J
- Status
N
nsper7
Guest
Sola Fide:
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16, RSV)
Remember, if you read the Gospels and examine wording carefully, Jesus does not connect much to eternal life. Obeying the commandments is connected to loving Jesus. Giving up everything and bearing one’s cross is connected to discipleship. Neither loving Christ or discipleship is connected to getting eternal life.
The word for ‘believes’ in John 3:16 does not connote love or even following, instead it connotes trust and intellectual acknowledgment.
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16, RSV)
Remember, if you read the Gospels and examine wording carefully, Jesus does not connect much to eternal life. Obeying the commandments is connected to loving Jesus. Giving up everything and bearing one’s cross is connected to discipleship. Neither loving Christ or discipleship is connected to getting eternal life.
The word for ‘believes’ in John 3:16 does not connote love or even following, instead it connotes trust and intellectual acknowledgment.
Where does he connect being perfect to receiving eternal life? Notice that no punishment is given for being imperfect.
J
JRKH
Guest
Just to clarify, is this an answer to the OP, or the definition of Sola Fide that was asked for earlier.
This answer does not answer my question.
R
ralphinal
Guest
Well, from what I can read, Jesus did say that several things had ot be done.
First, we must be born again of water and the Spirit.
Second, we must love God with all of our being and love our neighbors as ourselves.
Third, if we love Christ, we must keep his commandments, which is to forgive those who hurt us, pray for those who hate us, and care for everyone that we come into contact with.
Forth, we will be judged on how we cared for the least of our brothers, per Matt 25:31-46. Those who did not feed the hungry, etc, were sent to hell.
Jesus preached a Gosple of action, not thought alone.
First, we must be born again of water and the Spirit.
Second, we must love God with all of our being and love our neighbors as ourselves.
Third, if we love Christ, we must keep his commandments, which is to forgive those who hurt us, pray for those who hate us, and care for everyone that we come into contact with.
Forth, we will be judged on how we cared for the least of our brothers, per Matt 25:31-46. Those who did not feed the hungry, etc, were sent to hell.
Jesus preached a Gosple of action, not thought alone.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Very important. But Baptism is not our doing…it is the work of God.
Thinking about the Gospel doesn’t save us. The only action verbs in the Gospel are Jesus’ actions.
R
ralphinal
Guest
Correct with baptism, but we MUST BE baptised. If it is available to us, we must do it.
How do you see Matt 25: 31-46?
po18guy
Well-known member
This is from a thread I started:
Considering all of the “sola” doctrines floating around, and the following scriptures, I wonder why the doctrine of “sola amor” has not surfaced in certain churches. Could it be because no bible is required for it, as none was in Christ’s time? Bear in mind that the bible is now indispensable, although it was not always so.
John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”
John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Romans 12:10 “Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.”
Romans 13:8 “Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.”
Galatians 5:13 “You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.”
Ephesians 4:2 “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.”
Hebrews 10:24 “And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.”
1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Considering all of the “sola” doctrines floating around, and the following scriptures, I wonder why the doctrine of “sola amor” has not surfaced in certain churches. Could it be because no bible is required for it, as none was in Christ’s time? Bear in mind that the bible is now indispensable, although it was not always so.
John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”
John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Romans 12:10 “Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.”
Romans 13:8 “Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.”
Galatians 5:13 “You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love.”
Ephesians 4:2 “Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.”
Hebrews 10:24 “And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.”
1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
R
ralphinal
Guest
You should add love God with all your mind, heart, soul and stregnth and love your neighbor as yourself.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
He never says in exact wording “You can’t keep the commandments.” He does however say that none is good but the Father in heaven. If our righteousness must equal that of the Father (be ye perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect) in order to be obedient to the commandments, in that statement he disqualifies all but God. He demonstrates this with the rich young ruler, who thought he had obeyed all the commandments, and Jesus demonstrated that he had not.
When the Pharisees in Luke 10:25-37 asks Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life; “By loving the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind,” and as if that wasn’t enough, “by loving your neighbor as yourself.” To the self righteous, this sounds easy enough. But, Jesus puts the nail in the coffin of self righteousness when he says, “Do this and you shall live.“ You see, there is one little catch. Sin. No one can love God like that. No one that is, except the Son of God, Jesus himself. None of us loves God with the kind of perfect love Jesus describes here. None of us puts one hundred percent of our heart, strength and soul into loving God. We can’t. The old Adam in us won’t let us. And God expects perfection. Remember, we are told, “You are to be holy as I am holy.” And realizing this, is where the “fear” part comes in to the meaning of the commandments.
Jesus’ preaching of the Law and the commandments, if we are honest with ourselves is never good news. The good news is that Jesus kept them.
N
nsper7
Guest
I was giving an answer to the OP.
It was not so much meant to answer your question as much to point out the weakness of your claim (no insult intended). You said that nowhere does Jesus overtly say that perfection is unattainable (although I believe it is implied throughout the whole of Scripture…if perfection were attainable, we would not need a Saviour, would we?). I then pointed out that Jesus never gives a punishment for being imperfect, which then, if we are only going by Jesus’s words, means that there really is no reason to seek perfection if we are discussing Salvation only here and thus renders the issue moot.
Okay. What does that mean though? Some have argued that natural birth is being born ‘of water’ and being born ‘of Spirit’ occurs when you believe in Christ.
Where is that connected to receiving eternal life?
Where is loving Christ and keeping His commandments connected to Salvation?
The major problem with using those verses is that they seem to be addressing non-Believers. I would say this because the word used to describe those being judged is ‘nations’ (ethnos in Greek). Never is ‘ethnos’ used to describe Christians by Christ (although St. Paul uses the word to describe Gentile Christians). In the Septuagint, it was used to describe people not worshipping the True God (this is according to Strong’s Lexicon/Concordance). And notice that belief/faith is never even mentioned, which would go against even faith+works model since it subtracts faith from the equation.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Right…the water, the priest/pastor is the means that God uses to carry out His work, through the Church. The means, however, do not save us. The act of God does.
In Matthew 25, the Great Judgment… Through faith in Christ, united to Him in baptism, we are “in” Christ, thus, Christ having kept the Law perfectly in our stead, suffering the punishment for our sins we deserve… His works will be seen as our works. In Christ, we have kept all of the commandments. We will therefore be innocent at the judgment. That is the Gospel message.
However, as with all passages of Scripture, the Law also applies here. The unrepentent sinner who reads this passage should be very, very, very afraid. If he is, through the Spirit, he will realize that the standard that Christ lays out before us here is not possible to attain to, and will throw himself at the feet of the cross and trust in Christ alone for pardon.
For the Christian, this passage should be one that also motivates us to put our faith into action to help those who are the least among us; knowing that by grace we will be rewarded for the work of the kingdom.
R
ralphinal
Guest
So if we do nothing yet beleive, all is good? If we are rewarded for doing the work, are we punished for not doing it?
N
nsper7
Guest
Well, there may well be punishments, but is that punishment loss of eternal life? You can lose eternal rewards and you can face temporal punishment (read the OT, never is Hell directly threatened, but plenty of other punishments are).
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
“And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”
Jesus did the work for us. That is the Gospel.
We will certainly be chastised for disobedience in this life. This is the means God uses to grow us in sanctification. Also, sinful actions can kill faith. If a believer loses faith, they are no longer justified. (This would be in contradiction to once saved always saved, which is patently false.)
N
nsper7
Guest
Since you’re Lutheran, I have to ask: how does sinful action kill faith? If we are Saved by believing in Christ for Salvation, it would seem that the only way to lose one’s Salvation would by be disbelieving. Remember, Salvation (eternal life) is received by belief in Christ for Salvation, not by not sinning.
R
ralphinal
Guest
Then why does Jesus tell the apostles to “baptise them in the name of the Father, and of the SOn, and of the Holy Spirit?” Besides, if someone is not born they are not alive in the first place. We must be baptised AND accept the Holy Spirit.
Matt 19:16-21, Mark 10:17-22, Luke18:18-25. We also see in Matt 22:34-40, Jesus simplified the Ten to Two: Love God, love your neighbor. These are also echoed in Mark and Luke
Is not loving Christ a part of accepting him? You cannot follow Jesus if you do not do as he did: take up your cross.
I will accept your word argument, as I cannot read the Greek. I will point out that it does not remove Christians from the group, either. Faith alone cannot be enough, because Jesus says in Matt 7:21 that not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will be saved, only those who DO the will of the Father.
R
ralphinal
Guest
NO issue with the las part. What is the Book, Chapter and verse on that quote?
Work according to Paul is almost always works of the Law. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a time when he means it to mean good works done for others.
po18guy
Well-known member
Excellent suggestion. That makes it appear even more likely that if Christ taught a “sola”, it was sola amor. Great point! But, you notice that no bible is needed for sola amor…
Christ’s peace.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Edward Koehler, author of A Summary of Christian Doctrine, puts it this way (I’ll steal his words): “There are also willful sins against the conscience (1 Tim. 1:19) that cause faith to be lost. The Lutheran Confessions hold that ‘one is not to imagine a kind of faith that can exist and abide with, and alongside of, a wicked intention and to act against the conscience.’ Willful impenitence concerning one sin kills faith in the forgiveness of all sins because faith cannot live in an impenitent heart…Faith and mortal sin cannot coexist.”
- Status