T
- Status
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ladybri77
Guest
That’s just wrong. I’ve never heard of such a thing before. Thanks for enlightening me. I know that the support groups are different, but the therapy they put you through is not right. I’m sorry this happened to you.
P
pathia
Guest
They also blamed everything, all of it, on my parents. Every single thing was their fault (Because it has nothing to do with genetics). They made them the enemy in a young child’s mind. I got very angry at them, because it was ‘their fault’ (nevermind I had three siblings who were perfectly normal). I was angry at myself at failing, angry at my parents, angry at God, angry at everything.
I was told I was damned to hell at the age of eight. Who in their right mind tells a young child that? I didn’t even KNOW what gay MEANT. I just acted ‘too girly’ for anyone’s comfort and that was enough for them.
L
ladybri77
Guest
Thank God we are all saved by His Grace and none of us are going to hell. I pray that you find comfort in His sufferings. God Bless you.
A
Angels_Unaware
Guest
Pathia, it seems as if you are the way you are for biological reasons and that psychological counseling is not helpful for you.
There are others who have biological conditions that cannot be rectified by any known therapies. People who have autism, for example, cannot be made into intrinsically social human beings because they are neurologically wired differently.
You are neurologically wired differently, so it seems as if we must accept you, and you must accept yourself. Being intersex, by definition, is not being homosexual, and cannot be personally sinful. In abstract sense it is the result of a fallen, sinful world that people are born with heavy crosses like this, but it cannot be your fault.
I would be inclined to think that Jesus’ words, that some are born from their mothers wombs as eunuchs would apply to you. I can think of no justification to blame you for your condition, and I don’t think any thoughtful Christian could.
We have no theology on intersexism. I would think you will have to be a pioneer for us.
It appears to me that the only task before you is to somehow develop a sense of communion with God. Maybe you feel nothing and no sense of God because you were psychologically abused into thinking God could not accept you as you are. Maybe God does accept you as you are. I know that God does not want you to hate yourself or commit suicide.
Maybe you can derive some sense of peace for knowing that you are actually ahead of us. Jesus says that in heaven, we will be like the angels, neither marrying or given in marriage. Perhaps you are called to live this way early, before you reach heaven.
There are others who have biological conditions that cannot be rectified by any known therapies. People who have autism, for example, cannot be made into intrinsically social human beings because they are neurologically wired differently.
You are neurologically wired differently, so it seems as if we must accept you, and you must accept yourself. Being intersex, by definition, is not being homosexual, and cannot be personally sinful. In abstract sense it is the result of a fallen, sinful world that people are born with heavy crosses like this, but it cannot be your fault.
I would be inclined to think that Jesus’ words, that some are born from their mothers wombs as eunuchs would apply to you. I can think of no justification to blame you for your condition, and I don’t think any thoughtful Christian could.
We have no theology on intersexism. I would think you will have to be a pioneer for us.
It appears to me that the only task before you is to somehow develop a sense of communion with God. Maybe you feel nothing and no sense of God because you were psychologically abused into thinking God could not accept you as you are. Maybe God does accept you as you are. I know that God does not want you to hate yourself or commit suicide.
Maybe you can derive some sense of peace for knowing that you are actually ahead of us. Jesus says that in heaven, we will be like the angels, neither marrying or given in marriage. Perhaps you are called to live this way early, before you reach heaven.
L
ladybri77
Guest
“Maybe you feel nothing and no sense of God because you were psychologically abused into thinking God could not accept you as you are”.
Very good point!
Very good point!
L
ladybri77
Guest
I know that when I’m tired, emotionally drained and needy, my temptation for this increases dramatically, it’s a way to comfort myself and try and fill a need that my mother nor I could not fill in the past.
Just like they teach to alcoholics, watch when you’re hungry, angry, lonely or tired…the same applies for this.
Just like they teach to alcoholics, watch when you’re hungry, angry, lonely or tired…the same applies for this.
H
hvadney
Guest
I am in discernment for the RC diaconate and have made it my business to examine most Vatican documents since Vatican II, especially those documents pertaining to ministries, missions, the diaconate, pastoral issues, the sacaramental orders. Much of what I have studied is somewhat vague and ambiguous and the fact that some RC dioceses actually have gay ministries muddles the matter even more.
No one has come out with a clear, practical working definition of what actually constitutes homosexuality is but terms like “homosexual tendancies” (practical, working definition, please?) statements have been made on what it is and even on for how long a man with homosexual tendancies must have abstained (3 years) before ordination.
Many of the statements made in this thread are just as–forgive my choice of words but…–opinionated as the mainstream and the passage cited in Romans (Rom 1:18-32) implies homoeroticism but also in part relates to exchanging the creature for the creator. Moreover, in that chapter of Romans, Paul is rather pointing out that mankind was in the throes of a desperate plight and required God’s intervention if they were to be saved. Important also to note is that God refused that intervention (in OT-style vindictiveness?) and gave the benighted over to various wickednesses, including but not limited to that of the flesh. Paul includes in this passage other such wickednesses including envy, gossip, covetousness, boastfulness, etc. He sees these wickednesses as a “reversal of nature” and is teaching that those who do not know God deserve what they get in the end “death” (spiritual). Paul is entertaining a discussion with an imaginary partner and is posing the questions of whether the Jew knows God better, does a knowledge of God’s law deliver from God’s judgment. The point here is idolatry (reversing worship of the creature and the creator), Mosaic law, and the Gospel.
I do agree that those of us who believe we are called by the Holy Spirit to ministries and even to orders should examine both our conciences and lifestyles on a regular basis but I also believe that if the call is a true call and the Holy Spirit is nudging us to a ministry and the call is truly from the Holy Spirit that is a call from God and who is man to decide (bishop or priest or laity) that a person of faith should ignore a call from God because of some human moral frailty?
To be absolutely clear, I have no problem living a life of celebacy and that’s been my choice as a person devoted to a Franciscan lifestyle and I personally work hard to avoid lust of any kind. Moreover, I agree very strongly that even married heterosexuals should avoid sacramental orders for a number of well-founded reasons. If one is not called to the vocation of marriage and has opted for celebacy and attempts a life-discipline of chastity (implied in celebacy but–if I am not mistaken–no perpetual vow of chastity is mandated in orders for men unless it is included in a religious rule), it matters little whether the individual is heterosexual or homosexual (again, I’m using the terms as undefined).
I would further encourage non-professionals, non-clergy, non-catechists, non-scriptural scholars, non-canon law scholars to avoid making pronouncements on such a volatile subject with too much enthusiasm. Whether hetero- or homosexual, all people are people of God and those mortals among us who love the Catholic faith–even those ignorant of her in-depth teachings–are still people of the pilgrim Church and should all strive to lead a gospel life, one of love, forgiveness, mercy, and caritas. Without a comprehensive and catholic (note the lower case) familiarity with *all *of the Church’s teachings and allied subjects and disciplines (including the notions of social justice!) we should be very cautious about pontificating on poorly defined issues.
We should pray very hard for the guidance of the Holy Spirit when reflecting on such questions as these and also ponder just how far you want your exclusory concepts to reach and whether we are doing God’s work by advocating OT punition vs. Christian love. The question is not black and white and does have implications. Do some of you wish to exclude homosexuals from the sacraments overall? If already baptized and confirmed, do we annul those initiations? If the homosexual is a good nun or a good priest or a good lay minister and has borne his/her cross with dedication, love, and sacrifice, do we promote a zero-tolerance program and discharge them? What about the homosexuals who deny their homosexuality and do marry? Some of you sound happy with that idea as long as the homosexual does not act on his/her “nature”. But aren’t you just as much in denial as that very person? Judgment is for God, not us. We are commanded to proclaim his Word and to live Gospel lives and that’s what we should be doing; that’s the primary, primordial Catholic imperative.
If there is some well-tutored, well-read, well-practices apologist out there who would like to respond with well-researched response, I am most willing to humbly listen with God’s ear.
Peace and blessings to you all!
No one has come out with a clear, practical working definition of what actually constitutes homosexuality is but terms like “homosexual tendancies” (practical, working definition, please?) statements have been made on what it is and even on for how long a man with homosexual tendancies must have abstained (3 years) before ordination.
Many of the statements made in this thread are just as–forgive my choice of words but…–opinionated as the mainstream and the passage cited in Romans (Rom 1:18-32) implies homoeroticism but also in part relates to exchanging the creature for the creator. Moreover, in that chapter of Romans, Paul is rather pointing out that mankind was in the throes of a desperate plight and required God’s intervention if they were to be saved. Important also to note is that God refused that intervention (in OT-style vindictiveness?) and gave the benighted over to various wickednesses, including but not limited to that of the flesh. Paul includes in this passage other such wickednesses including envy, gossip, covetousness, boastfulness, etc. He sees these wickednesses as a “reversal of nature” and is teaching that those who do not know God deserve what they get in the end “death” (spiritual). Paul is entertaining a discussion with an imaginary partner and is posing the questions of whether the Jew knows God better, does a knowledge of God’s law deliver from God’s judgment. The point here is idolatry (reversing worship of the creature and the creator), Mosaic law, and the Gospel.
I do agree that those of us who believe we are called by the Holy Spirit to ministries and even to orders should examine both our conciences and lifestyles on a regular basis but I also believe that if the call is a true call and the Holy Spirit is nudging us to a ministry and the call is truly from the Holy Spirit that is a call from God and who is man to decide (bishop or priest or laity) that a person of faith should ignore a call from God because of some human moral frailty?
To be absolutely clear, I have no problem living a life of celebacy and that’s been my choice as a person devoted to a Franciscan lifestyle and I personally work hard to avoid lust of any kind. Moreover, I agree very strongly that even married heterosexuals should avoid sacramental orders for a number of well-founded reasons. If one is not called to the vocation of marriage and has opted for celebacy and attempts a life-discipline of chastity (implied in celebacy but–if I am not mistaken–no perpetual vow of chastity is mandated in orders for men unless it is included in a religious rule), it matters little whether the individual is heterosexual or homosexual (again, I’m using the terms as undefined).
I would further encourage non-professionals, non-clergy, non-catechists, non-scriptural scholars, non-canon law scholars to avoid making pronouncements on such a volatile subject with too much enthusiasm. Whether hetero- or homosexual, all people are people of God and those mortals among us who love the Catholic faith–even those ignorant of her in-depth teachings–are still people of the pilgrim Church and should all strive to lead a gospel life, one of love, forgiveness, mercy, and caritas. Without a comprehensive and catholic (note the lower case) familiarity with *all *of the Church’s teachings and allied subjects and disciplines (including the notions of social justice!) we should be very cautious about pontificating on poorly defined issues.
We should pray very hard for the guidance of the Holy Spirit when reflecting on such questions as these and also ponder just how far you want your exclusory concepts to reach and whether we are doing God’s work by advocating OT punition vs. Christian love. The question is not black and white and does have implications. Do some of you wish to exclude homosexuals from the sacraments overall? If already baptized and confirmed, do we annul those initiations? If the homosexual is a good nun or a good priest or a good lay minister and has borne his/her cross with dedication, love, and sacrifice, do we promote a zero-tolerance program and discharge them? What about the homosexuals who deny their homosexuality and do marry? Some of you sound happy with that idea as long as the homosexual does not act on his/her “nature”. But aren’t you just as much in denial as that very person? Judgment is for God, not us. We are commanded to proclaim his Word and to live Gospel lives and that’s what we should be doing; that’s the primary, primordial Catholic imperative.
If there is some well-tutored, well-read, well-practices apologist out there who would like to respond with well-researched response, I am most willing to humbly listen with God’s ear.
Peace and blessings to you all!
B
Bruno_Schulz
Guest
**Its obvious, that world-wide the “homosexual league” makes such a lot of fuss about and around themselves, and “the right of being homosexual”; a straight or heterosexual person never would dare to, nor find any need to do, so or even mention it.
They think announcing their so-called “preferences” it’s normal. No, it’s not – it’s perverted.
And it’s sin too as put down here:
Romans 1:26
So, if it’s right asking: “What should a homosexual person do?“
Why not at the same time ask: “What should a heterosexual person do?“
Asking a (straight) person such thing, he/she would astonished ask back: What do you mean – what should I do?! On what?
So – it’s rally an extremely senseless question both ways.
I know; “homos” are vigorously fighting for “their right to be homosexual”.
Do I have to fight for my being heterosexual? Do I even talk about sexuality and sexual matters? No! Never!
That’s left to those who deep inside know it’s perverse and make their perverted sexuality their master who rules them.
And the excuse: “I just am this way” is terribly weak, for it’s you who says so, who picked this way as your favourite one, and now you let you be mastered by this evil and blame the circumstances. Get off this lie. It’s disgusting.
**
They think announcing their so-called “preferences” it’s normal. No, it’s not – it’s perverted.
And it’s sin too as put down here:
Romans 1:26
- Mose 19,5
- Mose 18,22
- Mose 20,13
- Cor 6:9
and others.
So, if it’s right asking: “What should a homosexual person do?“
Why not at the same time ask: “What should a heterosexual person do?“
Asking a (straight) person such thing, he/she would astonished ask back: What do you mean – what should I do?! On what?
So – it’s rally an extremely senseless question both ways.
I know; “homos” are vigorously fighting for “their right to be homosexual”.
Do I have to fight for my being heterosexual? Do I even talk about sexuality and sexual matters? No! Never!
That’s left to those who deep inside know it’s perverse and make their perverted sexuality their master who rules them.
And the excuse: “I just am this way” is terribly weak, for it’s you who says so, who picked this way as your favourite one, and now you let you be mastered by this evil and blame the circumstances. Get off this lie. It’s disgusting.
**
H
hvadney
Guest
Pardon me if I come across as ignorant but I presumed that the discussions on this forum were addressing Catholic questions? If I am incorrect or have misapprehended the purpose of the forum or this particular thread, please correct me and save me from making a fool of myself.
Also, a previous poster is referring to what appears to be a scriptural passage apparently in the Book of Mose? I may have missed the most recent edition of the New American Bible or some other version but my collection does not have a Book of Mose. Perhaps the writer would publish the passages s/he is referring to in full so we can all participate in a discussion of the texts.
As for 1 Cor 6:9, “… neither fornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers …” is a pretty wide range (besides, if you are assuming that boy prostitutes are necessarily homosexuals, please see the original Greek and do some history readings on Roman and Greek customs involving the catamites), Scripture should be interpreted with extreme caution where there is a paucity of linguistic, historical, and cultural learning.
One final caveat: Be extremely careful when citing OT scripture when discussing Catholic issues, especially when citing the Book of Mose [sic].
An interesting point for discussion literally popped into my head: The previous contributor notes correctly that homosexuals are fighting vigorously for recognition. Let me play devilishly devil’s advocate just to illustrate not a moral point but an absolute historical point: did not the early Christians fight [viz. campaign, struggle] vigorously for recognition? Did not the 19th and 20th century negro fight vigorously for recognition? What will history do with the “homosexual fight”?
Peace and blessings!
Also, a previous poster is referring to what appears to be a scriptural passage apparently in the Book of Mose? I may have missed the most recent edition of the New American Bible or some other version but my collection does not have a Book of Mose. Perhaps the writer would publish the passages s/he is referring to in full so we can all participate in a discussion of the texts.
As for 1 Cor 6:9, “… neither fornicators nor idolators nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers …” is a pretty wide range (besides, if you are assuming that boy prostitutes are necessarily homosexuals, please see the original Greek and do some history readings on Roman and Greek customs involving the catamites), Scripture should be interpreted with extreme caution where there is a paucity of linguistic, historical, and cultural learning.
One final caveat: Be extremely careful when citing OT scripture when discussing Catholic issues, especially when citing the Book of Mose [sic].
An interesting point for discussion literally popped into my head: The previous contributor notes correctly that homosexuals are fighting vigorously for recognition. Let me play devilishly devil’s advocate just to illustrate not a moral point but an absolute historical point: did not the early Christians fight [viz. campaign, struggle] vigorously for recognition? Did not the 19th and 20th century negro fight vigorously for recognition? What will history do with the “homosexual fight”?
Peace and blessings!
L
ladybri77
Guest
In response to hvadney -
Well, according to Holy Scripture and Catholic teaching, my own experience, the experience of others, spiritual books on healing and homosexuality, and the Holy Spirit within me, I can say that it’s a sin to act out homosexually. It’s not a sin to have the feelings. One should further resolve through prayer, spending time with the Lord, meditation on His Passion, and perhaps some kind of sound spiritual counseling, go deep and dissolve the root cause of why do I have these feelings? What need am I trying to meet through acting out in this way? As they say, homosexuality is an illigitimate way to meet legitimate needs.
Another thing, when you act on it, it only strengthens the desires, and makes that empty place in your heart even bigger. Ask God to fill that hole in your heart. As the scripture says (ad.lib) - When you feed the flesh, the flesh grows. When you feed the Spirit, the Spirit grows in you.
Well, according to Holy Scripture and Catholic teaching, my own experience, the experience of others, spiritual books on healing and homosexuality, and the Holy Spirit within me, I can say that it’s a sin to act out homosexually. It’s not a sin to have the feelings. One should further resolve through prayer, spending time with the Lord, meditation on His Passion, and perhaps some kind of sound spiritual counseling, go deep and dissolve the root cause of why do I have these feelings? What need am I trying to meet through acting out in this way? As they say, homosexuality is an illigitimate way to meet legitimate needs.
Another thing, when you act on it, it only strengthens the desires, and makes that empty place in your heart even bigger. Ask God to fill that hole in your heart. As the scripture says (ad.lib) - When you feed the flesh, the flesh grows. When you feed the Spirit, the Spirit grows in you.
S
StAnastasia
Guest
Rubbish. I didn’t choose to be heterosexual; my gay and lesbian friends did not choose to be born gay or lesbian.
L
ladybri77
Guest
In response to hvadney -
Well, according to Holy Scripture and Catholic teaching, my own experience, the experience of others, spiritual books on healing and homosexuality, and the Holy Spirit within me, I can say that it’s a sin to act out homosexually. It’s not a sin to have the feelings. One should further resolve through prayer, spending time with the Lord, meditation on His Passion, and perhaps some kind of sound spiritual counseling, go deep and resolve the root cause of why do I have these feelings? What need am I trying to meet through acting out in this way? As they say, homosexuality is an illigitimate way to meet legitimate needs.
Another thing, when you act on it, it only strengthens the desires, and makes that empty place in your heart even bigger. Ask God to fill the hole in your heart. As the scripture says (ad.lib) - When you feed the flesh, the flesh grows. When you feed the Spirit, the Spirit grows in you.
As a suggestion, perhaps you should attend a Courage conference (a Catholic ministry to help those suffering with homosexuality which teaches sound Catholic doctrine) which they have once a year and learn more about homosexuality and homosexual sufferers.
Well, according to Holy Scripture and Catholic teaching, my own experience, the experience of others, spiritual books on healing and homosexuality, and the Holy Spirit within me, I can say that it’s a sin to act out homosexually. It’s not a sin to have the feelings. One should further resolve through prayer, spending time with the Lord, meditation on His Passion, and perhaps some kind of sound spiritual counseling, go deep and resolve the root cause of why do I have these feelings? What need am I trying to meet through acting out in this way? As they say, homosexuality is an illigitimate way to meet legitimate needs.
Another thing, when you act on it, it only strengthens the desires, and makes that empty place in your heart even bigger. Ask God to fill the hole in your heart. As the scripture says (ad.lib) - When you feed the flesh, the flesh grows. When you feed the Spirit, the Spirit grows in you.
As a suggestion, perhaps you should attend a Courage conference (a Catholic ministry to help those suffering with homosexuality which teaches sound Catholic doctrine) which they have once a year and learn more about homosexuality and homosexual sufferers.
T
Teen4Christ
Guest
H
hvadney
Guest
I was not aware that anyone makes a personal choice to be born at all. I have always believed that one’s birth was in God’s plan from the start. How do you know that your gay and lesbian friends were not simply born gay or lesbian and that it was not God’s plan that they be so?
Reminds me of a series of programs I was watching last nite on the subject of the super-obese and bariatric surgery. The question arose in my mind again and again of whether they chose to suffer such super-morbid obesity (a man 1,000 lbs, a woman 800+ lbs, an 800-lbs 19-year old?) or was it the doting, controlling mother, or the social system that encouraged fast-food adicitions. Ironically, the programs were apparently sponsored by MacDonalds even when one of the patients claimed that his addition to MacDonalds fast-food “caused” him to be 800+ lbs overweight! Now the analogous question I would pose is: Did these people choose to be adicted to food; to suffer as they did from immobility, exclusion, physical diseases? Were they predisposed to the addiction/obesity? Did society at large and consumerism/capitalism create their condition? Can this analogy be applied to x-number of other human conditions?
Peace and blessings!
L
ladybri77
Guest
In response to hvadney -
Well, according to Holy Scripture and Catholic teaching, my own experience, the experience of others, the Courage ministry/conferences, spiritual books on healing and homosexuality, and the Holy Spirit within me, I can say that it’s a sin to act out homosexually. It’s not a sin to have the feelings. One should further resolve through prayer, spending time with the Lord, meditation on His Passion, and perhaps some kind of sound spiritual counseling, go deep and resolve the root cause of why do I have these feelings? What need am I trying to meet through acting out in this way? As they say, homosexuality is an illigitimate way to meet legitimate needs.
Another thing, when you act on it, it only strengthens the desires, and makes that empty place in your heart even bigger. Ask God to fill the hole in your heart. As the scripture says (ad.lib) - When you feed the flesh, the flesh grows. When you feed the Spirit, the Spirit grows in you.
As a suggestion, perhaps you should attend a Courage conference (a Catholic ministry to help those suffering with homosexuality which teaches sound Catholic doctrine) which they have once a year and learn more about homosexuality and homosexual sufferers.
Well, according to Holy Scripture and Catholic teaching, my own experience, the experience of others, the Courage ministry/conferences, spiritual books on healing and homosexuality, and the Holy Spirit within me, I can say that it’s a sin to act out homosexually. It’s not a sin to have the feelings. One should further resolve through prayer, spending time with the Lord, meditation on His Passion, and perhaps some kind of sound spiritual counseling, go deep and resolve the root cause of why do I have these feelings? What need am I trying to meet through acting out in this way? As they say, homosexuality is an illigitimate way to meet legitimate needs.
Another thing, when you act on it, it only strengthens the desires, and makes that empty place in your heart even bigger. Ask God to fill the hole in your heart. As the scripture says (ad.lib) - When you feed the flesh, the flesh grows. When you feed the Spirit, the Spirit grows in you.
As a suggestion, perhaps you should attend a Courage conference (a Catholic ministry to help those suffering with homosexuality which teaches sound Catholic doctrine) which they have once a year and learn more about homosexuality and homosexual sufferers.
B
block
Guest
You don’t think homosexuality is a choice? I don’t understand this statement. I do agree that in very very rare cases a person can be born with this disease, but I would say that a good majority of homosexuals were not born that way, and somewhere down the line allowed themselves to become brainwashed. Homosexuality is a choice, and it’s an evil choice. It is blind lust that serves no purpose other than fulfilling selfish pleasure.
B
block
Guest
Wow, my eyes and mouth were both gaped open when I read this.
T
Teen4Christ
Guest
I disagree, most gays are not brainwashed, the only gays that are are those who choose to deny their feelings and ex-gays
L
ladybri77
Guest
The feelings of homosexuality are not a choice, it’s what you do with them that are. I believe they come from deep repressed anger, bitterness, or pain and how we react to that. Also, any unmet needs we might have, trying to meet them in our own way, not God’s way. The scripture says that unresolved bitterness causes all sorts of problems. I don’t believe it is a disease or that you are born with it. Any cross God can use for His Glory to be performed in you.
- Status