What role should the Church have in aiding aliens

[MumboJumbo]

Illegals file federal and state income tax forms ?? Oh really??

Yes, they do. The IRS provides “Taxpayer Identification Numbers” for people who cannot obtain Social Security Numbers… since citizens and legal residents can obtain legitimate SSNs the vast majority of people who use TINs are illegal immigrants.

The fact that the IRS makes any provisions for people without SSNs to pay income taxes is, IMO, a tacit admission by the federal government that they WANT illegal immigration to continue, or at least don’t want to discourage it too much, because they need the tax monies they pay.

 

[MumboJumbo]

TY. You saved me the time having to post this.

It is definitely free money for them. Pay the taxes, never receive the benefit. Especially since most are eventually deported.

Even when caught and deported, those criminals sneak back into the US with the aid of their governments. Americans are being turned away from services because the illegal got there first and stole it.

 

[Xavierlives]

Even when caught and deported, those criminals sneak back into the US with the aid of their governments. Americans are being turned away from services because the illegal got there first and stole it.

So you would rather the octomom get aid first?

 

[Xavierlives]

Illegals file federal and state income tax forms ?? Oh really??

The reason the IRS has those special numbers is to provide legal foreigners with a means of paying taxes.

The reason the illegal comes here is the US has a lax enforcement policy of punishing illegals. “Catch and release” after that illegal has stolen tens of thousands of dollars from the US is ridiculous. Where did they get the money for a brand new SUV? How did they get the money to buy a house? Did you ever ask that question?

Look at the way Obama kissed up to the Lain American countries during his first few months in office. He is a disgrace to the United States veteran.

The entire world can see how the Hispanics run countries south of the border. Are you blind. Do you want that in America?

There’s nothing complicated about the immigration system as I have met many people who have successfully become Americans under it. Mexicans want the right to go back and forth across the border like they own the US.

A few years ago, a Chicago politician’s father was caught making ID photos for those fake IDs. He got a slap on the wrist for helping illegals steal millions of dollars in services that belong to poor Americans. They had to fire many doctors and nurses and close hospital because of these thieves.

Military action should be taken against the countries where these people come from. Those countries are helping these thieves.

This is the same rhetoric the moderator was warning about.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

This is the same rhetoric the moderator was warning about.

**And the rhetoric has him suspended.

To all on this thread. Let’s discuss the topic like adults.
Thank you.**

 

[d97c]

There are 2 sites which discuss the illegal immigration problem in detail:
One is a Catholic site
www.http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/03/immigration_cat.html

the other is
www.fairus.org
Nothing is any Gospel says that if all the world wants to come to the US, we have to let them in and take care of them. Here’s a suggestions to the Bishops of Mexico—fix the problems with your country !

 

[Xavierlives]

**And the rhetoric has him suspended.

To all on this thread. Let’s discuss the topic like adults.
Thank you.**

No. Thank You.

 

[Xavierlives]

There are 2 sites which discuss the illegal immigration problem in detail:
One is a Catholic site
www.http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/03/immigration_cat.html

the other is
www.fairus.org
Nothing is any Gospel says that if all the world wants to come to the US, we have to let them in and take care of them. Here’s a suggestions to the Bishops of Mexico—fix the problems with your country !

facepalm

 

[d97c]

Here’s the best discussion on Catholics and illegal immigration.

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2006/03/immigration_cat.html

 

[FifthColumn]

The law in Illinois is quite clear. If you aid a criminal, you have committed a felony. Is the Catholic Church now endorsing criminal behavior when it helps those groups it chooses?

State of Illinois:

(720 ILCS 5/31‑5) (from Ch. 38, par. 31‑5)
Sec. 31‑5. Concealing or aiding a fugitive.
Every person not standing in the relation of husband, wife, parent, child, brother or sister to the offender, who, with intent to prevent the apprehension of the offender, conceals his knowledge that an offense has been committed or harbors, aids or conceals the offender, commits a Class 4 felony.
(Source: P. A. 77‑2638.)

US Code:

**

1325. Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who
(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

**

Aiding an illegal alien is a crime against the people of the United States of America. Using the bible as a defense is no excuse. No one is above the law, not even the Catholic Church.

 

[Xavierlives]

The law in Illinois is quite clear. If you aid a criminal, you have committed a felony. Is the Catholic Church now endorsing criminal behavior when it helps those groups it chooses?

State of Illinois:

US Code:

---

Aiding an illegal alien is a crime against the people of the United States of America. Using the bible as a defense is no excuse. No one is above the law, not even the Catholic Church.

The only problem with your assertion is Illegal aliens are not fugitives of state law. Instead of looking to the laws of man to be cruel to mankind, why don’t you look to God’s law to show love?

 

[FifthColumn]

The only problem with your assertion is Illegal aliens are not fugitives of state law. Instead of looking to the laws of man to be cruel to mankind, why don’t you look to God’s law to show love?

Unless someone is looking after them and they are not taking anything away from any American, you would be right. But because they compete for jobs with all Americans, they are taking away resources from Americans. How does the Catholic Church justify that? It’s OK to take from Americans if my need is greater? What kind of organization stabs its greatest supporters in the back?

 

[Tigg]

And here we have yet another thread which is indicative of the confusion of good and faithful Catholics on this issue. Small wonder, given the statements that have issued forth from some of the left-leaning bishops who still support Lib Theology and preferential treatment of the poor (to the destruction of the middle class) all of which is in direct opposition to the principles of subsidiarity and solidarity which have been upheld in countless social encyclicals and Church Councils.

No wonder then, that the faithful are inundated with feelings of guilt over the illegal entry of millions of our southern neighbors. Perhaps this will help:

Whatever else the church’s leadership might be teaching new immigrants, respect for American law doesn’t seem to be a high priority. Father Richard John Neuhaus, the First Things editor who is generally pro-immigration, has pointed out that for all their talk about justice in the immigration discussion, the bishops are conspicuously silent about law and order. “Law and order does not guarantee justice,” he writes, “but there can be no justice without law and order.”

Harvard Law professor Mary Ann Glendon, in First Things, adds that it’s important for bishops to recognize “the need for a highly diverse, rule-of-law society to be careful about the messages it sends to persons who wish to become part of that society.” Ms. Glendon, a leading Catholic intellectual, quotes Pope John Paul II’s teaching that holds all members of society, not just the strong, to account: “Those who are weaker, for their part, in the same spirit of solidarity should not adopt a purely passive attitude, or one that is destructive of the social fabric, but, while claiming their legitimate rights, should do what they can for the good of all.”

Is the growing influx of illegal immigrants in our area “destructive of the social fabric” in ways that make it morally problematic for Catholics and other Christians? Do people concerned about the stability and integrity of their neighborhoods have no claim on justice? These are all legitimate and important questions, and they deserve a thoughtful response, not sentimental speechifying and back-of-the-hand moral preening from prelates.

billcork.wordpress.com/2008/03/01/the-catholic-church-and-illegal-immigration/

And this joint pastoral letter issued by Bishops Naumann and Finn has further clarified what the Church teaches:

“Subsidiarity is that principle by which we respect the inherent dignity and freedom of the individual by never doing for others what they can do for themselves and thus enabling individuals to have the most possible discretion in the affairs of their lives.”

diocese-kcsj.org/news/viewNews.php?nid=60

 

[d97c]

Tigg…awesome post !!
Thanks for the links !

 

[Secret_Square]

Since the Fourth Commandment obligates to obey all lawful and reasonable authority, and the Seventh Commandment forbids us from taking anything that rightfully belongs to someone else (money, property, jobs, privileges, etc.), then objectively speaking, I would say that it is a sin to immigrate to another country illegally, because one who does so is disobeying the lawful authority of the country which they are entering, and claiming benefits of citizenship and legal residency (e.g. jobs, school enrollment, etc.) that are not rightfully theirs.

However, whether or not a particular illegal immigrant is subjectively guilty of committing a serious sin depends on the circumstances. If they were motivated by extreme poverty or family need, or became “illegal” due to a mistake or oversight in their visa or residency application process, or due to circumstances beyond their control (e.g. illness), whatever guilt they may have incurred could be mitigated or eliminated.

Moreover, when an illegal immigrant has been permitted to establish himself or herself in the U.S. over many years, perhaps marrying and having children or taking on the care of elderly relatives, they may find themselves in a situation where attempting to resolve the situation by sending them back to their homeland will cause extreme hardship to innocent parties.

Also, for reasons I explained earlier, the federal government has allowed itself and significant sectors of the U.S. economy (e.g. agriculture) to become so dependent upon the cheap labor illegal immigrants provide, that to attempt to halt all illegal immigration overnight and deport every single illegal alien would cause enormous repercussions (such as significant inflation of food prices).

Again I believe this is mainly a matter of our federal government failing in its duty to protect the rights of citizens by ALLOWING illegal immigration to spiral out of control. The problem did not develop overnight, and cannot be properly solved overnight either. So what should we do?

I personally would recommend:

– stricter border controls
– harsher penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens
– encouraging employers to use the e-verify system, with the caveat that it may not always be foolproof or accurate; employers who base a decision to hire or not hire someone in good faith on the results of e-verify should have some protection from liability
– committing more resources to immigration enforcement AND to immigration courts or other offices than can facilitate LEGAL immigration
– permanent, immediate deportation of ANY illegal alien found guilty of breaking any other criminal law, and more leeway for state and local authorities to request this (since local police departments have to deal with the problems criminal aliens cause).
– simplified provisions for seasonal or temporary workers to work LEGALLY in those occupations where it is truly difficult to find U.S. citizens willing to do the work (e.g. migrant farm workers)
– a provision for long-term illegal immigrant residents who have not broken ANY other laws to become legal residents and eventually citizens PROVIDED they pay some kind of significant penalty for having broken the law to get here in the first place (e.g. payment of a fine or having to return to their homeland for a period of time to restart the application process for legal residency.) The penalty should be strong enough to discourage future illegal immigration – it would NOT be blanket amnesty – and needs to in some way make restitution for the benefits and privileges “stolen” from lawful citizens; but it need not be on the same level as what a habitual or violent criminal would recieve.

 

[d97c]

“payment of a fine or returning to their homeland”…Both would never be done.
1…they could never afford it…(thats what they would say)…and you know who would end up PAYING it??/…yep—good ole Catholic Church, getting the money from collections WE paid. Someone else would pay the fine you mentioned
2. they would never go back and start over. Why think people who are hiding (although you could find them if there were enough enforcement agents!!) and getting money here would go back?? Thats not reasonable. It would never happen. I say NEVER to the idea that those 12 million would EVER be citizens. NO AMNESTY

 

[diggerdomer]

Aiding an illegal alien is a crime against the people of the United States of America. Using the bible as a defense is no excuse. No one is above the law, not even the Catholic Church.

This thread is about alien residents, though, not criminals. Right?

But, since you made that claim, wouldn’t preventing someone from procuring a legal abortion be a “crime” according to U.S. law? I don’t want to get into abortion on this thread but am just pointing out what I think (if I understand you correctly, which I may not) is a logical fallacy in the claim that the Church is not “above” U.S. law.

 

[aspawloski4th]

If it’s illegal ailienns the church should aid in their return to their homeland then.

 

[wabrams]

If it’s illegal ailienns the church should aid in their return to their homeland then.

Holy moly, we are in 100% agreement!

 

[FifthColumn]

Since this illegal alien problem is really a problem with Latin America, why not take action against those countries that have allowed and encouraged these criminal acts against America.

Preventing the sending of funds, cuttting off aid, and stop doing business with those countries is the way to stop this problem. There are many other countries in the world that would be overjoyed to get the business that America gives to Latin America. That is the way you stop illegal immigration.

Second, unless you totally ignore what is going on in Latin America, they are hardly the friend of Americans. Their leaders are constantly condemning the United States and its people. Many of those countries are now conspiring with Middle Eastern terrorist groups to take on the US. Are these the type of people you wish to welcome into the US?

The far reaching effect of the “do nothing” policies of religious groups is definately not what a just God would want. It is impossible to deal with people who think they have a right to America just because they live “next door”. And just because someone has successfully avoided being caught for years does not make their actions justified in the eyes of God.

The problem with the Catholic Church is that they have been silent for too long. The illegal alien thinks that American laws do not apply to him because of that silence. They have been encouraged by the belief that an illegal immigrant can do no wrong simple because he is poor. They can take anything from Americans because no one is stopping them.

There is a saying:“If you allow someone to take your property, maybe it wasn’t yours to begin with.”