What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[Janet1983]

The poster of the list is Janet1983 dumped the list and fled. why?

Because I have quite a few things on my plate apart from being here (well you see that when you look at how long I’m here and hopw many posts have come from me in the rather long period of time).
I just found your messages and try to find your answer…

 

[racing59]

There seems to be so much in common across all Christians that i wondered what would need to be changed about the Catholic church before you would consider converting e.g. stop the focus on Mary as key for many but what else would need to change…

For me it is more what is missing in RCC.Covenant Theology and if the Eucharist is truely the REAL PRESENCE of Jesus Christ why aren’t Catholics like John was in Revelation Chapter one when he met Jesus,fell on his face. Lutherans are on there knees when they recieve.Why did so many Catholic Churches chaing that?

 

[Hypothesis]

For me, The Roman Pontiffs would have to stop praying in mosques and kissing blasphemous books for me to ever join the Novus Ordo church. Canon law was clear down through the ages that one was not to participate in non-catholic ceremonies. I know these laws have been changed…they would have to be because that would make John Paul II and Benedict XVI both extreme heretics.

I wonder what Jesus would think about going into the temple of Baal and taking your shoes off and praying toward their towers.

I would believe that 100% of the popes down through ages save John XXIII thru present would have all condemned entering a mosque and praying with heretics or kissing the schismatics.

 

[cazayoux]

For me it is more what is missing in RCC.Covenant Theology and if the Eucharist is truely the REAL PRESENCE of Jesus Christ why aren’t Catholics like John was in Revelation Chapter one when he met Jesus,fell on his face. Lutherans are on there knees when they recieve.Why did so many Catholic Churches chaing that?

I teach an 8th grade religion class at our parish (Catholic) and this is the exact thing I try to impress upon them.
The reverence is most important when it comes to the Eucharist.

The reverence IS there … maybe it’s just not in a form that you consider enough.
The apostles at the last supper didn’t react as John did in Revelation … which is quite a different experience. I mean really … being given a vision of heaven is quite a bit different from the experience of the Eucharist where we only know (rather than actually see as John did) heaven is touching earth.

I help them to see that the REAL PRESENCE is there.
I tie in John 6, the last supper, and the cross.

In John 6, Jesus is talking to his disciples (dozens? hundred?) and apostles when he tells them that to have life they must eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood. Some disciples respond saying this was a hard teaching and how can this man give us his flesh to eat. Jesus’ response is to REPEAT what he said with even more intensity. Many disciples leave. They took him to mean it literally and left because of it. Jesus didn’t call them back and say “wait … you misunderstood … I was only speaking symbolically or metaphorically” … he let them go. THEN he turns to his apostles and asked if they would leave him too. Their response was that they know he has the truth where else would they go. They didn’t understand HOW, but they believed Jesus.

Fast forward to the last supper … Jesus says “this is my body which will be given up for you”. I think the apostles would have had an ah-ha moment. THIS is what he meant. Now focus on the last part of that … “which will be given up for you”. Which body? The one that will be given up for you. How was it given up? On the cross. Was the body on the cross that was given up for you symbolic, or was it Jesus’ ACTUAL body? It was His ACTUAL body. At the last supper he says “this is my body WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU”.

This is the explanation I give the 8th graders and they GET IT!!
I SEE the reverence for the Eucharist in my parish … as it should be.
I SEE people bow reverently before receiving.
I SEE people in adoration coming into the chapel and sometimes prostrate themselves to the Jesus before going to a pew.

I won’t say that all people show or even have this reverence … but I agree with you that they SHOULD.

Cheers!

michel

 

[GraceDK]

For me it is more what is missing in RCC.Covenant Theology and if the Eucharist is truely the REAL PRESENCE of Jesus Christ why aren’t Catholics like John was in Revelation Chapter one when he met Jesus,fell on his face. Lutherans are on there knees when they recieve.Why did so many Catholic Churches chaing that?

On their knees they should have been. I always excuse them if I see a brother or sister who doesnt kneel at the Eucharist. I think one of four options:

• the person is from a culture where standing is a sign of more reverence than kneeling
• the person has a back injury, hindering kneeling
• the person has a knee injury that hinders kneeling
• the person doesnt have a clue what is going on infront of him/her

In my own congregation pretty much everyone are on their knees. I have never seen kneelers in prostestant churches at the seats, like there are in Catholic Churches.
Also, as a protestant I only learned to kneel when I met Catholics and became a Catholic myself… now I kneel personally as well as during the liturgy of the table in Church.
Only in the Catholic Church I have seen people not only kneeling but even being fully prostrated, laying down or half way down while Jesus stands infront of us.

This has been my experience.

Peace to you.

 

[Iwesshome]

What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

I wouldn’t say teachings but more of the churches mindset on issues. I feel the RCC has a mindset stuck 2000 years in the past and can’t seem to evolve much with the modern world. But who am I? With 1 billion Catholics in the world and let’s say 50% are devout my opinion isn’t going to matter much. My issues are actually very small when it comes down to it. Condoms for example. Now I am not a promiscuous person but to honestly say that using a condom for** any** reason or a woman to use the pill is a Mortal Sin really turns me off. I won’t even debate the issue of abortion because I can understand life is life and I respect the churches protection of life but I have a viewpoint that a person should be able to decide their own body’s fate not a church. I was happy when Pope JPII stated that the church could respect the viewpoint of evolution as long as it was accepted that God was the influence behind it. Reason why is because I felt the church took a step forward from ancient thinking and found a middle ground between two beliefs.

But at the end of the day it’s not the church but its members who point their fingers at me and judge me because I don’t agree with them on every church doctrine. They say “why become Catholic your beliefs condemn you?”, and other spiteful things to where I must ask "who are you to judge me?” So why would I want to place myself into an environment where I would constantly be a battle with the doctrine I swore an oath to follow?

 

[racing59]

I teach an 8th grade religion class at our parish (Catholic) and this is the exact thing I try to impress upon them.
The reverence is most important when it comes to the Eucharist.

The reverence IS there … maybe it’s just not in a form that you consider enough.
The apostles at the last supper didn’t react as John did in Revelation … which is quite a different experience. I mean really … being given a vision of heaven is quite a bit different from the experience of the Eucharist where we only know (rather than actually see as John did) heaven is touching earth.

I help them to see that the REAL PRESENCE is there.
I tie in John 6, the last supper, and the cross.

In John 6, Jesus is talking to his disciples (dozens? hundred?) and apostles when he tells them that to have life they must eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood. Some disciples respond saying this was a hard teaching and how can this man give us his flesh to eat. Jesus’ response is to REPEAT what he said with even more intensity. Many disciples leave. They took him to mean it literally and left because of it. Jesus didn’t call them back and say “wait … you misunderstood … I was only speaking symbolically or metaphorically” … he let them go. THEN he turns to his apostles and asked if they would leave him too. Their response was that they know he has the truth where else would they go. They didn’t understand HOW, but they believed Jesus.

Fast forward to the last supper … Jesus says “this is my body which will be given up for you”. I think the apostles would have had an ah-ha moment. THIS is what he meant. Now focus on the last part of that … “which will be given up for you”. Which body? The one that will be given up for you. How was it given up? On the cross. Was the body on the cross that was given up for you symbolic, or was it Jesus’ ACTUAL body? It was His ACTUAL body. At the last supper he says “this is my body WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU”.

This is the explanation I give the 8th graders and they GET IT!!
I SEE the reverence for the Eucharist in my parish … as it should be.
I SEE people bow reverently before receiving.
I SEE people in adoration coming into the chapel and sometimes prostrate themselves to the Jesus before going to a pew.

I won’t say that all people show or even have this reverence … but I agree with you that they SHOULD.

Cheers!

michel

Good post I appreciate it. I believe you are right when you said it may-be not enough for me. I just don’t understand why the reverence you hold in your parish is not Universal. It sends alot of mixed messages to people who are not Catholic. I would think they all would treat the Mass as the Holy of Holies.

 

[racing59]

On their knees they should have been. I always excuse them if I see a brother or sister who doesnt kneel at the Eucharist. I think one of four options:

• the person is from a culture where standing is a sign of more reverence than kneeling
• the person has a back injury, hindering kneeling
• the person has a knee injury that hinders kneeling
• the person doesnt have a clue what is going on infront of him/her

In my own congregation pretty much everyone are on their knees. I have never seen kneelers in prostestant churches at the seats, like there are in Catholic Churches.
Also, as a protestant I only learned to kneel when I met Catholics and became a Catholic myself… now I kneel personally as well as during the liturgy of the table in Church.
Only in the Catholic Church I have seen people not only kneeling but even being fully prostrated, laying down or half way down while Jesus stands infront of us.

This has been my experience.

Peace to you.

**Lutherans kneel while recieving Communion. I understand if some one has a disability,but I don’t understand the ill-reverance I have seen at some Catholic Churches.

Peace be with you!**

 

[Janet1983]

Answer part 1 of 3

1. Salvation as a graduate process
   I don’t know what you mean by that.
   This is something that I did not know when I was a Catholic and it did not concern me very much. I did however pick up a Catholic tract that said the following: “Our salvation is realized through these ten stages”
   Jesus being born - Jesus being faithful until death - Jesus being raised by the Father - Jesus ascending to the right hand of the Father - Jesus being glorified and the Spirit being poured upon the Apostles - the Apostles being empowered - repentance, belief, baptism - working out one’s salvation - eat the flesh and drink the blood - being made new when Christ returns.
   I don’t agree with this because according to the Bible this is not correct:
   We need to repent and believe to receive Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour (be born again). He is the only way and we cannot work out our salvation. This is a gift and we cannot earn this salvation. Jesus Christ then governs our lives and we cannot be snatched from His hand. Once we are saved we have the assurance of entering into His kingdom and His glorious presence after we pass away. This is a glorious gift that we have through the atonement of our sins through Jesus Christ. We cannot enter heaven when we are sinful. Jesus Christ however died for our sins once and for all and that means that if we come unto Him we will be saved.
   There are no works that we can do to gain entry into heaven. Once we are saved however works will follow as we are being led by the Holy Spirit.
   Repent:
   Luke 13:3 - “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
   Believe:
   John 3:18 - “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
   Be born again:
   John 3:3 - “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
   Saved by grace:
   Eph 2:8-9 - “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
2. Apocrypha
   What about the apocrypha? It is part of the canon and very beautiful and inspiring.
   Sure they are nice and inspiring, but so are many other books. The apocrypha however are books that are not part of Scripture. Maccabees for example is a simple history book and surely nice to read but so are other books. Even the Jewish tradition does not include these books into their scripture. This clearly sets the canonical books apart from the apocrypha.
   Are you aware how much care is taken to preserve the word of the Torah?
3. Teachings about Mary, including her staying a virgin after Jesus was born, the assumption that she was without sin and the she ascended into heaven with her body and soul That is a whole study on its own. We love her dearly. We believe in her role in our lives. We believe in her Apparitions and her messages. She points us to God always. She is Blessed. She is Special. We will never forsake her – she will never forsake us.
   Mary was a sinner and in need for a Saviour herself. She expresses this clearly in the Magnificat. Mary was blessed by the Lord just as all of His children are today. We are blessed and Mary clearly states that too. Being used by the Lord in a role so prominent that she could raise the one that would become the Saviour of the world is a blessing indeed. She is however a saint among many believers till today. She is in heaven among many many others and she does have a place there. She can however not answer any prayers. As much as I cannot ask a relative who has passed away to intercede for me I cannot ask Mary. We don’t even need to do so. Jesus himself said “Come unto me” and we should do so because He alone is the way to the Father. Mary can’t help us and elevating her into such a position is more than questionable.

 

[Janet1983]

Answer part 2 of 3

1. Excluding women from the clergy – I have thought about that and believe that women have a different role from men. I have no problem with that.
   Women are actually more important than some tend to admit. Looking at 2 John 1:1 for example:
   “The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;”
   The letter is written to the elect lady. The word “elect” is translated from the Greek ἐκλεκτός (eklektos) meaning “chosen by God”. “Lady” is translated from κυρία (kyria), the female word for κύριος (kyrios).
   In Matthew 10:24 this word is translated as “lord” - “The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.”
   κύριος is he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding: a master or a lord. It is a title of honor expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master.
   2 John is addressed to a lady in such a position. John addresses her as the chosen lord, or leader and it is obvious further on that she is in charge of a church that meets in her house. He assigns her responsibility for keeping the false apostle/prophets/teachers out of her house church. She is the pastor/leader of the church.
   Other female leaders are:
   Deborah in Judges 4:4 - “And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.”
   Lydia in Acts 16:14-15 - “And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.”
   Phebe in Romans 16:1 - “I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:” (The word “servant” is translated from the Greek διάκονος (diakonos) which is subsequently translated as minister or servant. She was a a deacon. One who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use.)
   Chloe in 1 Corinthians 1:11 - “For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.”
   Scripture also clarifies that women will prophecy:
   Acts 2:17-18 - “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:”
   1 Corinthians 11:5 - “But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth…”
2. Forced celibacy of the clergy
   *I understand that a man’s first responsibility is to his family. A priest’s first responsibility is to his flock. However, here I believe that sometimes a man may have a vocation to be an ordained priest and also an Father to children, his children. I have known such men and they remained faithful to the Church even after they left the priesthood. I even employed an ex-Priest. There are many Anglican priests who today are Catholic priests and they have families. I believe that there should be a special Order of Married priests. This may still happen. *
   The word “priest” cannot be found in connection with Christian offices in the Bible. Others however are clearly stated:
   Bishop in 1 Timothy 3:2 - “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;”
   Deacons in 1 Timothy 3:12 - “Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.”
   While I was at it I continued reading a little further:
   1 Timothy 4:1-5 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
   For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.”
3. The church as the Church of Christ instead of realizing that the Church are truly all Christians that are saved and atoned for by the blood of Christ. All baptized and believing Christians comprise the Body of Christ – Catholics have the fullness of truth and nonCatholics have part of the truth. The Pope is their spiritual Father as well.
   The pope is surely not my spiritual father…
   Matthew 23:9 - “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”

 

[Janet1983]

Answer part 3 of 3

1. Not accepting other Christian churches are equally valid and right while declaring that somebody who was raised in a totally different religion can obtain salvation if he was truly seeking after God… (Jesus said “I AM THE WAY” and He meant it) *The Catholic Church does not teach that nonCatholics do not have access to salvation. This is totally nonsense. Other Christian Churches are not equally valid no – they are our separated brethren. *
   If I may quote the CCC…
   “The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: ‘For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.’” Pg. 215, #816
   “…all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…” Pg. 224, #846
   If the Catholic church is necessary to escape hell and reach heaven, would not God have clearly stated it in His Word… at least once? Why would Jesus repeatedly lie by saying that salvation is available through faith in Him?
2. Not opposing the evolution theory This is a whole subject on its own. The Church does not reject the theory of evolution outright and it has its reasons. The Church promotes science and realizes that it is an ongoing thing. I do not know enough on the subject to elaborate.
   Try and study it… It’s really interesting and wonderful all the same. All the evidence points towards a creator. God created this universe and He is in charge. Genesis is true and the Bible is the infallible word of a living and omnipotent God whom we serve. He spoke everything into being.
3. Traditions as equally important as God’s Word in the Bible * There is a clear difference between Traditions of God and traditions of men. The Catechism explains it very thoroughly.*

Mark 7:8 - “For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.”

1. Not acknowledging that salvation is only by the pure grace of God What nonsense – I have never heard of such a thing. Janet – who told you that???
   The Catholic church teaches that one has to be a member to obtain salvation (see above) and she also teaches that one has to do good works to be saved:
   “Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved.” Pg. 222, #837
   These works include baptism (pg. 320, #1257), various sacraments (pg. 292, #1129) plus many additional works.
   The Bible however teaches us that we are saved by grace alone…
   Ephesians 2:8-9 - “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
   Titus 3:5 - “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”
   Romans 3:28 - “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
   Galatians 3:8 - “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”
   We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
2. Not acknowledging the absolute inerrant Word of God as manifested in the Bible **&^%$#@?"% What nonsense!! Janet WHO told you that??

Why would the Church have to interpret God’s Word for me then? It’s God’s Word and it is inerrant… Why shouldn’t I read it myself?
“The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.” Pg. 30, #100
The Church interprets things in their own form and fashion and declares some things to be literally right and others to be in need of interpretation. If the Bible is the inerrant Word of God it is true from cover to cover including the creation, Moses leading the people through the sea and Jesus walking on water.
One account after the other was given to me as figurative when I was in religious education classes at school. How can the Word of God be inerrant if it is subjected to the interpretation of man?

You are right in one point: I would not return to the Catholic church. This is a matter of importance to me as I can and will not choose the Church instead of God. At some point in time I was actually thinking about it… My reasoning was the following: In what direction does the Church lead me and in what direction does the Word of God lead me? Had it been the same direction there wouldn’t have been a problem for me, but it wasn’t the same direction and so there is a problem. I cannot serve God and a Church that does not line up with Him. I cannot serve two masters as I would love the one and hate the other. Therefore I cannot return to the Catholic Church.

In Him,
Janet

 

[Janet1983]

To Janet1983 - I will attempt to answer your list as requested by Craig who pointed out that it needs to be addressed

Cinette, here are some more of my answers… I tried to keep it shorter this time…

Abolition of the following:

1. Veneration of the saints, especially Mary
2. Praying to saints
   To quote the Catechism:
   “By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All-Holy One… May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.” Pg. 644, #2677
   “From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of `Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs…” Pg. 253, #971
   “The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives… They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” Pg. 645, #2683 (See also Pg. 249, #956)
   It is praying to the saints. We should not try to be like the Saints, but to be like Jesus Christ. It is Him whom we should honor, not the ones who act according to His Word (if they do). We should cast our burdens on the Lord (Psalm 55:22), call upon Him (Psalm 145:18 ) and make our requests known to Him (Philippians 4:6 ).
3. Current definition of “saint” as every member of the true church is a saint already and we are justified through Him… Paul talks to and about the members of the churches as saints.
   “By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors.” Pg. 219, #828
   There are no official saints or unofficial saints. We are all saints…
   Romans 1:7 - “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
   (See also Acts 9:13; 9:32; 9:41; 26:10; Romans 8:27; 12:13; 15:25; 15:26; 15:31; 16:2; 16:15; 1 Corinthians 6:1, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Ephesians 1:1, Ephesians 3:8, Ephesians 4:11-12, Jude 1:14, plus dozens of other New Testament references.)
   We are saints and we are sanctified in Jesus Christ.
   1 Corinthians 1:2a “Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints”
4. Transubstantiation…
   Well I do go there… Let’s see…
   John 6:53-54 - “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
   However f you read the entire passage in context, the meaning becomes clear. Right before making that statement, Jesus said the following in John 6:33-35 - “… For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”
   This teaching is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Eternal life comes through believing in Jesus Christ, not eating His body. The Lord goes on to further clarify in John 6:40 - “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life…”
   Again, Jesus points out that eternal life comes through believing in Him. When the Lord’s disciples murmured at His words, Jesus explained (John 6:63):
   “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
5. Adoration of the eucharist (blasphemy) instead of focusing on the Word of God
   It is good to hear that your husband is doing better now. This does not change however that the veneration of a mere object continues to be blasphemous.

(To be continued)

 

[Matariel]

Answer part 3 of 3

1. Not accepting other Christian churches are equally valid and right while declaring that somebody who was raised in a totally different religion can obtain salvation if he was truly seeking after God…

not found in the Old Testament. This fact alone should cause Protestants to wonder.

1. Not acknowledging that salvation is only by the pure grace of God

You were misinformed. The Catholic Church teaches salvation is given as a grace from God. Research before you attempt to attack something.

The Catholic Church teaches that one has to be a member to obtain salvation (see above) and she also teaches that one has to do good works to be saved:
“Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved.” Pg. 222, #837
These works include baptism (pg. 320, #1257), various sacraments (pg. 292, #1129) plus many additional works.

St. Peter said, “be ye baptised, everyone of you, for the remission of sins…”

The Church continued to believe that and it is a part of her creed. It was an article of faith of all Christians until the Protestants decided to create their own sects and leave the Church.

This is a complete misunderstanding which Protestants often have. God dispenses graces through the sacraments of His own accord. They are gifts from God.

Did you ever even go to Catechesis when Catholic or was it just taught to you wrong?

1. Not acknowledging the absolute inerrant Word of God as manifested in the Bible

Why would the Church have to interpret God’s Word for me then? It’s God’s Word and it is inerrant… Why shouldn’t I read it myself?

1. You should read it for yourself, through the eyes of apostolic understanding.
2. God knew that everyone interpreting the Scripture for themselves would leave to confusion, division, and schism (all condemned in the Bible) and look what happened: that’s EXACTLY what happened to Protestantism when it left the Church’s authority behind. The proof is all there for the world to see.

“The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.” Pg. 30, #100
The Church interprets things in their own form and fashion and declares some things to be literally right and others to be in need of interpretation. If the Bible is the inerrant Word of God it is true from cover to cover including the creation, Moses leading the people through the sea and Jesus walking on water.

So? I don’t see the disagreement here. The Catholic Church states the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

One account after the other was given to me as figurative when I was in religious education classes at school. How can the Word of God be inerrant if it is subjected to the interpretation of man?

Notice the line I emboldened. Can you say, Sola Scriptura?

You are right in one point: I would not return to the Catholic church. …In what direction does the Church lead me and in what direction does the Word of God lead me? …it wasn’t the same direction and so there is a problem.

So, basically, you put your own private interpretation against God’s Church’s interpretation (the Church which the Bible calls the “pillar and bulwark of truth” and which says “the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it”).

Sorry, I think your reasoning is misinformed and illogical. I’ve been a Protestant all my life, and now I’m coming Home to the Catholic Church this Easter at Easter Vigil. I can’t wait!

(P.S. I think you need to rethink your information you’ve been receiving. Some of it has been outright false. Maybe you should research it on your own. You should read the early Christian writings. Good luck. )

 

[Matariel]

Wow, Janet… it seems you were very poorly catechized, or were never catechized, as you seem to have a lot of misinformation about the Church-- which you seem to enjoy throwing under the bus? I hope not.

And as far as the Eucharist goes-- read what St. Paul says about “partaking of Christ’s body” etc. in Colossians and where Jesus says in the Gospel of John, “My Body is real food and My Blood is true Drink,” and "he who eats Me lives because of Me."

 

[tqualey]

*Hi, Janet1983,

This is really quite a list… And, actually, without splitting too fine a hair, there does apper to be some duplication.

What would you consider the most imporant item that you would like addressed?

God bless*

Abolition of the following:

1. Veneration of the saints, especially Mary
2. Praying to saints
   To quote the Catechism:
   “By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All-Holy One… May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.” Pg. 644, #2677
   “From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of `Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs…” Pg. 253, #971
   “The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives… They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” Pg. 645, #2683 (See also Pg. 249, #956)
   It is praying to the saints. We should not try to be like the Saints, but to be like Jesus Christ. It is Him whom we should honor, not the ones who act according to His Word (if they do). We should cast our burdens on the Lord (Psalm 55:22), call upon Him (Psalm 145:18 ) and make our requests known to Him (Philippians 4:6 ).
3. Current definition of “saint” as every member of the true church is a saint already and we are justified through Him… Paul talks to and about the members of the churches as saints.
   “By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors.” Pg. 219, #828
   There are no official saints or unofficial saints. We are all saints…
   Romans 1:7 - “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
   (See also Acts 9:13; 9:32; 9:41; 26:10; Romans 8:27; 12:13; 15:25; 15:26; 15:31; 16:2; 16:15; 1 Corinthians 6:1, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Ephesians 1:1, Ephesians 3:8, Ephesians 4:11-12, Jude 1:14, plus dozens of other New Testament references.)
   We are saints and we are sanctified in Jesus Christ.
   1 Corinthians 1:2a “Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints”
4. Transubstantiation…
   Well I do go there… Let’s see…
   John 6:53-54 - “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
   However f you read the entire passage in context, the meaning becomes clear. Right before making that statement, Jesus said the following in John 6:33-35 - “… For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”
   This teaching is consistent with the rest of Scripture. Eternal life comes through believing in Jesus Christ, not eating His body. The Lord goes on to further clarify in John 6:40 - “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life…”
   Again, Jesus points out that eternal life comes through believing in Him. When the Lord’s disciples murmured at His words, Jesus explained (John 6:63):
   “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
5. Adoration of the eucharist (blasphemy) instead of focusing on the Word of God
   It is good to hear that your husband is doing better now. This does not change however that the veneration of a mere object continues to be blasphemous.

(To be continued)

 

[Matariel]

Wow, Janet… it seems you were very poorly catechized, or were never catechized, as you seem to have a lot of misinformation about the Church-- which you seem to enjoy throwing under the bus? I hope not.

And as far as the Eucharist goes-- read what St. Paul says about “partaking of Christ’s body” etc. in Colossians and where Jesus says in the Gospel of John, “My Body is real food and My Blood is true Drink,” and "he who eats Me lives because of Me."

Not to mention the statements of the early persecuted Christians who believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

I don’t know Janet, but the evidence is pretty one-sided, and it isn’t in favour of Protestantism (in any of its forms).

 

[Cinette]

Hi, Cinette,

I think Ginger is showing good judgment… she has expressed herself and had several instructional responses.

Best wishes,

Tom

Ginger? Ginger?

 

[Cinette]

Because I have quite a few things on my plate apart from being here (well you see that when you look at how long I’m here and hopw many posts have come from me in the rather long period of time).
I just found your messages and try to find your answer…

Hi Janet! Delighted you have responded.

The thread has grown since you were last here so I can understand your confusion in regard to my response.

Go to page 30 and you will find it in posts #443, 445 and 116.

Cinette

 

[Cinette]

For me, The Roman Pontiffs would have to stop praying in mosques and kissing blasphemous books for me to ever join the Novus Ordo church. Canon law was clear down through the ages that one was not to participate in non-catholic ceremonies. I know these laws have been changed…they would have to be because that would make John Paul II and Benedict XVI both extreme heretics.

I wonder what Jesus would think about going into the temple of Baal and taking your shoes off and praying toward their towers.

I would believe that 100% of the popes down through ages save John XXIII thru present would have all condemned entering a mosque and praying with heretics or kissing the schismatics.

I came across this post and have not looked at any responses.

As a revert to the Church and one who is eagerly learning I would venture to say that I believe that Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God. We all have a different understanding of what and who God is but we all recognize One God. Therefore I believe that we need to manifest respect for these other religions. Although we call God by different names we acknowledge that there is only one God. I believe we all pray to the same God.

When the Pope visited the mosque I believe he displayed respect in his manifestations. I have asked Muslims to pray for me and I have prayed for them. I do not agree with their interpretations of religion but I respect them. I feel the same about Jews.

I believe that Jesus would be pleased to see his His appointed Shepherd here on earth reach out to all people.

The Holy Father understands them better than I and I respect and trust him.

Cinette

 

[Cinette]

Janet - so glad you found the answers and you have responded.

It is early in the morning here and I have to bath and begin my day and I have a workshop to go to but will take a look tonight. When I am back you will be sleeping!

Check with you later
Cinette