What role should the Church have in aiding aliens

[Xavierlives]

I worked at a legal aid society that regularly pointed people with immigration issues to a nearby church (that obviously had legal counsel available).

I am wondering what role the church should have in the immigration status of alien residents?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Legal or not legal?

The Church does a lot of help I know with legal aliens. . .assistance in helping them found housing and jobs, other outreach stuff.

Now, if somebody is in the country illegally, I would think that the only possible help would be in trying to set the situation right. You know, helping them go to the immigration bureau, perhaps arranging for translator help, for counsel, for petitions for emergency relief. Certainly if say one of the people is an illegal alien but he has family who are with him and are legal residents, then the Church would probably want to help the family while the family member is going through whatever needs to be done to ‘regulate’ his status. If the family member has to return to his own country and go through the ‘regular channels’ while his family is still in the U.S., I imagine that the Church would probably want to help the family and support them in whatever way they need until they are rejoined by the family member.

You know; feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned; the corporal works of mercy along with the spiritual ones too.

Not cooperating with illegal actions but not punishing the innocent victims and doing the best one can to make things ‘right.’

What do you think?

 

[diggerdomer]

I worked at a legal aid society that regularly pointed people with immigration issues to a nearby church (that obviously had legal counsel available).

I am wondering what role the church should have in the immigration status of alien residents?

The same role it should have in the status of anyone created in the image of God.

 

[d97c]

Our Bishop here is an open-borders advocate. He feels like if someone expresses a “need,” then the needs of the country or the common good becomes un-important…certainly secondary. This Bishop here really believes that there should be no borders and that the “goods of the world” should be open to anyone. From the “pastoral letter” he wrote, this is based on this mindless mantra —the “right to migrate,” which, to Bishops like ours, means if you think you need to move to get a better job, you have the right to go there, even if 13 million (and more) other “migrants” want to go there too and regardless of whether or not that person sneaks illegally into the place migrated “to” and regardless of whether there are laws against it.
The answer to the thread question is: Once they are here, the Church should feed illegals, not tax payers, until we find a way to get them out of the country whose laws they violated. Since most people who leave Mexico have jobs in Mexico (according to Pew) BEFORE they leave, the church should push publically for a liveable wage THERE in Mexico, push for the law makers to get the borders secure, by any means necessary, and to tell the Bishops of Mexico (or wherever) to fix their lousy country so their Catholics wont have to “escape” to another place. While here, the Church should be in daily contact with the Bishops in Mexico to help them get food and employment when they return back to wherever they came from. The Church should cooperate with the laws of this country and help facilitate a legal, ENFORCED, temporary worker program for seasonal employment where these workers are needed. The Church should push for sanctions against employers who knowingly hire illegals. And legal immigration needs to be easier to achieve for those who want to become Americans, study the language and history of this country, and then enter. It should aid legal immigration and try to prevent illegal immigration.

 

[Xavierlives]

Our Bishop here is an open-borders advocate. He feels like if someone expresses a “need,” then the needs of the country or the common good becomes un-important…certainly secondary. This Bishop here really believes that there should be no borders and that the “goods of the world” should be open to anyone. From the “pastoral letter” he wrote, this is based on this mindless mantra —the “right to migrate,” which, to Bishops like ours, means if you think you need to move to get a better job, you have the right to go there, even if 13 million (and more) other “migrants” want to go there too and regardless of whether or not that person sneaks illegally into the place migrated “to” and regardless of whether there are laws against it.
The answer to the thread question is: Once they are here, the Church should feed illegals, not tax payers, until we find a way to get them out of the country whose laws they violated. Since most people who leave Mexico have jobs in Mexico (according to Pew) BEFORE they leave, the church should push publically for a liveable wage THERE in Mexico, push for the law makers to get the borders secure, by any means necessary, and to tell the Bishops of Mexico (or wherever) to fix their lousy country so their Catholics wont have to “escape” to another place. While here, the Church should be in daily contact with the Bishops in Mexico to help them get food and employment when they return back to wherever they came from.** The Church should cooperate with the laws of this country and help facilitate a legal, ENFORCED, temporary worker program for seasonal employment where these workers are needed. The Church should push for sanctions against employers who knowingly hire illegals. And legal immigration needs to be easier to achieve for those who want to become Americans, study the language and history of this country, and then enter. It should aid legal immigration and try to prevent illegal immigration.**

I think you are hitting all of the major issues. Exodus 22:21 says we shouldn’t mistreat aliens, which really hits on your “The Church should push for sanctions against employers who knowingly hire illegals.” I worked a stint at the New York Attorney General’s Office in the Labor Bureau and 90% of the work was investigating business which hired illegal aliens at wages of $1 an hour (this was 2 years ago). Some of these people were working 90 hours a week. That is mistreatment.

The church is in a very tough position because we are to feed and clothe the poor a majority illegal aliens are, but we are also to abide by the laws and governance. I don’t think feeding or housing aliens would be consider “breaking the law” unless they are harboring a criminal (which is where some of the problems occur). Only the government would have access to criminal warrants (especially international), so the Church could be unwittingly feeding and clothing someone wanted in connected with criminal activity.

Personally, I don’t think there is anything wrong with assisting an alien seek a legal status. Most fear that by applying, they will be kicked out, so they remain silient, when some could make a legitimate claim of persecution.

 

[kooldood]

As I get it, the church and all people have a obligation to help anybody in need of help, regardless of their legal status.

 

[Xavierlives]

Legal or not legal?

The Church does a lot of help I know with legal aliens. . .assistance in helping them found housing and jobs, other outreach stuff.

Now, if somebody is in the country illegally, I would think that the only possible help would be in trying to set the situation right. You know, helping them go to the immigration bureau, perhaps arranging for translator help, for counsel, for petitions for emergency relief. Certainly if say one of the people is an illegal alien but he has family who are with him and are legal residents, then the Church would probably want to help the family while the family member is going through whatever needs to be done to ‘regulate’ his status. If the family member has to return to his own country and go through the ‘regular channels’ while his family is still in the U.S., I imagine that the Church would probably want to help the family and support them in whatever way they need until they are rejoined by the family member.

You know; feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned; the corporal works of mercy along with the spiritual ones too.

Not cooperating with illegal actions but not punishing the innocent victims and doing the best one can to make things ‘right.’

What do you think?

Our Bishop here is an open-borders advocate. He feels like if someone expresses a “need,” then the needs of the country or the common good becomes un-important…certainly secondary. This Bishop here really believes that there should be no borders and that the “goods of the world” should be open to anyone. From the “pastoral letter” he wrote, this is based on this mindless mantra —the “right to migrate,” which, to Bishops like ours, means if you think you need to move to get a better job, you have the right to go there, even if 13 million (and more) other “migrants” want to go there too and regardless of whether or not that person sneaks illegally into the place migrated “to” and regardless of whether there are laws against it.
The answer to the thread question is: Once they are here, the Church should feed illegals, not tax payers, until we find a way to get them out of the country whose laws they violated. Since most people who leave Mexico have jobs in Mexico (according to Pew) BEFORE they leave, the church should push publically for a liveable wage THERE in Mexico, push for the law makers to get the borders secure, by any means necessary, and to tell the Bishops of Mexico (or wherever) to fix their lousy country so their Catholics wont have to “escape” to another place. While here, the Church should be in daily contact with the Bishops in Mexico to help them get food and employment when they return back to wherever they came from. The Church should cooperate with the laws of this country and help facilitate a legal, ENFORCED, temporary worker program for seasonal employment where these workers are needed. The Church should push for sanctions against employers who knowingly hire illegals. And legal immigration needs to be easier to achieve for those who want to become Americans, study the language and history of this country, and then enter. It should aid legal immigration and try to prevent illegal immigration.

As I get it, the church and all people have a obligation to help anybody in need of help, regardless of their legal status.

And I think the church does. They just can’t break the law while doing it. So that means the church can hire illegal aliens.

 

[d97c]

OK, so if I say I am needy and have to have something, it’s ok for me to break into the diocese office and steal it? Thats what illegals do. They break in here, steal Socail security numbers, take jobs they have no right to have (what about the people who followed the laws and would otherwise have those jobs??), But if I am the arbiter of the morality of whether I am justified, (like the illegals do–THEY make the decision whether it is ok), I make the decision on the morality and the church will back me up??..excuse my break in?? What a precedent you are setting. The church rewards law breakers by hiring them ??? Whats the difference in that and me breaking into the diocese office and taking what I think I need?

 

[diggerdomer]

OK, so if I say I am needy and have to have something, it’s ok for me to break into the diocese office and steal it? Thats what illegals do. They break in here, steal Socail security numbers, take jobs they have no right to have (what about the people who followed the laws and would otherwise have those jobs??), But if I am the arbiter of the morality of whether I am justified, (like the illegals do–THEY make the decision whether it is ok), I make the decision on the morality and the church will back me up??..excuse my break in?? What a precedent you are setting. The church rewards law breakers by hiring them ??? Whats the difference in that and me breaking into the diocese office and taking what I think I need?

No, of course stealing is wrong, which has nothing to do with one’s immigration/citizenship status. What’s your point, really?

 

[Secret_Square]

Illegal immigration is not always a matter of people “sneaking” over the border to “take jobs they have no right to have” and “steal” other people’s identities, etc. Yes, this does go on frequently but ALL illegal immigrants are not in this kind of situation.

Some become “illegal” because their visas or work permits expire and they cannot get back to their home country. Others were brought to the U.S. as infants or toddlers and grow up believing they are U.S. citizens or legal residents, only to discover as adults that they are not. Still others have attempted to legalize their status but been turned down due to flaws in their paperwork or other mistakes. Immigration law is VERY complicated and people who try to do everything legally have to jump through an incredible amount of red tape in order to do so. (Our ancestors may have come legally, it’s true, but in the 19th and early 20th century that was much easier to do in a bureaucratic sense; all you had to do was show up at Ellis Island or wherever, show some basic identifying documents, and prove you were free of disease.)

Something else to consider is that the FEDERAL government benefits financially from the presence of illegal alien workers, while state and local governments shoulder most of the costs of their presence. Most illegal immigrants DO pay taxes – they don’t get paid in cash under the table, they get regular paychecks with taxes withheld, and many file income tax returns. The federal government collects more in taxes from them – particularly Social Security taxes – than it pays out, and in fact, their contributions actually help prop up Social Security to a slight extent. Which may explain why the federal government doesn’t seem to be in a big hurry to either expel all illegal immigrants or make it easier for them to become legal.

I personally believe the legal immigration process needs to be simplified and provisions made for temporary or “guest” workers such as other countries have. It would be better to have a more liberal immigration law that is consistently and fairly enforced, than a strict law which is only selectively enforced and largely ignored. It is the latter situation (setting up a strict law that is impossible to enforce or that everyone knows will be flouted) that erodes respect for the law.

 

[MumboJumbo]

But the politicians in the Church refuses to admit that Mexico and other Latin American countries, have overpopulated those countries to the point of mass unemployment and see the United States as a convienient scapegoat.

The politicians in the Church also ignores immigration and poverty by other countries from around the world. They seem to have fixed their gaze on fixing Latin America at the expense of the rest of the world.

The politicians in the Church also ignores the poor American. Why invite more poverty and cultural division into the US while Americans are suffering? I think these spokesmen for the Catholic Church are hypocrites. They reward those who sacrificed nothing while taking that reward from poor Americans who are constantly on the bottom of American society.

 

[Xavierlives]

And to go along with Secret Square

Congress needs to increase funding for the Immigration Courts. Right now, there are places in the United States where someone could be picked up for an immigration violation and their court date would be set three years later. Thats three years in the United States to do as they please.

 

[puzzleannie]

I worked at a legal aid society that regularly pointed people with immigration issues to a nearby church (that obviously had legal counsel available).

I am wondering what role the church should have in the immigration status of alien residents?

the role of the Church toward immigrants, with or without documents, through the agencies and individuals established and trained by the bishops to provide these services, should be the same as her mission to all people: to evangelize, to bring people to Christ through liturgy and sacraments and catechesis, and through the special charisms of the laity, provide for material and spiritual needs to those who are in trouble, travelling, migrating, separated from loved ones, and most especially to support families in need. In areas where immigrants are arriving, she should do in this country, what she has been doing continuously, provide for their spiritual needs, and through her charitable outreach provide for material needs, including legal assistance and other professional guidance when necessary to those with no other way to obtain assistance. Since the bible in many places calls on believers to be especially charitable and Christlike toward the widow, the orphan, the slave and the migrant the Church and her institutions should heed that call in their endeavors.

 

[d97c]

The “point” is quite clear. If the Bishops actually believe it is permissable , and excusable, for illegals to sneak over the border, or overstay their visa, in order to be here and take jobs the unemployed 10% of the American people need, or use their local hospitals for free care, or local schools to crowd the classrooms, then what other law would it be ok, according to the Bishops, for me to violate if I think it is ok to voilate it? The argument that the economy benefits overall because they are here is an argument I can have with facts too. They dont benefit the overall economy.
fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=16723&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1007
But…if your argument is that the Church decides morality based on whether there is economic benefits to the victim,that would be really bad for the Church to adopt. Is abortion ok because the woman would benefit economically? The Catechism says:
2241 “The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him… Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption.”

The Catechism also stresses that immigrants and foreigners should be grateful to the their new home, and try to learn its ways and customs:

“Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.”
My point, among others, is that we , especially now in the economy, ARE NOT ABLE, to take or keep these illegal aliens. So…when do we get the “duties” part of their gracious entry??? How bout we get that BEFORE they violate the laws.

Illegals file federal and state income tax forms ?? Oh really?? And whose Social Security numbers do they use? Theirs?? Of course not. You have no idea the problems illegals cause for people who suddenly find the IRS calling them because some illegal, because of the use of anothers STOLEN SS#, has messed up their life, and now they have to explain where they got that additional income they didnt claim on their real tax form, not aware that someone has falsified their identity.
A person who has come here on a visa and then disappeared under the radar, or just said “find me” has decided to break the law by overstaying their visa. The percentage is about 40% overstaying. You talk to California, Arizona or Nevada officials about the problems in their states.
Read the above article about the problems illeglas cause economically

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Before things get out of hand, I would highly suggest the tone of the posts on this thread change immediately.
Thank you.

 

[Xavierlives]

Illegals file federal and state income tax forms ?? Oh really?? And whose Social Security numbers do they use? Theirs?? Of course not. You have no idea the problems illegals cause for people who suddenly find the IRS calling them because some illegal, because of the use of anothers STOLEN SS#, has messed up their life, and now they have to explain where they got that additional income they didnt claim on their real tax form, not aware that someone has falsified their identity.
A person who has come here on a visa and then disappeared under the radar, or just said “find me” has decided to break the law by overstaying their visa. The percentage is about 40% overstaying. You talk to California, Arizona or Nevada officials about the problems in their states.
Read the above article about the problems illeglas cause economically

You know anyone can get a social security number right? In fact, the current legal theory for immigration law is for aliens to pay their taxes. Then they can say they are contributing to society.

 

[d97c]

No sir. An illegal alien cannot get a Social Security number LEGALLY. Thats why they steal someone else’s. They cannot apply at a SS office or online and get it…legally !

 

[MumboJumbo]

You know anyone can get a social security number right? In fact, the current legal theory for immigration law is for aliens to pay their taxes. Then they can say they are contributing to society.

Why am I paying to educate, clothe, feed, and give medical attention to illegals and their children who don’t even belong in the US and when I ( a third generation American) try to get medical attention at a clinic, I am turned away because they have flooded that clinic with their own people and there aren’t enough resources to go around.

FEED AMERICANS FIRST!

 

[Secret_Square]

Illegals file federal and state income tax forms ?? Oh really??

Yes, they do. The IRS provides “Taxpayer Identification Numbers” for people who cannot obtain Social Security Numbers… since citizens and legal residents can obtain legitimate SSNs the vast majority of people who use TINs are illegal immigrants.

The fact that the IRS makes any provisions for people without SSNs to pay income taxes is, IMO, a tacit admission by the federal government that they WANT illegal immigration to continue, or at least don’t want to discourage it too much, because they need the tax monies they pay.

Why? One reason may be that the funds illegals pay into Social Security and other entitlement programs that they legally cannot benefit from helps replace the monies NOT being paid by all the children the Baby Boomers didn’t have… think about that for a moment.

Please understand, I’m NOT saying that this is a good thing or that it justifies illegal immigration, just pointing out one very big reason why the feds haven’t been trying too hard to stop it.

Personally I’d like to see someone (politician, commentator, bishop, etc.) step up to the plate and offer a good explanation of why uncontrolled illegal immigration is unfair and unjust to the immigrants themselves, and to Hispanics in general, as well as to Anglo U.S. citizens.

For one thing, it fosters prejudice against ALL Hispanics, including those who are U.S. citizens or legal residents. When so many millions of Hispanic immigrants are illegal, naturally, people will begin to presume that any Hispanic person they see is an illegal alien unless proven otherwise.

Also, for our government to tacitly encourage immigrants to break the law and place themselves and their families into a situation where they can be easily exploited is just not right. I don’t really blame illegal immigrants themselves for creating this situation, as they are simply doing what they need to do to survive. However our federal government takes advantage of that situation by making legal immigration prohibitively expensive and complicated, then basically winking at the law and letting it be known that immigrants can easily get around it.

Most of the stolen or fake SSNs used by illegal immigrants are supplied to them by people who promise to “take care of” whatever arrangements they need in order to find work. Periodically the feds bust “rings” of people who specialize in doing this for dozens or hundreds of illegals at a time. I don’t know whether all the individual immigrants who accept and use these numbers necessarily realize what is going on and are morally culpable for going along with it. But the people who run these rackets AND the businesses that use their “services” certainly do.

Something has to be done about the current state of immigration policy. It is unjust to everyone involved, U.S. citizens, legal immigrants, illegals and their families. But finding a solution that doesn’t hurt as many or more people as it helps will take a lot of work, and I’m not sure most politicians who are concerned about getting reelected are willing to undertake the work that is needed.

 

[Xavierlives]

Illegals file federal and state income tax forms ?? Oh really??

Yes, they do. The IRS provides “Taxpayer Identification Numbers” for people who cannot obtain Social Security Numbers… since citizens and legal residents can obtain legitimate SSNs the vast majority of people who use TINs are illegal immigrants.

The fact that the IRS makes any provisions for people without SSNs to pay income taxes is, IMO, a tacit admission by the federal government that they WANT illegal immigration to continue, or at least don’t want to discourage it too much, because they need the tax monies they pay.

Why? One reason may be that the funds illegals pay into Social Security and other entitlement programs that they legally cannot benefit from helps replace the monies NOT being paid by all the children the Baby Boomers didn’t have… think about that for a moment.

Please understand, I’m NOT saying that this is a good thing or that it justifies illegal immigration, just pointing out one very big reason why the feds haven’t been trying too hard to stop it.

Personally I’d like to see someone (politician, commentator, bishop, etc.) step up to the plate and offer a good explanation of why uncontrolled illegal immigration is unfair and unjust to the immigrants themselves, and to Hispanics in general, as well as to Anglo U.S. citizens.

For one thing, it fosters prejudice against ALL Hispanics, including those who are U.S. citizens or legal residents. When so many millions of Hispanic immigrants are illegal, naturally, people will begin to presume that any Hispanic person they see is an illegal alien unless proven otherwise.

Also, for our government to tacitly encourage immigrants to break the law and place themselves and their families into a situation where they can be easily exploited is just not right. I don’t really blame illegal immigrants themselves for creating this situation, as they are simply doing what they need to do to survive. However our federal government takes advantage of that situation by making legal immigration prohibitively expensive and complicated, then basically winking at the law and letting it be known that immigrants can easily get around it.

Most of the stolen or fake SSNs used by illegal immigrants are supplied to them by people who promise to “take care of” whatever arrangements they need in order to find work. Periodically the feds bust “rings” of people who specialize in doing this for dozens or hundreds of illegals at a time. I don’t know whether all the individual immigrants who accept and use these numbers necessarily realize what is going on and are morally culpable for going along with it. But the people who run these rackets AND the businesses that use their “services” certainly do.

Something has to be done about the current state of immigration policy. It is unjust to everyone involved, U.S. citizens, legal immigrants, illegals and their families. But finding a solution that doesn’t hurt as many or more people as it helps will take a lot of work, and I’m not sure most politicians who are concerned about getting reelected are willing to undertake the work that is needed.

TY. You saved me the time having to post this.

It is definitely free money for them. Pay the taxes, never receive the benefit. Especially since most are eventually deported.