What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[rinnie]

By denying his temptation, he does not sin. Are you trying to equate a desire to drink with looking lustfully at someone? These are not equivalent scenarios.

Steve what is the difference. Is wanting to sin mean you are sinless rather you give in to it or not?

 

[rinnie]

When you are perfected in Christ you not only confess your sin, you have to loose the urge to want to sin all together.

When you are a Saint you think of nothing but what Christ wants, pleasing Christ, you put Christ above yourself.

 

[JonNC]

Jon let me do this another way.

Lets say you have a drinking problem. And I said hey Jon right now lets go hit the pub and have a ice cold beer, its 90 out and it would taste soooooo good. Now for you drinking has become a sin because you cannot stop.

Now you say to me oh Rin, I am TEMPTED SO tempted I want to SO BAD, I said come on, one won;t hurt you. Then you say. No Rinn, I can’t.

Do you want to Drink yes or no, or for you sin? Again do you want to? Honestly.

That I did not give into temptation, I have not sinned. I have, instead, depended on the strength of the Holy Spirit to keep me from sinning… at least this time.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=rinnie;8136627]When you are perfected in Christ you not only confess your sin, you have to loose the urge to want to sin all together.

Yes, the goal we all strive for. The reality of this world, however, is we are both at once saint and sinner.

When you are a Saint you think of nothing but what Christ wants, pleasing Christ, you put Christ above yourself.

Agreed.

Paul speaks to this so well in Romans 7

14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Jon

 

[rinnie]

That I did not give into temptation, I have not sinned. I have, instead, depended on the strength of the Holy Spirit to keep me from sinning… at least this time.

Jon

But see that is what I am saying you did not give in to it. But did you want to? That is my question?

 

[JonNC]

rinnie:
Lets start back to Jesus you said that even Christ did not have the Grace to be not tempted into sin right?

Not what I said, rinnie. Christ exposed Himself to temptation.

Matt 4

1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” 4But he answered, “It is written,

“‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

5Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple 6and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written,

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,’

and

“‘On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”

7Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’” 8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 10Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written,

“‘You shall worship the Lord your God
and him only shall you serve.’”

11Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him

So, when one comes to me with the temptation to drink, knowing it is an addiction for me, if I say, with the help of the Spirit “Be gone, Satan”, how can it be said I sinned?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

But see that is what I am saying you did not give in to it. But did you want to? That is my question?

After 40 days and nights in the desert, He was hungry. He wanted food.

Jon

 

[rinnie]

Lets start back to Jesus you said that even Christ did not have the Grace to be not tempted into sin right?

Not what I said, rinnie. Christ exposed Himself to temptation.

Matt 4

So, when one comes to me with the temptation to drink, knowing it is an addiction for me, if I say, with the help of the Spirit “Be gone, Satan”, how can it be said I sinned?

Jon

Jon do you still have the DESIRE To drink? See what I mean. If you still have the Desire to drink you still have the want in you.

In order to be completely FREE from sin the desire and want have to be gone also.

That is where the Blessed Mother was, she had no DESIRE to sin. Her entire DESIRE was TOTALLY to PLEASE GOD. Nothing else. It was the entire center of her being.

If the desire is gone you have already received the GRACE From God to forego the sin, It is no longer a desire or problem for you.

When the Blessed Mother was saved from Original sin not only did no sin touch her the desire to sin was never there. Not because she was not completely human but becasue her complete desire was to PLEASE God not herself.

WHen you think boy I would LOVE to have a drink but dear Lord give me the Grace to overcome this temptation, the desire for the drink has not left you completely yet. It may not until you die and become perfected in Christ, it may on this earth before you die also. With the Grace of GOD anything is possible.

Your want for the drink puts your desire above the desire to please GOd and be completely free from sin. You are fighting that desire and will win if you continue to get Grace but you are not there yet.

But there will come a day when the desire to have a drink is completely GONE, that is when you know that by the Grace of God you have indeed overcome that sin. THe desire temptation is GONE. The thought is not even an option for you any Longer.

That is how the Blessed Mother was sinless, sure she could be tempted but the desire to sin was not in her.

Hey I gotta roll will talk to you tommorow.

I have been on here TOO LONG.

 

[rinnie]

After 40 days and nights in the desert, He was hungry. He wanted food.

Jon

Which made him completely human, Hunger that is. But his desire for food did not oeverpower his desire to sin. The food was not an option for him. He put his love and want of pleasing GOd even over his own human hunger.

Did he say he wanted to eat the food so bad, but then refused it. No he did not. He said you will never sway me from doing the work of my Father. He said my bread comes from heaven did he not?

 

[PRmerger]

Whence?

Have you read this thread?

The short answer is: Post-schism Rome.

Admittedly, no.

But I don’t understand the “Post-schism Rome” answer. Does that mean Tradition? Does that mean just some group of bishops’ opinions? Does that mean some random theologian got to make his viewpoint that Mary was immaculately conceived a teaching?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Thread hopelessly derailed
Closed