What one author says about the Muslim "religion"

[Agabriel]

The story of Phinehas has been used to condemn mixed-race marriage; the “curse of Ham” has justified racism; various passages from Old and New Testament alike were used to support slavery; in modern times, gay men and women are denied the freedom to marry and raise children. The modern consensus abhors much of this history, but at least some Christians have had both the will and the way to implement oppression that they justified through their religious beliefs.

In the oppressive Middle Eastern countries that we’re talking about, there aren’t too many people doing any electing.

And if you want to talk about the Bible, then why don’t you start a new thread?

 

[ferdie]

=Eleve;5298920]The story of Phinehas has been used to condemn mixed-race marriage; the “curse of Ham” has justified racism; various passages from Old and New Testament alike were used to support slavery; in modern times, gay men and women are denied the freedom to marry and raise children. The modern consensus abhors much of this history, but at least some Christians have had both the will and the way to implement oppression that they justified through their religious beliefs.

Are these Christian doctrines used specifically in our law to discriminate minorities? Maybe you are you talking about the so called Christians like some neo-nazis, white supremacists who distort the bible to justify their bigotry. I don’t think we have any law here in the US that uses Christian doctrines to oppress the minorities.

In the oppressive Middle Eastern countries that we’re talking about, there aren’t too many people doing any electing.

Iran holds elections, so does Yemen. I think Kingdom of SA started holding elections in lower gov’t, but women can’t still vote. PLO holds election, I think, I’m not sure.

 

[Eleve]

Look. I both understand and abhor the fact that there is acute, ongoing oppression in Islamic countries. I acknowledge that Islam has had a disturbing role in supporting this oppression, and I realize now that I’ve been a bit silly in trying to force a comparison between Islam and Christianity. My main concern is that we not uncritically pile on criticism of Islam to the extent that it becomes hatred of Islam.

And, no, I am not a Muslim. You’re silly, Agabriel.

 

[Agabriel]

Look. I both understand and abhor the fact that there is acute, ongoing oppression in Islamic countries. I acknowledge that Islam has had a disturbing role in supporting this oppression, and I realize now that I’ve been a bit silly in trying to force a comparison between Islam and Christianity. My main concern is that we not uncritically pile on criticism of Islam to the extent that it becomes hatred of Islam.

And, no, I am not a Muslim. You’re silly, Agabriel.

I apologize.

The problem is that when you do delve into Islam, you will hate it unless one wants to do atrocities against ‘unbelievers’. Because it is indeed ok to do atrocities (kill, torture, assasinate, steal from, deceive, etc) to unbelievers. It is a part of the ‘good works’ that will get Muslims to heaven.

Muhammed distorts, or twists, good and bad, evil and holy, hate and love in Islam. It is good to hate unbelievers. Not like us hating Islam - no, they HATE the individuals that chose not to believe in Islam.

And it isn’t easy to choke through the Quran.

In fact, without the hadiths (sometimes called the sunnah) and the Sira (the biography of Muhammed), the Quran makes little sense. It is one liners, rants, and can basically make it really hard to get through.

Sometimes you will hear from Muslims that the hadiths are not valid, or Ishaq is not valid - but they are told to confuse the Quran and our understanding of it. The hadiths and sira enhance the Quran and like I wrote, make it understandable.

Bukhari is the most esteemed of the authors. Muslim was his student. And the 3rd esteemed set of hadith are from Dawud. In fact, their Six Pillars wouldn’t exist without the hadith (they usually say there are only Five to us infidels because they don’t want us to know that waging (violent) Jihad is the 6th pillar).

Ishaq’s biography and Tabari’s history are composed entirely by Hadith. They are Sunnah and thus Islamic scripture. Their Hadith feature chains of reporters and they are in sync with other collections and with the koran. The sole difference is the arrangement. Ishaq and Tabari chose Hadith that could be presented in the order they occurred. In fact, without Ishaq and Tabari, Islam would not exist and Muhammed would be unknown. They alone provide the religion’s skeleton, its context and chronology. Without this grounding in place and time, the koran is indecipherable, and the remaining Hadith are of diminshed value. It would like being a Christian without the Gospels.

The Tabari translators tell us: ‘Muhammed IBn Ishaq was the most influential and earliest biographer of the Prophet. His Sira became the standard treatment of the events of Muhammed’s life.’

But sadly, Ishaq’s original has been lost. What remains was edited by Hisham 65 years later. And Hisham said" Ishaq:69 ‘I am omitting things which Ishaq recorded in this book. I have omitted things which are disgraceful to discuss and matters which would distress certain people.’ (one can only imagine what was omitted!)

Keep in mind that the Quran tells them to intentionally deceiving us to know the Quran: 6:25 6:110 17:45-76

 

[planten]

He says further on:

"Islamism is a 21st century poltical project drvien by seventh-century idealogy. That’s a potent combination of ancient and modern. In Europe and North America, incendiary imams, - uneducated and knowing barely a word of the language spoken by the society in which they life - have nevertheless done a grand job at re-primitivizing second and third generation Western Muslims.

Not all of them, of course, but how many does it have to be to become a problem?"

That author may be misguided. We could name Karen Armstrong who recently wrote a good book about Islam. We could also name maurice Bucaille (frenchman) who wrote the book :“Bible Science and Quran.” They were non Muslim authors. Most likely they were christians.

 

[elwill]

Look. I both understand and abhor the fact that there is acute, ongoing oppression in Islamic countries. I acknowledge that Islam has had a disturbing role in supporting this oppression, and I realize now that I’ve been a bit silly in trying to force a comparison between Islam and Christianity. My main concern is that we not uncritically pile on criticism of Islam to the extent that it becomes hatred of Islam.

And, no, I am not a Muslim. You’re silly, Agabriel.

how islam has had disturbing in supporting the opression ?

 

[dzheremi]

In your own country, Elwill, you don’t wonder why there is unrest among the Christians and their Muslim neighbors? Not everywhere, of course, but it is there, isn’t it? It is not from any foundational doctrine in Christianity, but from foundational doctrines in Islam that treat Copts like second class citizens even as they make up 10% of the population, and were in Egypt prior to any Muslim arrival (or the establishment of Islam, for that matter).

Islam supports the oppression of non-Muslims. This is not to say that all Muslims necessarily do, but their religion certainly does. You just do not see it because you are a Muslim, so to you everything related to Islam is only good for everyone.

 

[elwill]

In your own country, Elwill, you don’t wonder why there is unrest among the Christians and their Muslim neighbors? Not everywhere, of course, but it is there, isn’t it? It is not from any foundational doctrine in Christianity, but from foundational doctrines in Islam that treat Copts like second class citizens even as they make up 10% of the population, and were in Egypt prior to any Muslim arrival (or the establishment of Islam, for that matter).

in my country , i never wondered about the unrest between muslims and christians becuase i don’t feel it
actually my floor consisting of 4 apartments , 3 of them are christians and we ( my family) have a very good relation with everyone of them

Islam supports the oppression of non-Muslims. This is not to say that all Muslims necessarily do, but their religion certainly does. You just do not see it because you are a Muslim, so to you everything related to Islam is only good for everyone.

what do you mean by that islam supports the oppression of nonmuslims ? do you mean that allah will love me if i persecuted them but it’s just me who don’t know that ?

 

[dzheremi]

That’s wonderful. Of course not everyone has problems getting along, but unfortunately your apartment building, even if it is representative of how the majority of Egyptians live, does not diminish the historic and continuing persecution of Copts at the hands of Muslims who are perhaps not as enlightened as you are. Do you remember the Abu Fana monastery destruction only a little while ago? That was a “land dispute”, ostensibly, but like many places where Islam and Christianity rub shoulders, it took on political and religious overtones. Some of the monks were kidnapped and tortured when they would not convert to Islam. This is not an isolated incident…just much more high-profile internationally than a lot of incidents involving Muslim-Christian relations in Egypt (or elsewhere, for that matter).

I have no idea if Allah will love you more if you persecute Christians. I hope not. I only know that the Qur’an tells you to fight non-believers until they submit to Islamic authority and are brought low, and that this humilation applies specifically to the “People of the Book” - Jews and Christians. So yes, Islam specifically supports the oppression of Christians (and others), and provides a supposedly “holy” framework by which to do it.

 

[elwill]

That’s wonderful. Of course not everyone has problems getting along, but unfortunately your apartment building, even if it is representative of how the majority of Egyptians live, does not diminish the historic and continuing persecution of Copts at the hands of Muslims who are perhaps not as enlightened as you are. Do you remember the Abu Fana monastery destruction only a little while ago? That was a “land dispute”, ostensibly, but like many places where Islam and Christianity rub shoulders, it took on political and religious overtones. Some of the monks were kidnapped and tortured when they would not convert to Islam. This is not an isolated incident…just much more high-profile internationally than a lot of incidents involving Muslim-Christian relations in Egypt (or elsewhere, for that matter).

so are you just talking about odd accedents which happened by some persons in the history of egypt ?
sorry , but by saying that islam supporting the oppression i thought that you refer to the beliefs of muslims in quran or sunnah

I have no idea if Allah will love you more if you persecute Christians. I hope not.

i know that allah will punish me if i persecuted any human_being

I only know that the Qur’an tells you to fight non-believers until they submit to Islamic authority and are brought low, and that this humilation applies specifically to the “People of the Book” - Jews and Christians. So yes, Islam specifically supports the oppression of Christians (and others), and provides a supposedly “holy” framework by which to do it.

yes , may be you know this verse and may be you read it , but did you ever take under your consideration the understanding of muslims and scientists of islam for such verses ?

 

[RobbyS]

Yeah, I’m going to stick with the Church. You believe what ever you want.

Obviously the Vatican is trying to make nice with Muslims, although not as much as the secularists. The pope was vilified by both the secularists and the Muslims for his Regensberg address, where he dared touch on the irrationality of the Muslim faith. President Obama flattered Islam in his Cairo speech by speaking of their contribution to science, but the plain fact is that speculative science has not flourished in Muslim countries, not since the Middle Ages when for the first time since the Conquest ther number of Muslims in Muslim states exceeded the numbers of Christians and Jews. Secularists decry Christian fundamentalism, but Islam is inherently fundamentalist. Secularists are enraged by Christian adherence to “hard” dogmas such as the Incarnation, and give the Muslims a pass because for its Unitarianism. But it has no room for their worship of Reason. Like the Arab and later Turkish conquerers, modern Muslims will live off the sciences of the conquered peoples, whether it be Christian or Zorasterian Arameans, Greeks, ir Hindus, but their faith will contribute nothing, because it conceded nothing to the natural order of things. Their version of God does not bind himself to obey the laws of reason, and Providence, in their thought, is that of an Oriental despot. Arbitrary government is normal in Muslim cultures where princes are accountible only to Allah and Allah is kinder to successful despots than to just princes. If by the end of the 21st Century, the majority of people
in Europe are Muslim, that arts and science of that place will begin to wither, because science especially can expect nothing from a faith that will not give it scope. The dreamy hopes of endless progress will come to an end in a society that will live off the capital of the past.

 

[RobbyS]

I apologize.

The problem is that when you do delve into Islam, you will hate it unless one wants to do atrocities against ‘unbelievers’. Because it is indeed ok to do atrocities (kill, torture, assasinate, steal from, deceive, etc) to unbelievers. It is a part of the ‘good works’ that will get Muslims to heaven.

Muhammed distorts, or twists, good and bad, evil and holy, hate and love in Islam. It is good to hate unbelievers. Not like us hating Islam - no, they HATE the individuals that chose not to believe in Islam.

And it isn’t easy to choke through the Quran.

In fact, without the hadiths (sometimes called the sunnah) and the Sira (the biography of Muhammed), the Quran makes little sense. It is one liners, rants, and can basically make it really hard to get through.

Sometimes you will hear from Muslims that the hadiths are not valid, or Ishaq is not valid - but they are told to confuse the Quran and our understanding of it. The hadiths and sira enhance the Quran and like I wrote, make it understandable.

Bukhari is the most esteemed of the authors. Muslim was his student. And the 3rd esteemed set of hadith are from Dawud. In fact, their Six Pillars wouldn’t exist without the hadith (they usually say there are only Five to us infidels because they don’t want us to know that waging (violent) Jihad is the 6th pillar).

Ishaq’s biography and Tabari’s history are composed entirely by Hadith. They are Sunnah and thus Islamic scripture. Their Hadith feature chains of reporters and they are in sync with other collections and with the koran. The sole difference is the arrangement. Ishaq and Tabari chose Hadith that could be presented in the order they occurred. In fact, without Ishaq and Tabari, Islam would not exist and Muhammed would be unknown. They alone provide the religion’s skeleton, its context and chronology. Without this grounding in place and time, the koran is indecipherable, and the remaining Hadith are of diminshed value. It would like being a Christian without the Gospels.

The Tabari translators tell us: ‘Muhammed IBn Ishaq was the most influential and earliest biographer of the Prophet. His Sira became the standard treatment of the events of Muhammed’s life.’

But sadly, Ishaq’s original has been lost. What remains was edited by Hisham 65 years later. And Hisham said" Ishaq:69 ‘I am omitting things which Ishaq recorded in this book. I have omitted things which are disgraceful to discuss and matters which would distress certain people.’ (one can only imagine what was omitted!)

Keep in mind that the Quran tells them to intentionally deceiving us to know the Quran: 6:25 6:110 17:45-76

Modernists who attack traditional Christianity thru their endless speculation of the so-called historical Jesus and deny the historical value of the Gospels, somehow are ignorant of the fact that we have almost no knowledge of the “historical Mohammed.” All the sources are Muslim and none are comtemporary with him or even the early Caliphs. The same school textbooks that are so skpetical about Christ are gullible about Mohammed.

 

[lemonbeam]

Is Islam or Christianity the fastest growing Religion in Africa?

 

[dzheremi]

so are you just talking about odd accedents which happened by some persons in the history of egypt ?
sorry , but by saying that islam supporting the oppression i thought that you refer to the beliefs of muslims in quran or sunnah

If only! Indeed, it is in there too. These horrible verses about striking the unbelievers and all that. I’d search for them and find them quite easily, but you already know that they’re there anyway.

i know that allah will punish me if i persecuted any human_being

Good.

yes , may be you know this verse and may be you read it , but did you ever take under your consideration the understanding of muslims and scientists of islam for such verses ?

I would love to. Please tell me, then, how to justify these verses that say that you should subjugate the people of the book, that you claim to respect? I know already the explanation that the jizya was historically a substitute for Muslim taxes that were higher, but then why does the Qur’an talk about “humilation” and bringing us low? There is no justification for that. Islam wants to subjugate us, and we don’t want it, and you ask us why? How can you ask us why? Doesn’t every human being want to live his life according to his religion that he says gives him freedom? We Christians are no different. But we cannot be really free under Islam. We already have our own way. Islam is not necessary for us, we have al-Masih, and Muslims interpretations of some verses that try to tell us that we should be lower than you because we don’t believe in Muhammad and the Islamic Allah won’t really help. No context will bring back murdered Copts, Assyrians, Armenians, destroyed and stolen churches (Hagia Sofia), kidnapped and raped daughters, etc. I am not telling you that all Muslims say that these things are okay, but I will say that the ones that do think these are justifiable things have plenty of writings from Islamic books that tell them that they are okay! But they’re not!

 

[distracted]

A heck of a lot of Christians, overall, had to have voted for him and that tells me a lot too. It is a disgusting number to think about.

that’s true… I actually got SCARED when BHO won… didn’t expect it…

i thoght Americans were a LITTLE above this…?

but, … sadly, they are not…

 

[distracted]

Obviously the Vatican is trying to make nice with Muslims, although not as much as the secularists. The pope was vilified by both the secularists and the Muslims for his Regensberg address, where he dared touch on the irrationality of the Muslim faith. .

tell us more…

 

[distracted]

i just googled it…

its’ just like the Muslims (jihadists) to get irate over this kind of stupid thing… The pope was just quoting the words of some Byzantine who lived back in something like 1200???

 

[distracted]

i think the pope would be too scared to say anything against Muslims…

afraid they’d shoot him…

he’s an infidel you know…

all we Roman Catholics… and all Christians and all non-Mulsims are…

and infidels either convert to Islam or

DIE

 

[Hadi]

i think the pope would be too scared to say anything against Muslims…

afraid they’d shoot him…

he’s an infidel you know…

all we Roman Catholics… and all Christians and all non-Mulsims are…

and infidels either convert to Islam or

DIE

how disrespectful of you to label the pope as a coward…and you have very ignorant view about the 1.5 billion Muslims and think they are all one homogeneous group

 

[planten]

i just googled it…

its’ just like the Muslims (jihadists) to get irate over this kind of stupid thing… The pope was just quoting the words of some Byzantine who lived back in something like 1200???

**That was bad of that Pope to open his mouth like that. Why did he have to refer to the worst thing in the world about islam?. there were many other good things to quote and refer and refer about Islam. Pope is an important person. He should be careful about everything and should not run down to an illicit remark of the very old times. It hurts a majority contender of the christianity, i.e. islam. **