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Salibi
Guest
Thanks for sharing
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Thorolfr
Guest
Some people here in CAF still seem to think that gay people should keep their sexual orientation a secret and not talk about, but this shows why it was important for them to come out and be open about it instead.
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edwest211
Guest
You are changing the subject again. It is off topic. I watched and read what the US Military wrote about this subject. A particular document presented information that clearly pointed out how recent attempts to integrate gay, lesbian and transgender persons would cause problems. I’ve known gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender persons. But there are cases where complications could occur.
When I go shopping, the last thing I’m concerned about is if the man standing in front of me in line is gay or not. There is no need to know.
When I go shopping, the last thing I’m concerned about is if the man standing in front of me in line is gay or not. There is no need to know.
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BroIgnatius
Guest
McCarthy was correct in believing Communist had infiltrated the government. Bella Dodd was one of the people who facilitated that infiltration not only in government, but into the Catholic Church. Being a Communist should be a disqualifier to government jobs.
Where McCarthy went to far was to try to out Communist in industries outside of government, like the entertainment business. In that realm, the 1st Amendment applies. A person has a Constitutional right to be a Communist in the private sector.
Where McCarthy went to far was to try to out Communist in industries outside of government, like the entertainment business. In that realm, the 1st Amendment applies. A person has a Constitutional right to be a Communist in the private sector.
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meltzerboy2
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Thank you. I was beginning to wonder what kind of revisionist history exists on CAF regarding Sen. Joe McCarthy, judging by several of the comments. Truly bizarro world.
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BroIgnatius
Guest
It was correct, at the time, to try to get homosexuals out of government because it was a National Security risk. Since homosexuals in the 1940s and 50s kept their “orientation” secret, a foreign government could and did pressure homosexuals with “outing” if they did not cooperate. That makes it a National Security issue – at the time.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
I’m not referring only to the gay issue at the time, but to many other comments as well which seem to excuse and even praise McCarthy’s efforts against communism. He was a zealot and a bully, obsessed with communist infiltration everywhere, not only in government. Our country suffered as a result of his fanaticism. Let’s not sugar coat the McCarthy era.
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edwest211
Guest
A bit of history. During the 1940s, the FBI warned the US Government about Communists and subversives in the country. The Cold War had started right as World War II ended. Winston Churchill told the world that an Iron Curtain had descended over the Soviet Union. Our former Ally was now our enemy. Of course Communists to this day would deflect public attention and call the 1950s, the period of the Red Scare. Few people know about the secret Secret Intelligence Service of the FBI that operated outside of the country during World War II. Communism was a global problem.
But back to the US. Anyone, including private citizens, were subject to investigation by the House Unamerican Activities Committee. With good reason. After the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, certain documents were declassified. President Clinton helped to accelerate this process: “President Clinton in April 1993 ordered a review of classification procedures, promising a new executive order limiting the kinds of records that the government can classify and putting a ceiling on the number of years records will retain their classified status.” Source: Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press.
But back to the US. Anyone, including private citizens, were subject to investigation by the House Unamerican Activities Committee. With good reason. After the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s, certain documents were declassified. President Clinton helped to accelerate this process: “President Clinton in April 1993 ordered a review of classification procedures, promising a new executive order limiting the kinds of records that the government can classify and putting a ceiling on the number of years records will retain their classified status.” Source: Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press.
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meltzerboy2
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Yes, even if they are not communists. Why take any chances? Down with pinkos.
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angel12
Guest
Fortunately, our Constitution disagrees with you.
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edwest211
Guest
The concept of the ‘McCarthy era’ is fictional. The FBI tried to warn the US Government about Communist infiltration in the 1940s. The Russians detonated their first atomic bomb in August, 1949. By no coincidence, China became Communist the following month. In 1950, the Russians started a proxy war in Korea and introduced the MiG-15 jet fighter. The US would introduce the very similar F-86. China decided to send troops. The US briefly considered the use of atomic bombs against the Chinese. This was rejected by President Truman. That war lasted till 1953. The Russians were very concerned about the US response. In May 1953, an atomic cannon was test fired in the US. A number were deployed to South Korea and Western Europe and not retired until 1963. The Russians did not like this surprise and wondered about what else the US had up its sleeve. After all, both countries were racing to get their ICBM programs completed. In 1959, the first ICBMs were deployed.
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edwest211
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How do you know that? Sources?
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Thorolfr
Guest
According to an online article:
Joseph McCarthy still seems to have admirers among people who still look at things this way. It has been pointed out that it was necessary back then to fire homosexuals who worked for the Federal Government because by keeping their sexual orientation a secret, they could be blackmailed. But what choice did they have? In addition to being considered a mental illness, homosexual activity was also a crime.
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Thorolfr
Guest
So, would you prefer a monarchy, perhaps?
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angel12
Guest
Ah, I see. Only those who agree with you should have rights. Got it.
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edwest211
Guest
No attempt to correct history should be made without examining the period. At the time, the best scientific evidence indicated that homosexuals had a disorder. Did the general public at the time not trust doctors? Those that provided treatments for physical and psychological problems were trusted to be doing the right thing. It appears that whatever was published at the time has been dismissed in the present. It is still a mystery as to why the American Psychiatric Association removed Homosexuality as a disorder from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual by vote in 1973. A further mystery is lobbying for a diagnosis change for transgender persons. In 2013, Gender Identity Disorder was removed from the DSM-5. “Elated activists in the ‘LGBT’ community had lobbied the APA for the change for years.” (National Catholic Register.)
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CaptFun
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phil19034’s post at #41 includes a bit of CATHOLIC background (per this thread’s topic).
Pius XI’s 1937 warnings came BEFORE Stalin and Hitler co-opted to divide Poland and start World War II (formally in Sept. 1939). And before Stalin took over Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia … subdued Finland and captured an Empire of supposedly liberated by the Allies Eastern European states.
After watching what the Nazi’s did to the Jews … might a good Catholic not notice that an even bigger country was now persecuting Catholics in its power, and was on a rather obvious march to world conquest step by step? Whether McCarthy was that “good Catholic”, I don’t know. But it really only takes ONE side to start a war … and when you are on the other side … it’s good to know that you’re IN a war and adopt a wartime posture for the duration. Surrender or hiding one’s head like an ostrich was another option many (people and nations) tried during the 1930s and 40’s to their detriment.
As an American … Mc Carthy fought in the Pacific Theatre where in his words, many died “for what they thought was going to be a better world.” And what they got was a more dangerous one … with an ally betrayed (China) in favor of Mao Tse-tung … whose “volunteers” were soon streaming over the border of Korea to steal the victory of the UN forces after the Communist aggressors were defeated and pushed back.
It is ridiculous to dismiss as witch hunts the due diligence of examining whether people with possible allegiances to an enemy in a shooting war (forGIVE me … “police action”) should be able to keep highly privileged and sensitive government positions (including the military) without at least explaining themselves and, yes TAKING a loyalty oath … instead of a 5th amendment refusal. Witch hunt somewhat implies “there ARE no witches … (and everyone knows it)”. But there were spies … and pardon Mc Carthy and others from noticing … they’d already done horrendous damage. The A-bomb secrets shuttled off to Stalin … thus keeping 1/3 of the world in virtual slavery. American collusion with Mao in negotiating “peace treaties” that saved the Communist armies in jeopardy and weakened the Nationalist Chinese under Chiang … until the latter had to flee to Formosa (Taiwan).
Mc Carthy a bully? Yet his enemies gloat that he never put anyone in jail even (not his job by the way).
(continued)
Pius XI’s 1937 warnings came BEFORE Stalin and Hitler co-opted to divide Poland and start World War II (formally in Sept. 1939). And before Stalin took over Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia … subdued Finland and captured an Empire of supposedly liberated by the Allies Eastern European states.
After watching what the Nazi’s did to the Jews … might a good Catholic not notice that an even bigger country was now persecuting Catholics in its power, and was on a rather obvious march to world conquest step by step? Whether McCarthy was that “good Catholic”, I don’t know. But it really only takes ONE side to start a war … and when you are on the other side … it’s good to know that you’re IN a war and adopt a wartime posture for the duration. Surrender or hiding one’s head like an ostrich was another option many (people and nations) tried during the 1930s and 40’s to their detriment.
As an American … Mc Carthy fought in the Pacific Theatre where in his words, many died “for what they thought was going to be a better world.” And what they got was a more dangerous one … with an ally betrayed (China) in favor of Mao Tse-tung … whose “volunteers” were soon streaming over the border of Korea to steal the victory of the UN forces after the Communist aggressors were defeated and pushed back.
It is ridiculous to dismiss as witch hunts the due diligence of examining whether people with possible allegiances to an enemy in a shooting war (forGIVE me … “police action”) should be able to keep highly privileged and sensitive government positions (including the military) without at least explaining themselves and, yes TAKING a loyalty oath … instead of a 5th amendment refusal. Witch hunt somewhat implies “there ARE no witches … (and everyone knows it)”. But there were spies … and pardon Mc Carthy and others from noticing … they’d already done horrendous damage. The A-bomb secrets shuttled off to Stalin … thus keeping 1/3 of the world in virtual slavery. American collusion with Mao in negotiating “peace treaties” that saved the Communist armies in jeopardy and weakened the Nationalist Chinese under Chiang … until the latter had to flee to Formosa (Taiwan).
Mc Carthy a bully? Yet his enemies gloat that he never put anyone in jail even (not his job by the way).
(continued)
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CaptFun
Guest
(Continued)
He was right to criticize the building of a Voice of America radio station on a lowlands Washington State coastal site (where of course there’d be poor broadcasting interrupted by storm after storm).
They chided his committee for book burning … when Communist literature was not SUPPOSED to be purchased by the gross by US Information Centers abroad (whose mission it was to present the American side TO Europe).
Yes, his committee also looked at “security risks” as well as loyalty risks in government. Probably such still ARE examined today.
While it was HUAC, years before that began examining Hollywood – Mc Carthy’s committee did sometimes interview some high profile people. Mostly, that’s all they did.
As some countries around the world were succumbing to Communism, it was hard not to notice that powerful Communist propaganda often softened up the ground before the “revolutions” or military coups, or the abdication of benign democracies to Soviet backed forces. Think Joseph Goebbels, Red version. Walt Disney and Ronald Reagan warned that Hollywood Studios and Unions were being strongarmed by domestic Communists.
What should Catholics think of Senator Mc Carthy?
Here’s one Catholic that wonders why Joseph Stalin almost gets excused more by historians
roll_eyes: - but … remember … He was our ally!) despite leaving his lifetime of betrayal and carnage behind him … than young (died at 42) Joe Mc Carthy … whose willingness to hold his OWN party to the same standards he’d set for the opposition … marks him as rather unique. < An opportunist would shrink from hurting his political base … while a true believer (that the US was indeed in peril from a threat already proven REAL … and possibly still getting stronger) might have done what Mc Carthy did.
If he did the right thing … for selfish, or mean or what he thought were just crowd-gulling reasons …
points off … but I still appreciate the right things getting backed – especially when being soft on Communism was so in vogue and the seeming preference of the mainstream media of that time.
He was right to criticize the building of a Voice of America radio station on a lowlands Washington State coastal site (where of course there’d be poor broadcasting interrupted by storm after storm).
They chided his committee for book burning … when Communist literature was not SUPPOSED to be purchased by the gross by US Information Centers abroad (whose mission it was to present the American side TO Europe).
Yes, his committee also looked at “security risks” as well as loyalty risks in government. Probably such still ARE examined today.
While it was HUAC, years before that began examining Hollywood – Mc Carthy’s committee did sometimes interview some high profile people. Mostly, that’s all they did.
As some countries around the world were succumbing to Communism, it was hard not to notice that powerful Communist propaganda often softened up the ground before the “revolutions” or military coups, or the abdication of benign democracies to Soviet backed forces. Think Joseph Goebbels, Red version. Walt Disney and Ronald Reagan warned that Hollywood Studios and Unions were being strongarmed by domestic Communists.
What should Catholics think of Senator Mc Carthy?
Here’s one Catholic that wonders why Joseph Stalin almost gets excused more by historians
roll_eyes: - but … remember … He was our ally!) despite leaving his lifetime of betrayal and carnage behind him … than young (died at 42) Joe Mc Carthy … whose willingness to hold his OWN party to the same standards he’d set for the opposition … marks him as rather unique. < An opportunist would shrink from hurting his political base … while a true believer (that the US was indeed in peril from a threat already proven REAL … and possibly still getting stronger) might have done what Mc Carthy did.If he did the right thing … for selfish, or mean or what he thought were just crowd-gulling reasons …
points off … but I still appreciate the right things getting backed – especially when being soft on Communism was so in vogue and the seeming preference of the mainstream media of that time.
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Thorolfr
Guest
What “scientific evidence” are you talking about? Compared to the rest of modern medicine, psychology and psychiatry are the least scientific. And that’s not to deny their importance. As someone with ADHD, I’ve benefited from seeing both psychologists and psychiatrists. And I think that everyone could benefit from seeing a therapist from time to time when life becomes difficult as it sometimes does. But after having spent time being treated by people in this field and having read a lot of books about it, I don’t have any illusions about psychology or psychiatry being very scientific.
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edwest211
Guest
There was a Communist Party in the United States. Joseph Stalin was an Ally as long as it served his purpose. And Communists and Communist sympathizers worked in the news media and Hollywood. Movies could be very influential and the FBI was on the alert for any Communists or subversives. The United States began cracking Russian codes before the end of World War II. There was good information about what Joseph Stalin was doing. Killing anyone in the Party who was or suspected to be an enemy occurred. Scientists and some in the military were also killed. The Russian Army swept into the Ukraine and took away the harvest, causing mass starvation (1932-1933). That event is commemorated today as the Holodomor. It is no surprise that modern Russia is still making trouble in the Ukraine.
I recall some people walking through my neighborhood in the early 1970s, passing out free copies of the Socialist Worker. I refused to take one.
Western historians are reluctant to give Joseph Stalin a full historical treatment. The Tehran Conference in 1943, Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt. The Yalta Conference with the same Heads of State in February 1945. The November 1943 meeting in Egypt with Chinese leader Chiang Kai-shek, where Roosevelt and Churchill agreed to a pre-eminent role for China in postwar Asia.
Our enemy could not be antagonized with a complete historical account. We were producing aircraft for the Russians under Lend-Lease and sending them American tanks and other equipment. I think the American people would be very confused to learn that the first Russian bombers threatening the United States during the Cold War were actually B-29 copies made by the Russians based on the three examples they had acquired. And the United States and Great Britain would have a lot of explaining to do regarding Conferences that decided, before the end of the war, how the world would be carved up after.
I recall some people walking through my neighborhood in the early 1970s, passing out free copies of the Socialist Worker. I refused to take one.
Western historians are reluctant to give Joseph Stalin a full historical treatment. The Tehran Conference in 1943, Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt. The Yalta Conference with the same Heads of State in February 1945. The November 1943 meeting in Egypt with Chinese leader Chiang Kai-shek, where Roosevelt and Churchill agreed to a pre-eminent role for China in postwar Asia.
Our enemy could not be antagonized with a complete historical account. We were producing aircraft for the Russians under Lend-Lease and sending them American tanks and other equipment. I think the American people would be very confused to learn that the first Russian bombers threatening the United States during the Cold War were actually B-29 copies made by the Russians based on the three examples they had acquired. And the United States and Great Britain would have a lot of explaining to do regarding Conferences that decided, before the end of the war, how the world would be carved up after.
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