What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[Thorwald]

It is not acceptable to the Catholic Church, either. The Church defines repentance and contrition differently from the case you presented above.

That is debatable, even doubtful.

I love your ‘Latin’ addition at the bottom of your thread. Especially the ‘ego’ part. Your response ‘That is debatable, even doubtful’, tells me that you are not a Christian. You have in effect ‘nullified’ the whole reason why Christ was sent to earth. You have made yourself a judge of God’s teachings, and taken away the gift that He has promised to all of mankind. The promise of redemption, is a promise to everyone. This is very clear, in the scripture.

Thorwald Johansen

 

[guanophore]

When it comes to Mary(mother of Jesus, James, Joses, Jude,among others) there seems to be a difference in how we define disrespect!

Ascribing activities to her, such as making these children, is disrespecful. In fact, scripture is clear that these children belong to “the other Mary”!

 

[jlhargus]

JL: Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM **that GOSPEL **which **I PREACH **among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN. [Even though sent by Christ, Paul who had the gift of revelation, realized he could possibly not be preaching the same gospel as the Apostolic Fellowship. Paul was inspired by revelation to check his doctrine with that infallible doctrine of the Apostles’ Fellowship, sent by Christ, to teach all Christ commanded till the end of the age. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide in ALL TRUTH. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without the lest disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then** THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there **WERE ADDED UNTO THEM **about three thousand souls. 42 And they CONTINUED stedfastly IN the **APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE **and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were brought into the Chruch by baptism and continued stedfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostles Fellowship.] 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and the same judgment. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

 

[2John1vs3]

Continued:

I followed the brothers from Palestine to Rome, two of the greatest, Peter and Paul who were both martyred in Rome. The successor of Peter is the bishop of Rome, and holds the keys of the Davidic kingdom a type or foreshadowing of the regenerated and restored spiritual kingdom of Israel in the new covenant (Mt 19:28). Christ the Son of David is king in David’s line, who will build a house for God, (2Sam 7:12-14). Peter is the first minister (prime minister) [Isa22:19 I will drive you from your station 20 I will call my servant Eliakim 21 I will commit your government to his hand he shall be a father to the people of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut he shall shut and none shall open] Eliakim will be the new Prime Minster and called father of Jerusalem, in the Davidic Kingdom, he will succeed Shebna. So in the restored Kingdom of David, Peter will be Prime Minister and called father=pope in the new Jerusalem=Church. The keys indicate the holder has authority over the other royal ministers (or apostles) as they do not receive keys, also indicates the head office has successors. When the office is vacant it is filled by the King in David’s line, who is Christ, with another by giving of the keys. Jesus alluded to this passage when giving the keys to Peter, Mt 16. Incidentally if Christ is King in David’s line, his mother, which all generations will call blessed, is Gebirah (Queen Mother) 1Kings 2:19. From Solomon the son of David, who built a house for God, there was an office of queen mother in the Dividic Kingdom, the type and foreshadowing of the new Kingdom. The king Christ, the Son of David, is building a habitaion for God of living stones.

Where’s that from? Your exegesis of the old testament prophets is incorrect. The promise is to Israel and as yet unfulfilled. Christ Himself when the age of the Gentiles is over will rule over Israel.
Your little fiction is what is believed at Rome and is a blueprint designed and being followed by the Jesuits on behalf of putting the entire world in subjection to the pope, who will reign from the third Temple in Jerusalem AS the Antichrist of Daniel and Revelation.
You should heed the words of Revelation 18:4 “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

 

[Cinette]

Thorwald!

Just one thing before you take that sabbatical - who is the “4th member” of the Trinity you keep talking about?

 

[Hesychios]

…When I have a problem with the understanding of scripture, I go to God for wisdom…not man.

The Trinity and the Godhead consists of four figures, not three,… I have been in their presence.

Most interesting…

The Trinity is The Father, The Son (The Word) and The Holy Ghost. The Son (The Lord God Almighty) created His redeemer (The Lord of Hosts), before creating all else.

So, if I read this correctly, you are stating that there is one God Almighty, and under him are the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Is that correct?

The above has been taught to me by God, Himself.

Thorwald Johansen

What you state may make sense to you. You may be relying upon your own intellectual capacity to figure this out in an original way.

However it is not received teaching.

What you state about one God above another is similar to what some famous heretics espoused in the past but it is not the teaching of the Fathers. Therefore we are not going to be able to see it your way.

Further, the age of revelation has closed. That means no matter how much logic or good common sense this theology seems to you it is not real. The voice or message you have heard is not from God.

You may be in danger.

 

[jlhargus]

Where’s that from? Your exegesis of the old testament prophets is incorrect. The promise is to Israel and as yet unfulfilled. Christ Himself when the age of the Gentiles is over will rule over Israel.
Your little fiction is what is believed at Rome and is a blueprint designed and being followed by the Jesuits on behalf of putting the entire world in subjection to the pope, who will reign from the third Temple in Jerusalem AS the Antichrist of Daniel and Revelation.
You should heed the words of Revelation 18:4 “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

JL: You should read some Protestant theologians.

Is 22:22 not 21. The following snips I have taken from the book Jesus, Peter & The Keys A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy, by Scott Butler, Norman Dahlgree and David Hess, Queenship Publishing Company

FF Bruce who taught NT Biblical Exegesis a the University of Manchester in The Hard Saying of Jesus, (Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity, 1983), 143-144 (Isaiah 22:22). so in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward. (Pg 41 Jesus, Peter & The Keys)

W.F. Albright and C.S. Mann, the Anchor Bible: Matthew, (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1971), 196: Isaih xxii 15 ff. Undoubtetly lies behind this [Mathew 16:19] saying… (Pg 41 Jesus, Peter & The Keys)

Intervarsity Press produced a commentary analyzing Isaiah 22:22 and its relationship to Matthew 16:19, “The image of keys (plural) perhaps suggests not so much the porter, who controls admission to the house, as the steward, who regulates its administration (Is 22:22, in conjunction with 22:15. The issue then is not that of admission to the church (which is not what the kingdom of heaven means; see pp. 45-47) but an authority derived from a delegation of God’s sovereignty.” Craig S. Keener, the IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Intervarsity Press, 1993), 256. (Pg 43 Jesus, Peter & The Keys)

The keeper of the keys his authority within the house as administrator and teacher (cf. Isa. 22:20-25, which may have influenced Matthew here). M. Eugene Boring, “Matthew,” in Pheme Perkins and others, eds., The New Interpretter’s Bible. Vol. 8, (Nashville, TN: Abingdon Press, 1995), 346. (Pg 43 Jesus, Peter & The Keys)

The keys of the kingdom of heaven: the phrase [from Matthew 16:19] is almost certainly based on Is. 22:22… D. Guthrie and others, The New Bible Commentary, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1953 [reprinted by Inter-Varsity Press], 837. (Pg 44 Jesus, Peter & The Keys)

 

[JonNC]

Remember all of the priests that defiled the bodies of little boys that were placed in their care? I do not blame the R.C. faith for this, but the Word tells us, that we will know mankind by their works. What a person says, is often geared to the opinions/results that the speaker is trying to achieve. Their ‘works’ often tell a much different story. Their works are a true representaion of their hearts.

Thorwald Johansen

Thorwald,
I have been watching in another thread some things Luther said regarding Jews at the end of his life. These anti-Jewish words, rejected by all Lutherans, have been used to call into question Lutheran theology as a whole. It is unfair and it hurts.
So, I am a bit thin-skinned about the practice of blaming a communion for the bad actions or words of a few of its members. I find your use of these horrible events to advance your disagreement with Catholic teaching to be, at best, disturbing.

Jon

 

[jlhargus]

Your little fiction is what is believed at Rome and is a blueprint designed and being followed by the Jesuits on behalf of putting the entire world in subjection to the pope, who will reign from the third Temple in Jerusalem AS the Antichrist of Daniel and Revelation.
You should heed the words of Revelation 18:4 “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

JL: I have come out of her the tower of babel, sola scriptura a tradition of men made a doctrine of God about 1521. The tower that has scattered Protestants and is still doing so into myriads of contentious faith groups as they no longer speak the same faith language. The Holy Spirit does not scatter but gathers into one.

As far as a third temple, any Christian should know the third Temple is the one Christ the Son of David is building with living stones, as a habitation for God. If there is ever another temple built in earthly Jerusalem it will not be for God’s habitation. So I direct your quote back to you. Revelation 18:4 “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

 

[Lothair]

They CAN do it all day long OUTSIDE of the Mass. Dancing and shouting are not appropriate during the Mass.

Mass is no place for ‘hootin and hollerin’. As Catholics, we believe in the Real Presence of the King at the Altar. We can be joyful and solemn at the same time.

 

[Auriel]

Remember all of the priests that defiled the bodies of little boys that were placed in their care? I do not blame the R.C. faith for this, but the Word tells us, that we will know mankind by their works. What a person says, is often geared to the opinions/results that the speaker is trying to achieve. Their ‘works’ often tell a much different story. Their works are a true representaion of their hearts.

Thorwald Johansen

To be fair that happens in all denominations, even non christian ones. Happened in an Eastern religion over a year ago in my city. Can’t remember what type, Hindu, etc…but the arrest was on the news.

Happened to me in a Baptist church by a minister, and happened to a relative in a catholic daycare. I was not even school age at the time. It is sick and affects all of society, not just the Catholic church. If judged alone by that criteria, then all religions have failed the test.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Where’s that from? Your exegesis of the old testament prophets is incorrect. The promise is to Israel and as yet unfulfilled. Christ Himself when the age of the Gentiles is over will rule over Israel.
Your little fiction is what is believed at Rome and is a blueprint designed and being followed by the Jesuits on behalf of putting the entire world in subjection to the pope, who will reign from the third Temple in Jerusalem AS the Antichrist of Daniel and Revelation.
You should heed the words of Revelation 18:4 “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

With this quote you violate one of the main pillars of Protestantism.

Its obvious, as a Protestant, that you believe that one should go by the bible alone.

Well don’t you believe that every believer is entitled to interpret scripture as they feel guided by the Holy Spirit?

Are you saying that he, or we, can’t interpret scripture as the holy Spirit is guiding us to do?

Are you saying that your interpretation of scripture is superior to ours, much less those church fathers that expounded on scripture 1800 years ago who were much closer in time to Jesus than you or I?

I though sola scriptura taught that every believer can interpret scripture for themselves? Do you really believe that or not?

Or is that only those people who agree with YOU have the right to interpret scripture?

 

[Cinette]

I love your ‘Latin’ addition at the bottom of your thread. Especially the ‘ego’ part. Your response ‘That is debatable, even doubtful’, tells me that you are not a Christian. You have in effect ‘nullified’ the whole reason why Christ was sent to earth. You have made yourself a judge of God’s teachings, and taken away the gift that He has promised to all of mankind. The promise of redemption, is a promise to everyone. This is very clear, in the scripture.

Thorwald Johansen

When confronted with questions to which you cannot respond because you do not have the answers you resort to insults.

Hence you acuse the poster of not being a Christian. Jesus said “Judge not…” Perhaps you have not read that in the scriptures?

Anyway, one thing has become abundantly clear and that is :

YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW!!!

Its as simple as that.

Cinette

 

[JonNC]

I though sola scriptura taught that every believer can interpret scripture for themselves?

Nope. That’s not what SS actually teaches.

modernreformation.org/default.php?page=printfriendly&var1=Print&var2=19

Jon

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

When confronted with questions to which you cannot respond because you do not have the answers you resort to insults.

Hence you acuse the poster of not being a Christian. Jesus said “Judge not…” Perhaps you have not read that in the scriptures?

Anyway, one thing has become abundantly clear and that is :

YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW!!!

Its as simple as that.

Cinette

From St. Augustine:

But why doth “truth generate hatred,” and the man of thine, preaching the truth, become an enemy to them? Whereas a happy life is loved, which is nothing else but joying in the truth; unless that truth is in that kind loved, that they who love any thing else would gladly have that which they love to be the truth: and because they would not be deceived, would not be convinced that they are so?

Thus, thus, yea thus doth the mind of man, thus blind and sick, foul and ill-favoured, wish to be hidden, but that aught should be hidden from it, it wills not. But the contrary is requited it, that itself should not be hidden from the Truth; but the Truth is hid from it. Yet even thus miserable, it had rather joy in truths than in falsehoods. Happy then will it be, when, no distraction interposing, it shall joy in that only Truth, by Whom all things are true.

 

[SteveGC]

Nope. That’s not what SS actually teaches.

modernreformation.org/default.php?page=printfriendly&var1=Print&var2=19

Jon

Ok, two thoughts on this corrected explanation of SS…

1. Most modern Bible-only Christians have entrenched themselves into a “revisionist” SS doctrine. Which is to say (according to your source) Solo Scriptura (vs. Sola). This revision is one in which adherents claim that everyone can interpret Scripture on their own, and authentic SS’ers realize this is an errant view of SS, and definitely an errant view of determining Truth. Catholics would agree.
2. The “correct” doctrine of SS, namely Sola Scriptura, is based specifically on Martin Luther’s teaching, in which he promulgated the doctrine of interpretation of Scripture by the “church”…but not the Catholic Church as he once knew it…rather, the “reformed Catholic Church”, which in essence he made himself the head of.

Am I off base with how I’m understanding this so far?

If not, then going off of point #2…If Luther and his successors are the real “church” with interpretive authority, are these interpretations consolidated into consistent doctrines and teachings regarding faith and morals? Where do I find all these doctrines and teachings? Are they written somewhere? If I am a Lutheran, and I believe abortion is OK, and my Lutheran brother does not, what does the “church” say? Where are they? Where do I go to ask them about it? What about contraception, etc.? Are all moral arguments settled in a consistent, authoritative way within this “church”?

One final question…why do you think it was correct for Luther to reform externally, rather than internally. Does it not bother you, or other Lutherans, that a former Catholic broke from 1500 years of apostolic lineage (which He thought was entirely corrupt due to human corruption in his day), and essentially “started over” with a new line of succession on his own?

God Bless

 

[jlhargus]

To be fair that happens in all denominations, even non christian ones. Happened in an Eastern religion over a year ago in my city. Can’t remember what type, Hindu, etc…but the arrest was on the news.

Happened to me in a Baptist church by a minister, and happened to a relative in a catholic daycare. I was not even school age at the time. It is sick and affects all of society, not just the Catholic church. If judged alone by that criteria, then all religions have failed the test.

JL: Actually if you look at stats on line they show Protestant groups are the same or higher percent wise.

 

[JonNC]

=SteveGC;4941549]Ok, two thoughts on this corrected explanation of SS…

1. Most modern Bible-only Christians have entrenched themselves into a “revisionist” SS doctrine. Which is to say (according to your source) Solo Scriptura (vs. Sola). This revision is one in which adherents claim that everyone can interpret Scripture on their own, and authentic SS’ers realize this is an errant view of SS, and definitely an errant view of determining Truth. Catholics would agree.

Good.

1. The “correct” doctrine of SS, namely Sola Scriptura, is based specifically on Martin Luther’s teaching, in which he promulgated the doctrine of interpretation of Scripture by the “church”…but not the Catholic Church as he once knew it…rather, the “reformed Catholic Church”, which in essence he made himself the head of.

Not entirely true. This is not something Luther “made up” in a vacuum.

If not, then going off of point #2…If Luther and his successors are the real “church” with interpretive authority, are these interpretations consolidated into consistent doctrines and teachings regarding faith and morals? Where do I find all these doctrines and teachings? Are they written somewhere? If I am a Lutheran, and I believe abortion is OK, and my Lutheran brother does not, what does the “church” say? Where are they? Where do I go to ask them about it? What about contraception, etc.? Are all moral arguments settled in a consistent, authoritative way within this “church”?

The Book of Concord contains the Confessional writings, but noone that I know of claims that our church is the real church, as you put it, but we certainly consider ourselves part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.

One final question…why do you think it was correct for Luther to reform externally, rather than internally. Does it not bother you, or other Lutherans, that a former Catholic broke from 1500 years of apostolic lineage (which He thought was entirely corrupt due to human corruption in his day), and essentially “started over” with a new line of succession on his own?

Well, the short answer is he had no choice, as he was excommunicated, after he tried to do it internally (and we can discuss whether he did it poorly, and if the papacy did a poor job of listening to him). But the serious answer is it bothers the heck out of me, and it should all Lutherans and Catholics that we are separated from each other. There is nothing more disturbing to me than to notice Lutherans who are comfortable with this separation. We are a reformation church, not protestant, and our constant goal should be reunification.

Jon

 

[jlhargus]

Nope. That’s not what SS actually teaches.
modernreformation.org/default.php?page=printfriendly&var1=Print&var2=19
Jon

JL: Jon, while I agree sola scriptura may have originally meant scripture was to be interpreted within a faith community and most mainline Protestants officially follow the original meaning. It has become, by the majority of other Protestant groups and some within those mainline groups, private interpretation. I came from such a faith group. I would say most Protestants here are sola scriptura, private interpretation. Otherwise they would say otherwise. Even Luther complained that ever scullery maid thought they were a theologian. Also my expirience has been mainline Protestant groups are usually considered little better the Catholics.

 

[SteveGC]

Thanks for the responses, Jon.

Much more to be sorted out I suppose, but thanks for illuminating just how out-of-proportion modern Bible-only’s have distorted the SS argument.

One last question…why did Luther even call this concept Sola Scriptura, if in fact, he emphasized the role the church has in interpreting Scripture? Doesn’t that emphasis, by itself, suggest that the Scriptures cannot stand on their own (sola)?

God Bless