so it is pertinent that we as well voice our concerns when we see elements, or devotions, or movements leading us from the one True God, rather than to Him…it is the duty of the diocese to correct any movements and keep us faithful to the Holy Spirit.

Likewise, we are called to pray and do penance for our ecclesiastics. So when one gets the picture of what the apostolic faith is along with fulfilling our duties as faithful Catholics, really, we are very free people. The Church proposes.

And we are getting to a good balance between the clergy and lay participation. My pastor is really wanting us all to participate as a community…without compromise to our faith given us by the apostles and different vocations…

Deacon Owen Cummings, of whom I have quoted about his remarks a short while ago about dates and context to get the gist of papal pronouncements…came to our parish this last spring and noted how at Mass, the laity was all involved with the pastor preparing for Mass…and we want to be community to one another…to show the face of Christ.

So the Church is as a sacrament, as a living sacrament, but not an end to herself. We must keep our eyes always on Jesus. Only Jesus can save.

Keep you in prayer, Anna…

 

[KathleenGee]

Our instructor taught us that the first degree of truth in the Church is the spirit of the Church…how we are to relate to God today and to the world today…Vatican II is the highest degree of truth in the Church…not the Pope.

I am referring here to the Lumen Gentium…the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. 'The Church is to be means of Christ’s light to the world. She serves the entire world. And the world is called to full unity with the Church. The Church is not complete, however, until the end of time…where the just will be gathered together with the Father in the universal church.

The Church …grows visibly through the power of God in the world…the origin of growth by the blood and water which flowed from the side of Jesus., particularly our Pasch is celebrated at the altar, the work of redemption carried out.

The Holy Spirit not only dwells in the Church but in each one of us, bestowing members in the church various gifts. The Holy Spirit constantly renews the Church, and leads her to perfect union with her Spouse, Jesus.

The Church proclaims and establishes Christ’s kingdom…while she is slowly growing ‘to maturity’…

‘The Church is, accordingly, a sheepfold, the sole and necessary gateway to which is Christ…(Jn. 10:1-11). It is also a flock, of which God foretold that he would himself be the shepherd *Is. 40:11; Ex. 34:11), and whose sheep, although watched by human shepherds, are nevertheless at all times led and brought to pasture by Christ Himself, the Good Shepherd and prince of shepherds (Jn 10:11; Pet. 5:4), who gave his life for his sheep.’

‘The Church is a cultivated field, the tillage of God (1 Cor. 3:9). On that land the ancient olive tree grows whose holy roots were the prophets and in which the reconciliation of Jews and Gentiles ha been brought about and will be brought about again (Rom. 11:13-26). That land, like a choice vinyard, has been planted by the heavenly cultivator (Mt. 21:33-43; Is 5:1). Yet the true vine is Christ who gives life and fruitfulness to the branches, that is to us, who through the Church remain in Christ without whom we can do nothing. (Jn. 15:1-5)…’

‘Christ fills the Church, which is his body and his fullness, with his divine gifts (Eph. 1:22-23) so that it may increase and attain to all the fullness of God (Eph. 3:19)…’

‘This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside its visible confines. Since these are gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, they are forces impelling toward Catholic unity…’ Excerpts from Chapter I of Lumen Gentium.

In Chapter II,…‘When the Roman Pontiff, or the body of bishops together with him, define a doctrine, they make the definition in conformity to Revelation itself, to which all are bound to adhere and to which they are obliged to submit; and this revelation is transmitted integrally either in written form or in oral tradition through legitimate succession of bishops, and above all through the watchful concern of the Roman Pontiff himself.; and through the light of the Spirit of truth it is scrupulously preserved in the Church and unerringly explained.’

And the Roman Pontiff by his office ‘can define a doctrine pertaining to faith and morals, that is co-extensive with the deposit of revelation…’

So we do not hear anything that would contradict the fullness of Revelation.

 

[KathleenGee]

Going to the Catholic catechism about faith…CC150, …‘Christian faith differs from faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.’

What are the signs of revelation…in that the Supreme Pontiff and also with the communion of bishops declaring doctrines…that must fall within Revelation…

CC156…'God willed that external proofs of his Revelation should be joined to the internal helps of the Holy Spirit. Thus the miracles of Christ and the saints, prophecies, the Church’s growth and holiness, and her fruitfulness and stability 'are the most certain signs of divine Revelation, adapted to the intelligence of all; they are motives of credibility, which show that the assent of faith is ‘by no means blind impulse of the
mind.’

CC157. Faith is certain.

CC158. Faith seeks understanding.

CC159. Faith and science; ‘Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason.’

CC160…‘The act of faith is by its nature a free act…’

I. "Lord, Look upon the Faith of Your Church’…

CC168. It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes, and sustains my faith. Everywhere, it is the Church that first confesses the Lord: “Throughout the world the holy Church acclaims you,” as we sing in the hymn, ‘Te Deum’; with her and in her, we are won over and brought to confess: “I believe” “We believe”. It is through the Church that we receive fiath and new life in Christ by baptism. In the Rituale Romanun, the minister of Baptism asks the catechumen, “What do you ask of God’s Church?” And the answer is, Faith"…“What does faith offer you?” “Eternal life.”

Finally in CC169…'Salvation comes from God alone, but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and --‘not in the Church’ as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is ‘our’ mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

We put our trust and faith in God alone Who is the author of salvation. Our focus is on God while we acknowledge the Holy Father and his role as successor to Peter.

 

[rinnie]

Anna when I say Christ is the Church it is not a building.

The Church is many things and above all the RCC teaches it is also a mystery.

The Church is one, simply because of her source the unity of God, One because of her founder. Think of this another way. Jesus Christ is the WORD made flesh who came among us to restore the unity of all people and one body.

The same way that the word became Flesh the Church is kind of like that but now through the Holy Spirit. Does that make better sense to you.

The Church is where you will always be guaranteed to find Christ. And you can receive him into you body and soul through the Eucharist. THe Church is the one place you can be sure you will get the ACTUAL bread from HEAVEN. The bread is Holy because Christ is Holy.

It has an essential u nity of worship all are united to ONE saving sacrifice of Christ in the Eucharist.

Even though there are many Church’s there is only one unity in our comminion with Christ thourghout all the world.

Rather I go to commumion a mile from my house or a million miles from my house, I still am in the same commumion with our Lord and with my brothers and sisters all over the world. That is how God wanted it.

 

[rinnie]

That is why we say Anna that the Church is the living CHrist. Because Jesus left us the Church his Holy Spirit is leading us all to Salvation.

That is why Christ is considered the head of the Church because the Church is the visible Christ that unites us all into his body, One body his Church, We all become members of Christ through his body which makes up the Church.

That is why we all become one IN him THROUGH him and WITH him by the Power of the Holy Spirit. It is in the visible Church he makes his presence known and is there in the Eucharist.

That is why we cannot have many Churchs. Because there is only ONE Christ but many members. There is only ONE truth, One teaching and ONE EUcharist.

You can be in one country and me in another but while we are at that same Eucharist we are united to Christ and become not only one with him, but with oneanother.

Do you see now how we see Christ and the Church as one just how we see ourself and Christ becoming one and how we all become one together in Christ?

Again Anna the reason we see the Church as Christ is because of the source. The Holy Spirit and CHrist are one with the Church.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .I think since Unam Sanctam was put on the table of discussion; it is fair to ask the following questions:

Question #1: Is Unam Sanctam, which declares, proclaims, and defines that “it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff,” an infallible teaching?

Question #2: If Unam Sanctam is infallible, did Pope Boniface VIII infallibly define any of the exceptions that are taught today in the CC?

**Question #3: **If Pope Boniface VIII did not define exceptions; at what point in history were “exceptions” infallibly defined?

Since, Pope Eugene IV seems to be saying the same thing, only more sternly; I think it is fair to ask the same questions about the Bull Cantate Domino of 1441.

Pope Eugene IV:
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Question #4: Is the Bull Cantate Domino of 1441 infallible?

Question #5: If it is infallible, did Pope Eugene IV infallibly define any of the exceptions that are taught today in the CC? I can’t imagine that he did. Who is left after “pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics” are professed to be headed into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with the CC.

Question #6: If Pope Eugene IV did not define exceptions; at what point in history were “exceptions” infallibly defined?

If no one answers this time; I will drop it and sign off the thread.

Peace,
Anna

. . . .I will re-frame the questions:

Question #1: Is Unam Sanctam, which declares, proclaims, and defines that “it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff,” an infallible teaching or a non-infallible teaching?

Question #2: If Unam Sanctam is infallible, did Pope Boniface VIII define any of the exceptions (infallibly or non-infallibly) that are taught today in the CC?

**Question #3: **If Pope Boniface VIII did not define exceptions; at what point in history were “exceptions” defined (infallibly or non-infallibly)?

Since, Pope Eugene IV seems to be saying the same thing, only more sternly; I think it is fair to ask the same questions about the Bull Cantate Domino of 1441.

Pope Eugene IV:
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Question #4: Is the Bull Cantate Domino of 1441 an infallible teaching or a non-infallible teaching?

Question #5: If it is infallible, did Pope Eugene IV define (infallibly or non-infallibly) any of the exceptions that are taught today in the CC? I can’t imagine that he did. Who is left after “pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics” are professed to be headed into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with the CC.

Question #6: If Pope Eugene IV did not define exceptions; at what point in history were “exceptions” (infallibly or non-infallibly) defined?

On June 20th, I said, if no one answers my questions, I would sign off the thread.

Since no one has answered, even after I re-framed the questions for mardukm; I’m signing off. I’m not quite sure how to interpret your silence on the questions.

SteveVH, Rinnie, and Kathleen,
I appreciate your posts on the Catholic Church and the Body of Christ. They did help clarify the Catholic view of Christ and the Church.

Peace and blessings to all,
Anna

 

[GaryTaylor]

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hPeUQxOjGYAnsxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0NWhtZGs1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1FJMDI2XzE4Nw–/SIG=12ubo9b83/EXP=1309451838/**http%3a//www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm

Anna you questions all relate to encyclicals which are not infallible. They contain “within” them an infallible sentence which is the dogma of the church in regards to No Salvation.

In summary, while a papal document may contain infallible truths, the entire document is “not infallible”. Infallible truths are discerned by their conformity to the unchanging teachings of the Church…dogma; unless, of course, they are clearly contained in an “ex cathedra” pronouncement, in which case such discernment becomes unnecessary.

No Salvation outside the church extends to Cyprian when the CC and EO were “one” church. Its a dogma of faith and it is infallible. Any dogma of the faith carried foward from scripture is infallible.

There are ONLY ‘two’ “ex cathedra” papal pronouncements made during the last two centuries were contained in “apostolic constitutions,” documents similar to an encyclical but addressed to no one and designed to make statements of law or fact, rather than to discuss an issue as do encyclicals.

It is obvious that, should the Holy Father, in one of his encyclicals, quote some definition of an ecumenical council or some dogmatic definition proposed by himself or by one of his predecessors in the Roman Pontificate, he is uttering an infallibly true statement. Quite manifestly, a previous infallible definition of the Church loses nothing of its infallible character through being quoted in an encyclical letter or in some other utterance of the Holy Father’s ordinary magisterium. As is the case with Bonifice or Lumen Gentium with V-II on No Salvation.

The point at issue was and remains the question as to whether a statement contained in an encyclical letter, and proposed in an authoritative manner in no other document of the Church’s magisterium, can be accepted as not only authoritative but infallible in character…Such as Cyprians NO SALVATION.

What may be considered as the principal arguments militating against the existence of such infallible teachings in the encyclical letters can, I believe be summed up under these four headings:

1. The encyclicals are documents of the Holy Father’s ordinary magisterium, and the Holy Father does not exercise his charism of infallible doctrinal decision in the ordinary magisterium.
2. The Holy Father teaches infallibly only when he speaks ex cathedra, and the encyclical letters are not ex cathedra documents.
3. The Holy Father has the power to speak authoritatively in doctrinal matters without using his charism of infallibility, and the encyclical letters are documents in which he speaks in this way.
4. The Code of Canon Law states explicitly that “nothing is understood to be declared or defined dogmatically unless this be manifestly certain,” and what is stated only in encyclical letters is not manifestly and certainly defined in a dogmatic manner.

And this argument is continued in this link…

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hPeUQxOjGYArMxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0Z3UzZXRpBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1FJMDI2XzE4Nw–/SIG=12omjecj1/EXP=1309451838/**http%3a//www.strobertbellarmine.net/forums/viewtopic.php%3ff=2%26t=319

Here’s Cyprians…which cover’s all in schism or not who spoke on No Salvation. I would assume since its a dogma of faith in the EO and CC, than since there is at present a schism, both would uphold this teaching to date.

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hjEYgxO4yUA40VXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0NWhtZGs1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1FJMDI2XzE4Nw–/SIG=12c7n5go2/EXP=1309456164/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Who finds salvation in the NT- Bible and how? Is everyone saved in the NT who are not Christians? How are Christians saved in the NT? All are called to the ROCK/CHRIST in the NT Corinthians. Which is Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church is “not” teaching many-paths to heaven or salvation. There is “One path”, and its through the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. Which exists on Earth today and has since Christ.

One may find Christ and Salvation in a Russian prison, German concentration camp, during an Islamic act of terrorism. This wouldn’t distract from the church or the Mystical Body of Christ. It means the Holy Spirit is alive and well and seeks those who seek God.

God Bless, Gary

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Gary for your work.

The local bishop provides perspective for the faithful in how we are to apply ourselves to encyclicals and other statements by the Holy Father.

The Catholic Church is the only church established by Jesus Christ, and it is meant to be universal for all people. Baptism is the Catholic rite of incorporating someone into the Church, whether one goes to Mass or another Protestant church. In other words, non-Catholic, baptized Christians are still drawing on the Church through their baptism, through the prayers of the faithful, and other Christians are our separated brethren in Christ.

Christ called Peter to be the rock. And Peter’s role as head has always been in the Church, but it has gone through periods of re-defining itself in face of change in the world around it, such language used in the past when dealing with the subsequent fragmenting of Christianity through new denominations coming forward.

Some how I think people have some kind of image or concept of the Holy Father as he taking the place of God.

 

[Hesychios]

Anna you questions all relate to encyclicals which are not infallible. They contain “within” them an infallible sentence which is the dogma of the church …

This is normal.

The standard acknowledged infallible papal statements are just phrases or paragraphs in larger documents. The rest of the document, being teaching from a bishop of the church in good standing forms part of the ordinary Magisterium, which has to be assumed by Roman Catholics to be correct, but in fact could possibly be incorrect.

According to the theory of Papal infallibility, if a bishop of Rome says formally “we declare and define” that is supposed to be taken as an infallible teaching. He has the last word and discussion or controversy on the subject stops.

 

[Anna_Scott]

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hPeUQxOjGYAnsxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0NWhtZGs1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1FJMDI2XzE4Nw–/SIG=12ubo9b83/EXP=1309451838/**http%3a//www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm

Anna you questions all relate to encyclicals which are not infallible. They contain “within” them an infallible sentence which is the dogma of the church in regards to No Salvation.

In summary, while a papal document may contain infallible truths, the entire document is “not infallible”. Infallible truths are discerned by their conformity to the unchanging teachings of the Church…dogma; unless, of course, they are clearly contained in an “ex cathedra” pronouncement, in which case such discernment becomes unnecessary.

No Salvation outside the church extends to Cyprian when the CC and EO were “one” church. Its a dogma of faith and it is infallible. Any dogma of the faith carried foward from scripture is infallible.

There are ONLY ‘two’ “ex cathedra” papal pronouncements made during the last two centuries were contained in “apostolic constitutions,” documents similar to an encyclical but addressed to no one and designed to make statements of law or fact, rather than to discuss an issue as do encyclicals.

It is obvious that, should the Holy Father, in one of his encyclicals, quote some definition of an ecumenical council or some dogmatic definition proposed by himself or by one of his predecessors in the Roman Pontificate, he is uttering an infallibly true statement. Quite manifestly, a previous infallible definition of the Church loses nothing of its infallible character through being quoted in an encyclical letter or in some other utterance of the Holy Father’s ordinary magisterium. As is the case with Bonifice or Lumen Gentium with V-II on No Salvation.

The point at issue was and remains the question as to whether a statement contained in an encyclical letter, and proposed in an authoritative manner in no other document of the Church’s magisterium, can be accepted as not only authoritative but infallible in character…Such as Cyprians NO SALVATION.

What may be considered as the principal arguments militating against the existence of such infallible teachings in the encyclical letters can, I believe be summed up under these four headings:

1. The encyclicals are documents of the Holy Father’s ordinary magisterium, and the Holy Father does not exercise his charism of infallible doctrinal decision in the ordinary magisterium.
2. The Holy Father teaches infallibly only when he speaks ex cathedra, and the encyclical letters are not ex cathedra documents.
3. The Holy Father has the power to speak authoritatively in doctrinal matters without using his charism of infallibility, and the encyclical letters are documents in which he speaks in this way.
4. The Code of Canon Law states explicitly that “nothing is understood to be declared or defined dogmatically unless this be manifestly certain,” and what is stated only in encyclical letters is not manifestly and certainly defined in a dogmatic manner.

And this argument is continued in this link…

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hPeUQxOjGYArMxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0Z3UzZXRpBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOARjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1FJMDI2XzE4Nw–/SIG=12omjecj1/EXP=1309451838/**http%3a//www.strobertbellarmine.net/forums/viewtopic.php%3ff=2%26t=319

Here’s Cyprians…which cover’s all in schism or not who spoke on No Salvation. I would assume since its a dogma of faith in the EO and CC, than since there is at present a schism, both would uphold this teaching to date.

search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7hjEYgxO4yUA40VXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0NWhtZGs1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1FJMDI2XzE4Nw–/SIG=12c7n5go2/EXP=1309456164/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

Who finds salvation in the NT- Bible and how? Is everyone saved in the NT who are not Christians? How are Christians saved in the NT? All are called to the ROCK/CHRIST in the NT Corinthians. Which is Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church is “not” teaching many-paths to heaven or salvation. There is “One path”, and its through the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. Which exists on Earth today and has since Christ.

One may find Christ and Salvation in a Russian prison, German concentration camp, during an Islamic act of terrorism. This wouldn’t distract from the church or the Mystical Body of Christ. It means the Holy Spirit is alive and well and seeks those who seek God.

God Bless, Gary

Gary,

I appreciate all the information and the links; but will you apply all that information to clearly answer the 6 questions? I don’t think that is too much to ask.

When Pope Eugene IV stated, “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches. . . .”; that is not indicative of an infallible teaching?

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

This is normal.

The standard acknowledged infallible papal statements are just phrases or paragraphs in larger documents. The rest of the document, being teaching from a bishop of the church in good standing forms part of the ordinary Magisterium, which has to be assumed by Roman Catholics to be correct, but in fact could possibly be incorrect.

According to the theory of Papal infallibility, if a bishop of Rome says formally “we declare and define” that is supposed to be taken as an infallible teaching. He has the last word and discussion or controversy on the subject stops.

Hesychios,

If that is the case, Pope Eugene IV’s statement would be infallible. He did say, "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches

----- that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

It doesn’t seem that Pope Eugene IV gave any room for exception. If “pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics” are “headed into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels,” who is left for any exception?

According to Pope Eugene IV, you and I are both headed straight to Hell.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Hesychios]

According to Pope Eugene IV, you and I are both headed straight to Hell.

Yes, that is exactly what he meant.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well, we’re back again…

I studied a little on the times and life of Pope Eugene IV. He sold what he had, lived a simple monastic life as pope, had unfeigned piety, and regularity, hated nepotism.

He was dealing with the Basel ecclesiastics who wanted a conciliar form of governing the church rather than the episcopal with one head. In earliest Christian times, the Church adopted the Jewish form of having a bishop rather than the Gentile conciliar model…

Pope Eugene IV wanted the governing of temporal and spiritual concerns to be shared with him.

By the time he died, he had united all of Christiandom back with the Seat of Peter, head of the Church.

Historical times were much more complicated. But he entered a stormy pontificate and he lived out a most stormy pontificate. His decree was affirming Peter as head of the Church in Christ.

Seeing how he actually lived out his life in austerity and holiness, wanted to share temporal and spiritual concerns with the cardinals, and wanted to be faithful to the tradition of the papacy and the head of the church under one person rather than a council, I see him being faithful to Jesus.

He affirmed that the Roman Catholic Church, with the pope as representing the full deposit of faith was being faithful to its mission to fully reveal Christ to mankind.

I do not see him as condemning, but rather fulfilling his role as Servant of Servants and affirming Christ did indeed establish only one church and one head. His own conciliatory position with his own cardinals did not at all reveal an egomanic individual…making himself a god.