What role should the Church have in aiding aliens

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FifthColumn said:
Their aiding people who they know will soon be stealing from Americans. They are aiding people who they know are breaking US laws. This is why all aid should be cut off.
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Oh, so charity should stop at the border to discourage movement? And, again, “stealing” implies criminal act. “Stealing” implies property. None of this is true.

Filling jobs… ok. Stealing jobs… no.

I’ve walked into a bank with a loaded gun. Does that make me a robber?
 
wabrams said:
Holy moly, we are in 100% agreement!
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Just for background. MR WEBrams I used to be totally conservative. in my old age Ive learned idealogues get nothing done, and pragmatics get more results. So yes you are going to get conservative opinions out of me. Illegal aliens broke our law, which means they have no respect for our law or the principle of the rule of law therefore bring back home. If they want to come here so bad, go through legal channals. All my ancestors came here 110% legally, I expect nothing less with todays people.
 
Xavierlives said:
You know what jobs they are filling right? Jobs that Americans don’t want to do or don’t have the skills to do. The first set of jobs are those that are backbreaking. I haven’t seen many Americans applying to pick tomatoes or willing to sit on a hot roof while reshingling it. 90% of the migratory workforce is made up from illegal aliens. The other “job taking aliens” are here legally, with work permits, filling highly technical positions that companies cannot fill with American labor.
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Or maybe the jobs that the employer doesn’t want to pay the true value for so they hire an illegal for the lower wage so he can pocket the difference.
 
aspawloski4th said:
Or maybe the jobs that the employer doesn’t want to pay the true value for so they hire an illegal for the lower wage so he can pocket the difference.
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Hey, don’t think I am defending these employers who exploit these workers. I’ve investigated some businesses who were forcing 80+ hours a week for less than a dollar an hour.

Businesses are the enablers here. They want to make the almighty dollar and are willing to threaten their illegal workers with “turning them in unless the work.”

I think the whole system is out of whack, but I do not see the Church as the problem. The Church is feeding people who have a weekly paycheck of $100 after working 80 hours.
 
It is a criminal offense to enter this country without proper credentials. Here is the Federal criminal statute…

Illegal Immigration is a Crime

Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, “Improper Entry by Alien,” any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or

Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or

Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense."

Thats the law.
 
d97c said:
It is a criminal offense to enter this country without proper credentials. Here is the Federal criminal statute…

Illegal Immigration is a Crime

Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, “Improper Entry by Alien,” any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or

Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or

Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense."

Thats the law.
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Try again. US 1325 (a)(3) is a criminal act. That would be, showing up at a border check point or an airport and presenting falsified documents.

Illegal aliens are not showing up at check points, they are crossing the border. You conveniently left out section B and the Civil Penalties.

Here is what it should say
1325. Improper entry by alien
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who
(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.
(c) Marriage fraud
Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.
(d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud
Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18, or both.
 
All my ancestors came here 110% legally, I expect nothing less with todays people

With all due respect… how do you know? Record keeping in the 19th and early 20th centuries was not as complete or precise as today. Have you personally seen and verified every single one of your immigrant ancestors’ birth certificates, naturalization papers, etc.? How do you know some of them may not have been, as we would say today, “undocumented” – which back then, was NOT synonymous with “illegal”?

To compare the legal immigration of today with the legal immigration of the 19th century is in many respects comparing apples to oranges. It was much easier in the bureaucratic sense (NOT in the economic or social sense, of course) to immigrate then than it is today. The Irish who came after the potato famine or the Germans who came after the 1848 revolutions didn’t have to apply for visas, get work permits, line up sponsors, go through criminal background checks, etc. because those things didn’t exist. They just got on the boat and showed up.

After Ellis Island was built, a few more requirements like rudimentary medical examinations were added, but still, just about anyone who was able to work, didn’t have a contagious disease or was not from a country with strict immigration quotas could immigrate legally. Immigrants were expected to bring certain documents such as birth certificates, but not all did. (There is an urban legend of sorts that claims many Italian immigrants arrived at Ellis Island “without papers”, abbreviated “W.O.P.”)

My point again is not to defend or condone deliberate illegal immigration, or impugn the integrity of our ancestors who had every intention of becoming American citizens and following our laws, but to point out that we cannot necessarily judge what people do today by what our ancestors did 100 or 150 years ago under vastly different circumstances.

For some reason illegal immigration seems to be one of those issues where the extreme views get all the attention. Some people seem to think that illegal immigrants are the root of all evil in this country and that they all should be treated without exception as dangerous criminals regardless of their circumstances.

Others seem to think that they should be admitted to this country without any questions asked and to even suggest that they might be doing wrong by breaking the law, that there might be a limit to how many immigrants the U.S. can absorb, or that their presence might place unjust burdens on legal U.S. citizens, is cruel and un-Christian.

Personally I think the right approach lies somewhere in the middle. And again, I think our federal government must take much of the blame for allowing this problem to spiral out of control, to a point where it will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to solve without causing hardship to many innocent third parties.
 
Of course, this makes all our goods and services cheep. Which one of us would work as a housekeeper in a hotel for $9.00 an hour, or as a restaurant dishwasher for $7.25, or a plant worker processing chicken for $9.50. Some one needs to fill these positions.
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There are Americans who would work for that amount. That “cheap labor from Mexico” propaganda is nonsense. I see some illegals in Cadillacs. Where did they get the money?
 
Xavierlives said:
Try again. US 1325 (a)(3) is a criminal act. That would be, showing up at a border check point or an airport and presenting falsified documents.

Illegal aliens are not showing up at check points, they are crossing the border. You conveniently left out section B and the Civil Penalties.

Here is what it should say
1325. Improper entry by alien
(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who
(1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
(2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
(3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.
(c) Marriage fraud
Any individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.
(d) Immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud
Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18, or both.
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And cattle that wander into the US from Mexico are quarantined for up to 6 months. It seems as though the US has greater penalties against animals than invading foreigners.
 
Xavierlives said:
Oh, so charity should stop at the border to discourage movement? And, again, “stealing” implies criminal act. “Stealing” implies property. None of this is true.

Filling jobs… ok. Stealing jobs… no.

I’ve walked into a bank with a loaded gun. Does that make me a robber?
Click to expand...
If they are here illegally, everything they do involves a criminal act. Could I do these same things in Mexico?
 
Xavier, I am an attorney, a former prosecutor, so I will try to help you. Since you posted the entire statute, lets examine it:
The statute is a federal statute, passed by the US Congress. It has 4 sections. The heading is “Improper entry by alien.”
Section a is the part of the statute that defines the “enter” or “attempt to enter” (also "eluding"acts) which are criminal. It says that entering or attempting to enter is a crime. How do we know it is a “crime,” Xavier? …because it has a punishment of a fine and/or imprisonment of 6 months or if convicted a second time, 2 years, under (a) (3), and it references Title 18, the general Federal criminal statute.

You see Xavior, (a) begins with “any alien who…” (a) (1) ends with “or,”
(a)(2) ends with “or”
(a) (3) ends with the specific fine and imprisonment…that relates to (a)(b) AND (c)…
So the fines and prison mentioned in (c) cover any acts committed in (a) (b) AND (c)…
There is a comma after the word “fact” in (a) (3).

Section b also allows a civil penalty to be imposed, in addition to the criminal fine and imprisonment. Section (b) (2) states," Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to ,and not in lieu of, any CRIMINAL or any other penalties that may be imposed."
(Of course Xavier,that means that the civil penalty is NOT the only punishment that can be imposed…it means BOTH. ok?)

Section c also defines another criminal act…marriage fraud. If one commits that act, it is punishable by prison and or a fine of $250,000.

Section d in another crime…immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud, again the punishment is fine and/or prison, as defined by Title 18, the geleral criminal statute.

If you can find another lawyer who disagrees with my analysis, let me know.

Here in fact is a case where a guy was prosecuted for violation of Title 8 US Code Section 1325 (a). Look specifically at footnote 2.
openjurist.org/335/f3d/421/united-states-v-perez-macias
 
d97c said:
Xavier, I am an attorney, a former prosecutor, so I will try to help you. Since you posted the entire statute, lets examine it:
The statute is a federal statute, passed by the US Congress. It has 4 sections. The heading is “Improper entry by alien.”
Section a is the part of the statute that defines the “enter” or “attempt to enter” (also "eluding"acts) which are criminal. It says that entering or attempting to enter is a crime. How do we know it is a “crime,” Xavier? …because it has a punishment of a fine and/or imprisonment of 6 months or if convicted a second time, 2 years, under (a) (3), and it references Title 18, the general Federal criminal statute.

You see Xavior, (a) begins with “any alien who…” (a) (1) ends with “or,”
(a)(2) ends with “or”
(a) (3) ends with the specific fine and imprisonment…that relates to (a)(b) AND (c)…
So the fines and prison mentioned in (c) cover any acts committed in (a) (b) AND (c)…
There is a comma after the word “fact” in (a) (3).

Section b also allows a civil penalty to be imposed, in addition to the criminal fine and imprisonment. Section (b) (2) states," Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to ,and not in lieu of, any CRIMINAL or any other penalties that may be imposed."
(Of course Xavier,that means that the civil penalty is NOT the only punishment that can be imposed…it means BOTH. ok?)

Section c also defines another criminal act…marriage fraud. If one commits that act, it is punishable by prison and or a fine of $250,000.

Section d in another crime…immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud, again the punishment is fine and/or prison, as defined by Title 18, the geleral criminal statute.

If you can find another lawyer who disagrees with my analysis, let me know.

Here in fact is a case where a guy was prosecuted for violation of Title 8 US Code Section 1325 (a). Look specifically at footnote 2.
openjurist.org/335/f3d/421/united-states-v-perez-macias
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I am too am lawyer and I will readily admit when I don’t read something correctly. I admit I scanned the law because of your poorly cut and paste job. I don’t practice immigration law and it was my recollection from my immigration law class from when I was a wee lad that immigration violations were viewed under their own terms in their own court and fell under a civil action. I am surprised I got an A in the class and have had such a failure of memory. I apologize to you and the forum for misquoting the law by stating it was not a crime when in fact it is a misdeamor.

But like any good litigator knows, while I might get something wrong, I can still win my case. And what was that case again? Oh yes! Christian charity! Whew, we almost lost sight of it from the distraction from man’s law. Now, counselor, would you please show me in the Bible where God tells us not to care for aliens?
 
d97c said:
Xavier, I am an attorney, a former prosecutor, so I will try to help you. Since you posted the entire statute, lets examine it:
The statute is a federal statute, passed by the US Congress. It has 4 sections. The heading is “Improper entry by alien.”
Section a is the part of the statute that defines the “enter” or “attempt to enter” (also "eluding"acts) which are criminal. It says that entering or attempting to enter is a crime. How do we know it is a “crime,” Xavier? …because it has a punishment of a fine and/or imprisonment of 6 months or if convicted a second time, 2 years, under (a) (3), and it references Title 18, the general Federal criminal statute.

You see Xavior, (a) begins with “any alien who…” (a) (1) ends with “or,”
(a)(2) ends with “or”
(a) (3) ends with the specific fine and imprisonment…that relates to (a)(b) AND (c)…
So the fines and prison mentioned in (c) cover any acts committed in (a) (b) AND (c)…
There is a comma after the word “fact” in (a) (3).

Section b also allows a civil penalty to be imposed, in addition to the criminal fine and imprisonment. Section (b) (2) states," Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to ,and not in lieu of, any CRIMINAL or any other penalties that may be imposed."
(Of course Xavier,that means that the civil penalty is NOT the only punishment that can be imposed…it means BOTH. ok?)

Section c also defines another criminal act…marriage fraud. If one commits that act, it is punishable by prison and or a fine of $250,000.

Section d in another crime…immigration-related entrepreneurship fraud, again the punishment is fine and/or prison, as defined by Title 18, the geleral criminal statute.

If you can find another lawyer who disagrees with my analysis, let me know.

Here in fact is a case where a guy was prosecuted for violation of Title 8 US Code Section 1325 (a). Look specifically at footnote 2.
openjurist.org/335/f3d/421/united-states-v-perez-macias
Click to expand...
I am too am lawyer and I will readily admit when I don’t read something correctly. I scanned the law because of your poorly cut and paste job. I don’t practice immigration law and it was my recollection from my immigration law class from when I was a wee lad that immigration violations were viewed under their own terms in their own court and fell under a civil action. I am surprised I got an A in the class and have had such a failure of memory. I apologize to you and the forum for misquoting that 8 USC 1325 (a) was not a crime when in fact it is a misdemeanor.

But like any good litigator knows, while I might get something wrong, I can still win my case. And what was that case again? Oh yes! Christian charity! Whew, we almost lost sight of it from the distraction from man’s law. Now, counselor, would you please show me in the Bible where God tells us not to care for aliens?
 
Xavierlives said:
Oh, so charity should stop at the border to discourage movement? And, again, “stealing” implies criminal act. “Stealing” implies property. None of this is true.

Filling jobs… ok. Stealing jobs… no.

I’ve walked into a bank with a loaded gun. Does that make me a robber?
Click to expand...
No, stealing is taking something that does not belong to you. In the US, you have to be a US citizen or legal alien to work. When someone comes here and gets a job and has neither status, then they are stealing that job.
 
To compare the legal immigration of today with the legal immigration of the 19th century is in many respects comparing apples to oranges. It was much easier in the bureaucratic sense (NOT in the economic or social sense, of course) to immigrate then than it is today. The Irish who came after the potato famine or the Germans who came after the 1848 revolutions didn’t have to apply for visas, get work permits, line up sponsors, go through criminal background checks, etc. because those things didn’t exist. They just got on the boat and showed up.

After Ellis Island was built, a few more requirements like rudimentary medical examinations were added, but still, just about anyone who was able to work, didn’t have a contagious disease or was not from a country with strict immigration quotas could immigrate legally. Immigrants were expected to bring certain documents such as birth certificates, but not all did.
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WHAT? Today, immigrating to the US is a snap compared to years ago. Where do you get your information?

If you coughed while in line waiting for your physical, you were deported. Families were split up. Some were accepted and some were deported. There wasn’t this crybaby BS that we witness today. If they found you unexceptable, you were gone.

And when you mention the Irish, don’t forget the NY City Draft Riot during the American Civil War. No sooner was an Irishman coming off the boat from Ireland, when he was drafted to fight for the Union cause.

Also, in the 70’s and 80’s, if you wanted to be an American or even live here for awhile, you had to be sponsored by an American family. If the immigrant did something wrong, the sponsoring family was held liable for their actions.

Today, the illegals has all different kinds of groups fighting for there rights. Those same groups funnel money from legitimate programs that would feed real Americans. Oh and don’t forget Press 2 for Spanish. What other languages are favored for legal documents. NONE!
 
I accept your apology. Yeah, the second offense is a felony, as I’m sure you saw.

To quote Bill Clinton, it depends on what the definition of “care” is. I think the host country gets to define what level and amount of “care” is provided . The Catechism says the host country, as far as it is “able,” should take in aliens. So, that’s why we have legal immigration. WE have decided to accept so many and from this or that place that the Congress and agencies of the US have determined WE need or want…not what the illegal decides THEY want. We "care " for many more millions of people than any nation in the history of mankind. We dont have to “care” for everyone who wants to come here. If you define “care” for aliens as taking in everyone who wanted to come here (and I’m sure you dont…do you?), then we should just eliminate borders and make Calderone our President.
So…how many can this nation "care " for? Just anyone who out runs a Border Patrol agent? and how do we show “care” for the person who hasn’t violated the laws??
 
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