What role should the Church have in aiding aliens

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You bet. If a person is here, even illegally, the church should do what it can to be sure human beings are not going hungry or abused. BUT, it should also, with all deliberate speed, do everything to assure that those Catholics, among others, who are waiting in line legally to become citizens of the United States, have their rights protected by advocating the enforcement of the laws of the United States. That means telling Mexican Bishops to stop helping them sneak in here, tell the USA to secure the border, hire more agents, beef up the e-verify system to mandate employers to help us prevent those who are applying for jobs and are illegally here from taking jobs from the 10% unemployed, and since there will be no job here for an illegal, they will go back. They know how they got here…they can find a way back. We can feed them as they are on the way passed the Rio Grande !! Let the Mexican Bishops fix…surprise-surprise… Mexico. They have tons of our former employers (businesses) in Mexico now. Why is it that THIS COUNTRY has to do everything the illegals want? Americans have rights too !
This is a great article about costs and illegal immigration -------
fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=16973&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1017
 
I would suggest a little perspective when spreading the so called “facts”. We need to realize where we get those facts, the source is an important consideration when processing the information. If a group pro shutting the borders down, and not allowing anyone in, says that Bishops in Mexico are smuggling people, I would take it with a grain of salt.

The fact is our country doesn’t have an immigration policy. The immigration measures have been directed into making the illegals’ stay in the US the most uncomfortable possible. This has created a cast of second class people, with no hope of ever regularizing their immigrant situation, or going to school, or having descent salaries, working long hours for little pay.

Of course, this makes all our goods and services cheep. Which one of us would work as a housekeeper in a hotel for $9.00 an hour, or as a restaurant dishwasher for $7.25, or a plant worker processing chicken for $9.50. Some one needs to fill these positions.

I would request, that before disputing this position, anyone should list the immigration policy that would let anyone one of these people enter legally into the USA.

This is why the Church needs to help these people.

May God Bless you
 
Since this illegal alien problem is really a problem with Latin America, why not take action against those countries that have allowed and encouraged these criminal acts against America.

Preventing the sending of funds, cuttting off aid, and stop doing business with those countries is the way to stop this problem. There are many other countries in the world that would be overjoyed to get the business that America gives to Latin America. That is the way you stop illegal immigration.
But you see, that is precisely the problem. Our own government, even during the Bush years (and Bush especially, if the truth be known and accepted) has encouraged and enticed them here with all manner of freebies in the selling out of American interests for globalism. This is more of a political issue than one of social justice and a very complex one at that which favors big business over taxpayer interests. If we could just return to the law of the land, remember the Constitution? this would be an easy fix. And the Catholic bishops in both countires could work toward an alleviation of the poverty some suffer from without the injustices we now see being perpetrated against US!

I do truly see a return to the 60’s ideology that many of our Churchmen embraced in Latin America. They were warned time and time again by JP II to get out of politics, but the Jesuit influence was so strong the warning was ignored. Many of the higher ranking hierarchy, encouraged by the writings of Teilhard, actually embraced Marxism. (I understand that Teilhard’s works are, or were, on display with those of Marx and Lenin in Moscow’s Hall of Atheism.)

And do some research into the activities of Fr. Fernando Cardenal in Nicaragua before he was discharged from his Jesuit duties, and even his successor, Superior General Kolvenbach to understand how the American Church has become so off-track with authentic social justice teaching in today’s statements made by our liberal Shepherds who seem to be following the very same path! In our search to understand true church teaching, however, it is important to note that some of our good bishops are starting to speak out against that which is obviously so contrary to the Deposit of Faith.
 
Since the Fourth Commandment obligates to obey all lawful and reasonable authority, and the Seventh Commandment forbids us from taking anything that rightfully belongs to someone else (money, property, jobs, privileges, etc.), then objectively speaking, I would say that it is a sin to immigrate to another country illegally, because one who does so is disobeying the lawful authority of the country which they are entering, and claiming benefits of citizenship and legal residency (e.g. jobs, school enrollment, etc.) that are not rightfully theirs.
So are making up sins to combat migration? Stealing is finding something of yours and making it mine. Aliens can’t “steal” jobs. Your better argument is that they disobeying the lawful authority but they are not commiting a criminal offense. Furthermore, how are they claiming benefits? Are you claiming entitlements for being born here? I doubt it. What you are attempting to say is, they don’t pay taxes and receive the benefits. I’ve got a bunch of bad news for you here. 1. Most illegal aliens would likely not want to enroll their children in school because the fear this government entity will talk with ICE and have them deported. But they reluctantly agree to it because if they don’t, it is a child welfare issue, which could lead to an arrest and deportation. 2. These aliens are paying taxes. 100% of them pay sales tax. It isn’t like they sneak over the border to buy groceries. 3. A large majority of aliens do not commit crimes because they know if they are picked up, they will serve time in jail, and then be deported.
However, whether or not a particular illegal immigrant is subjectively guilty of committing a serious sin depends on the circumstances. If they were motivated by extreme poverty or family need, or became “illegal” due to a mistake or oversight in their visa or residency application process, or due to circumstances beyond their control (e.g. illness), whatever guilt they may have incurred could be mitigated or eliminated.
There is no “guilt” or “innocent” in immigration.
Moreover, when an illegal immigrant has been permitted to establish himself or herself in the U.S. over many years, perhaps marrying and having children or taking on the care of elderly relatives, they may find themselves in a situation where attempting to resolve the situation by sending them back to their homeland will cause extreme hardship to innocent parties.

Also, for reasons I explained earlier, the federal government has allowed itself and significant sectors of the U.S. economy (e.g. agriculture) to become so dependent upon the cheap labor illegal immigrants provide, that to attempt to halt all illegal immigration overnight and deport every single illegal alien would cause enormous repercussions (such as significant inflation of food prices).
Another reason the government likes immigration is it actually deflates our hard currency. Almost every single immigrant is sending money “home.” This takes cash out of our system and “exports” it into another economy, which actually helps our economy.
Again I believe this is mainly a matter of our federal government failing in its duty to protect the rights of citizens by ALLOWING illegal immigration to spiral out of control. The problem did not develop overnight, and cannot be properly solved overnight either. So what should we do?
This is not a “solvable” problem. It is a mitigation problem. You are right, this did not develop overnight because our country was built on immigration. The real problem occurred when we started trying to control it. (But I can talk about this more later, if you would like).
I personally would recommend:

– stricter border controls
– harsher penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens
– encouraging employers to use the e-verify system, with the caveat that it may not always be foolproof or accurate; employers who base a decision to hire or not hire someone in good faith on the results of e-verify should have some protection from liability
– committing more resources to immigration enforcement AND to immigration courts or other offices than can facilitate LEGAL immigration
– permanent, immediate deportation of ANY illegal alien found guilty of breaking any other criminal law, and more leeway for state and local authorities to request this (since local police departments have to deal with the problems criminal aliens cause).
– simplified provisions for seasonal or temporary workers to work LEGALLY in those occupations where it is truly difficult to find U.S. citizens willing to do the work (e.g. migrant farm workers)
a provision for long-term illegal immigrant residents who have not broken ANY other laws to become legal residents and eventually citizens PROVIDED they pay some kind of significant penalty for having broken the law to get here in the first place (e.g. payment of a fine or having to return to their homeland for a period of time to restart the application process for legal residency.) The penalty should be strong enough to discourage future illegal immigration – it would NOT be blanket amnesty – and needs to in some way make restitution for the benefits and privileges “stolen” from lawful citizens; but it need not be on the same level as what a habitual or violent criminal would recieve.
  1. Again, immigration laws are not criminal offenses. 2. So you want to take their money and then offer them amnesty. (honestly I don’t know what you are saying on this last part.
 
Unless someone is looking after them and they are not taking anything away from any American, you would be right. But because they compete for jobs with all Americans, they are taking away resources from Americans. How does the Catholic Church justify that? It’s OK to take from Americans if my need is greater? What kind of organization stabs its greatest supporters in the back?
You know what jobs they are filling right? Jobs that Americans don’t want to do or don’t have the skills to do. The first set of jobs are those that are backbreaking. I haven’t seen many Americans applying to pick tomatoes or willing to sit on a hot roof while reshingling it. 90% of the migratory workforce is made up from illegal aliens. The other “job taking aliens” are here legally, with work permits, filling highly technical positions that companies cannot fill with American labor.
 
You know what jobs they are filling right? Jobs that Americans don’t want to do or don’t have the skills to do. The first set of jobs are those that are backbreaking. I haven’t seen many Americans applying to pick tomatoes or willing to sit on a hot roof while reshingling it. 90% of the migratory workforce is made up from illegal aliens. The other “job taking aliens” are here legally, with work permits, filling highly technical positions that companies cannot fill with American labor.
Why apply for a job that you know 100% you will not get?
 
“payment of a fine or returning to their homeland”…Both would never be done.
1…they could never afford it…(thats what they would say)…and you know who would end up PAYING it??/…yep—good ole Catholic Church, getting the money from collections WE paid. Someone else would pay the fine you mentioned
2. they would never go back and start over. Why think people who are hiding (although you could find them if there were enough enforcement agents!!) and getting money here would go back?? Thats not reasonable. It would never happen. I say NEVER to the idea that those 12 million would EVER be citizens. NO AMNESTY
  1. Are you actually equating what you give to the church as a payment of sorts?
    There is no charity in that.
  2. I am pretty sure that 11,900,000 of those probably wouldn’t care either way if they are citizens. They just want to be legal residents.
 
Since this illegal alien problem is really a problem with Latin America, why not take action against those countries that have allowed and encouraged these criminal acts against America.

Preventing the sending of funds, cuttting off aid, and stop doing business with those countries is the way to stop this problem. There are many other countries in the world that would be overjoyed to get the business that America gives to Latin America. That is the way you stop illegal immigration.
Does that really make sense to you? Stop spending money there so their economy tanks and all of their citizens stay at home and wollow in their country’s demise? No. Spend less money there and more of them will head where the money is.
Second, unless you totally ignore what is going on in Latin America, they are hardly the friend of Americans. Their leaders are constantly condemning the United States and its people. Many of those countries are now conspiring with Middle Eastern terrorist groups to take on the US. Are these the type of people you wish to welcome into the US?
I don’t normally attack logical fallacies when to talking to people on forums, but this paragraph has four fallacies in four sentences. (Appeal to Ridicule, Hasty Generalizations, Appeal to Fear, and Begging the Question).
The far reaching effect of the “do nothing” policies of religious groups is definately not what a just God would want. It is impossible to deal with people who think they have a right to America just because they live “next door”. And just because someone has successfully avoided being caught for years does not make their actions justified in the eyes of God.

The problem with the Catholic Church is that they have been silent for too long. The illegal alien thinks that American laws do not apply to him because of that silence. They have been encouraged by the belief that an illegal immigrant can do no wrong simple because he is poor. They can take anything from Americans because no one is stopping them.

There is a saying:“If you allow someone to take your property, maybe it wasn’t yours to begin with.”
What would you have the church do?
 
You know what jobs they are filling right? Jobs that Americans don’t want to do or don’t have the skills to do. The first set of jobs are those that are backbreaking. I haven’t seen many Americans applying to pick tomatoes or willing to sit on a hot roof while reshingling it. 90% of the migratory workforce is made up from illegal aliens. The other “job taking aliens” are here legally, with work permits, filling highly technical positions that companies cannot fill with American labor.
I believe much of what you wrote has been de-bunked by various stats and agencies. The black community who used to work in the processing plants and in the hotel/motel industry have suffered greatly due to job loss to illegals, or have had their wages significantly reduced. The Center for Immigration Studies is a good place to start to get the real picture. I believe it was last summer that it was predicted that 300,000 construction jobs created by the stimulus would go to an illegal workforce. These are jobs that target many average American blue collar workers:

usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2009-03-08-immigrant-jobs_N.htm

And here’s more:

HR Scam Helped Illegal Aliens Take Jobs from American Workers

numbersusa.com/content/news/december-11-2009/hr-scam-helped-illegal-aliens-take-jobs-american-workers.html

And of course, the job loss to American workers is only a small part of the injustices not being addressed by our church leaders in their quest to help the aliens while ignoring solidarity, or the common good.

BTW, someone in an earlier post mentioned amnesty. Another bill has been re-introduced by the Democrat, Luis Gutierrez (IL), which would grant a mass amnesty to all illegals here and increase future immigration numbers. Congress is doing this at the same time we will most likely be buried by the healthcare costs of the bill they will pass, and possibly new taxes that could be imposed because of the Copenhagen climate conference. Our political bishops are for all of the above scenarios, but in all reality, could this bankrupt our country?
 
You bet. If a person is here, even illegally, the church should do what it can to be sure human beings are not going hungry or abused. BUT, it should also, with all deliberate speed, do everything to assure that those Catholics, among others, who are waiting in line legally to become citizens of the United States, have their rights protected by advocating the enforcement of the laws of the United States. That means telling Mexican Bishops to stop helping them sneak in here, tell the USA to secure the border, hire more agents, beef up the e-verify system to mandate employers to help us prevent those who are applying for jobs and are illegally here from taking jobs from the 10% unemployed, and since there will be no job here for an illegal, they will go back. They know how they got here…they can find a way back. We can feed them as they are on the way passed the Rio Grande !! Let the Mexican Bishops fix…surprise-surprise… Mexico. They have tons of our former employers (businesses) in Mexico now. Why is it that THIS COUNTRY has to do everything the illegals want? Americans have rights too !
This is a great article about costs and illegal immigration -------
fairus.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=16973&security=1601&news_iv_ctrl=1017
Here’s an example of the “clergy” helping people sneak into the US.

pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/may-9-2008/eagle-pass-border-wall/69/
 
Why apply for a job that you know 100% you will not get?
And how many jobs are going only to Hispanics because Americans can’t speak Spanish?

How many Hispanic businesses are funded with American money but those same businesses will only hire Hispanics?
 
I believe much of what you wrote has been de-bunked by various stats and agencies. The black community who used to work in the processing plants and in the hotel/motel industry have suffered greatly due to job loss to illegals, or have had their wages significantly reduced. The Center for Immigration Studies is a good place to start to get the real picture. I believe it was last summer that it was predicted that 300,000 construction jobs created by the stimulus would go to an illegal workforce. These are jobs that target many average American blue collar workers:

usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2009-03-08-immigrant-jobs_N.htm

And here’s more:

HR Scam Helped Illegal Aliens Take Jobs from American Workers

numbersusa.com/content/news/december-11-2009/hr-scam-helped-illegal-aliens-take-jobs-american-workers.html

And of course, the job loss to American workers is only a small part of the injustices not being addressed by our church leaders in their quest to help the aliens while ignoring solidarity, or the common good.

BTW, someone in an earlier post mentioned amnesty. Another bill has been re-introduced by the Democrat, Luis Gutierrez (IL), which would grant a mass amnesty to all illegals here and increase future immigration numbers. Congress is doing this at the same time we will most likely be buried by the healthcare costs of the bill they will pass, and possibly new taxes that could be imposed because of the Copenhagen climate conference. Our political bishops are for all of the above scenarios, but in all reality, could this bankrupt our country?
Maybe I should take a step back for a second, because I am not talking in extremes. While some here are saying things like, “they are stealing jobs from Americans.” I am not denying that some of these jobs could be filled by American workers. I am saying that a majority of these jobs are undesirable to American workers at the wage offered. Heck, I’d pick tomatoes for $50 an hour, but the economy would not support that.
So, we either stop growing tomatoes, and import yet another thing, or we find a way to keep the farmers growing. Anyway, I am acknowledging that some job loss occurs, but not the 100% that the others on this thread are projecting.

I do have a personal example though. My uncle owns a plumbing business. He actually pays he employees an excessively competitive wage (nearly $20 an hour) but has more work and trucks than he has a labor force. He is constantly trying to hire… for a $40,000 a year job. He could probably hire illegals for half that rate and pocket the difference, but he does not. There are good jobs out there, but no one wants to do them. And again, I am not saying this is the end-all, be-all of examples, but it is more illustrative.

BTW, my favorite line from the article:
"Those are fear tactics. … ‘The immigrants are here to take your job,’ " Cabrera said. “I think that we really should be focusing on economic progress for all.”

If Job loss is 15% for the stimulus, it appears Congress doesn’t care. Whatever the numbers, I think we are venturing into a part off topic. I proposed this as a discussion of what the Church’s responsibility.
And of course, the job loss to American workers is only a small part of the injustices not being addressed by our church leaders in their quest to help the aliens while ignoring solidarity, or the common good.

BTW, someone in an earlier post mentioned amnesty. Another bill has been re-introduced by the Democrat, Luis Gutierrez (IL), which would grant a mass amnesty to all illegals here and increase future immigration numbers. Congress is doing this at the same time we will most likely be buried by the healthcare costs of the bill they will pass, and possibly new taxes that could be imposed because of the Copenhagen climate conference. Our political bishops are for all of the above scenarios, but in all reality, could this bankrupt our country?
Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s. 😃
 
And how many jobs are going only to Hispanics because Americans can’t speak Spanish?

How many Hispanic businesses are funded with American money but those same businesses will only hire Hispanics?
What is the price of tea in China?
 
BTW, someone in an earlier post mentioned amnesty. Another bill has been re-introduced by the Democrat, Luis Gutierrez (IL), which would grant a mass amnesty to all illegals here and increase future immigration numbers. Congress is doing this at the same time we will most likely be buried by the healthcare costs of the bill they will pass, and possibly new taxes that could be imposed because of the Copenhagen climate conference. Our political bishops are for all of the above scenarios, but in all reality, could this bankrupt our country?
There are over 400 bills in Congress today that include the word “immigration”. What a waste of American tax dollars. Not one penny to feed the American poor.
 
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FifthColumn:
There are over 400 bills in Congress today that include the word “immigration”. What a waste of American tax dollars. Not one penny to feed the American poor.

I am confused by what you mean. What is the waste? To have the legislation?
 
You mean, here is an an example of the clergy talking about immigration. Here is an example of the Church feeding, housing, and clothing the poor. I failed to see any spot where the clergy was “sneaking” anything.
Their aiding people who they know will soon be stealing from Americans. They are aiding people who they know are breaking US laws. This is why all aid should be cut off.
 
There are over 400 bills in Congress today that include the word “immigration”. What a waste of American tax dollars. Not one penny to feed the American poor.

I am confused by what you mean. What is the waste? To have the legislation?
The US has an immigration policy. No one has a problem with it but those who seek to destroy the American way of life.
 
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