What truths must you hold to be considered a Protestant?

[Dancelittleewok]

I’ll try, Dance. A Synod, within Lutheranism (other denominations may or may not define a Synod differently), is a jurisdictional body that oversees a federation of individual churches that all agree not only with the Lutheran Confessions, but with Synodical documents, resolutions, etc. Initially, Synods in America were regional bodies. When Germans and Scandinavians began to immigrate here in the late 19th century, they settled in different regions. The Lutherans in those regions then formed Synods that had oversight within that area. A large number of Germans settled in Wisconsin, and the upper midwest and formed what is today the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. Germans also settled in the Missouri region and formed the Missouri Synod. Scandinavians settled in the upper midwest and Great Plains and formed the Evangelical Lutheran Synod, etc.

Since that time, other issues have arisen within American Lutheranism than have either separated the Synods from fellowship with each other. They are not different denominations per se…like the difference between Baptists and Presbyterians. But rather, theological differences within one overall denomination (Lutheranism).

What are some synod theological differences? Are these differences dependent on each Synodical document? Is the synodical document like a statement of faith or goals?

 

[TriuneUnity]

What are some synod theological differences? Are these differences dependent on each Synodical document? Is the synodical document like a statement of faith or goals?

Well. You have the ELCA… which, honestly, and I don’t mean any offense to ELCA Lutherans who visit these boards, I would not consider the ELCA a functional Lutheran Synod. There are many ELCA parishes which are still faithful, but the overall Synod has abandoned not only the Lutheran Confessions, but the creeds as well. Needless to say, they are growing more and more liberal as time goes by.

With Missouri and Wisconsin, the two biggest conservative Synods… The Missouri Synod believes that fellowship cannot exist between two church bodies that disagree with each other. However, they only extend this fellowship to holy communion and sharing pulpits. Wisconsin also extends this fellowship restriction to prayer. So, a WELS Lutheran will not publicly pray with, say, a Presbyterian. Also, the WELS does not allow female members of the congregation to vote on church issues. Missouri does. Basically, the WELS is more conservative. The Evangelical Lutheran Synod is in fellowship with the WELS and shares the same view. The LCMS, the WELS, and the ELS were in fellowship with each other until 1959 in what was known as the Synodical Conference.

The basic statement of faith between Synods is always the Lutheran Confessions. The various resolutions and other agreements are mostly administrative.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

From where do you take it that an ELCA Lutheran may commune at an LCMS church? I have never met an LCMS pastor that would permit it.

Actually, I provided the link a few posts earlier, but I’ll provide the link again:

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=422

Q. Being raised in the LCMS, I was surprised today when I was visiting a LCMS church that had a pamphlet explaining their beliefs about communion. It went on to say that if the visitor believed these things also then they could commune at that church. I thought that only LCMS members could commune at LCMS churches. Has this changed?
A. The Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod has never understood or applied the historic practice of close[d] Communion in such a way as to mean that only LCMS members are permitted to commune at LCMS altars. The official position of the Synod is that not only are members of other Lutheran churches with whom we are in altar and pulpit fellowship invited to commune with us, but also that in certain extraordinary cases of pastoral care and in emergencies members of churches not in fellowship with us may be given Communion. The Synod stated, for example, in 1986 “that pastors and congregations of The Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod continue to abide by the practice of close communion, which includes the necessity of exercising responsible pastoral care in extraordinary situations and circumstances” (1986 Res. 3-08 “To Maintain Practice of Close Communion”).

Further evidence is provided from a Lutheran poster here who commented on my post and attends an LCMS church:

JonNC:

My LCMS congregation has a communion statement, which states, in effect, that we confess that the supper is the true body and blood of Christ, not a mere symbol or a simple remembrance. If you believe the same, you are welcome to commune. It also includes the 1 Corinthians 11:27-29 warning about not discerning His presence, and an offer to council with the pastor or elder prior to. When I first moved here, we were ELCA, and were permitted to receive.

I will admit that the LCMS statement I linked above allows exceptions in extraordinary circumstances. I’m not aware of extraordinary exceptions that would be permitted in a WELS church.

 

[Nominefili]

Protestants, what truths must you hold to be considered one of you? Can you believe in the Immaculate Conception and still be a Protestant? All of the 5 solas? Be confessional and hold to the Augsburg Confession as well or is that non-essential?

I ask this because Catholics are sometimes told that they have less freedom of thought in comparison to the Protestant churches. I’m curious about the intellectual freedom in the Protestant realm, if there’s some overarching dogma/doctrine that unites everybody together. I ask this question out of curiosity so that I can see the world better from your point of view.

Thank you in advance.

Well, first of all, many Lutherans would be offended by being called Protestants, but that’s a whole other thing.

To be a member of the LCMS, you are to have a quia subscription to the Confessional documents, as contained in the Book of Concord (Unaltered Augsburg Confession, Small/Large catechisms, Smalcald Articles, etc.) Quia meaning subscribing to these documents because they rightly explain the word of God, as opposed to the quatenus subscription that other Lutheran bodies, such as the ELCA, have; which means ‘insofar as’ it agrees with scripture. The problem with a quatenus subscription is simply that it doesn’t mean anything (I can agree with the Koran insofar as it agrees with scripture).

Hope that helps.

 

[Nominefili]

1. rejection of the papacy

No problems there.

1. rejection of the visible church, supplanting it with an invisible entity

No, we confess both the visible church (the congregation) and the invisible church (the elect and/or the baptized, depending on your church body.

1. rejection of all Marian doctrines

Do we believe that she is the queen of heaven and the coredemptrix? No. Do we believe that she is the most honored of women, and that she, as a virgin, gave birth to the savior of the world? Absolutely.

1. rejection of important sacraments, such as Reconciliation and the Eucharist.

Wrong and wrong. Lutheran churches believe in both corporate and private confession as a function of the Office of the Keys (priesthood) and confess the true body and blood of Christ in the sacrament for the forgiveness of sins.

1. rejection of the Mass as a true sacrifice, the priest as priest who makes the sacrifice, and the altar as where the sacrifice occurs.

Agreed. There was only one sacrifice, that of our dear Lord Jesus Christ on the cross for our salvation. One cosmic event, not an ongoing sacrifice.

1. rejection of all devotions, particularly the Rosary

Wrong. I have prayed the Rosary before. There’s nothing stopping us from it, we just don’t believe that it merits grace for us.

1. rejection of key dogmas, such as Purgatory

Not sure that Purgatory is a ‘key dogma’, even for the Roman church; but even so, the Lutheran church has never flatly rejected it. There are Lutherans (including Luther) who believe in purgatory. We simply don’t believe that there is enough scriptural evidence for it to bind consciences to it. (i.e. we don’t confess that a disbelief in purgatory puts you outside the church.) Disbelief in purgatory is not the same as disbelief in the Triune God or disbelief in the Resurrection.

1. rejection of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church formed by Christ and His apostles.

We believe that the One Church is the total of those who are baptized; those who believe with their hearts and confess with their mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord.

1. acceptance, for the most part, of divorce, birth control, recreational sex, and, to a greater or lesser degree, abortion.

I don’t even feel that this deserves a response, but for the record, Lutherans confess that divorce, recreational sex between the unmarried, and abortion are all sins (sins for which Christ died.) Birth control is tricky, but I know many Lutherans who reject its use.

1. Acceptance, for the most part, of practicing homosexuality.

Never. Once again, I don’t know whether you were just trying to get a list of 10 things, but try reading some so-called ‘Protestant’ web sites and their social statements. Very, very few ‘accept’ practicing homosexuality.

These seem to be the “Top Ten”. Of course, there are more.

Yes, yes there are.

 

[Lutheranteach]

1. rejection of the papacy yes, in a way. I would say rejection of the papacy as anything other than a man made office and a utter rejection of papal infallability
2. rejection of the visible church, supplanting it with an invisible entitymixed views
3. rejection of all Marian doctrines I’m not sure, because I don’t know how far one wants to take this
4. rejection of important sacraments, such as Reconciliation and the Eucharist. Rejection of all sacraments other than baptism and communion…this mostly a matter of definition
5. rejection of the Mass as a true sacrifice, the priest as priest who makes the sacrifice, and the altar as where the sacrifice occurs. Agree
6. rejection of all devotions, particularly the Rosary Not sure how far one wants to take take this, but on its face I agree
7. rejection of key dogmas, such as Purgatory of most dogmas, yes
8. rejection of the fact that the Catholic Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church formed by Christ and His apostles. Agree…I would fight tooth and nail anyone who said it was not a part of the one true church, but disagree it is THE one one true church
9. acceptance, for the most part, of divorce, birth control, recreational sex, and, to a greater or lesser degree, abortion. Yes and no. I think understanding and tolerance would be better words than acceptance and that tolerance includes the acknowledgement of disagreements on those issues.
10. Acceptance, for the most part, of practicing homosexuality. That’s an issue where opinions vary. I would change this to a tolerance of homosexuals in and those responsibly seeking, long term committed realtionships

These seem to be the “Top Ten”. Of course, there are more.

 

[Hereswith]

What I’ve learned so far (and please correct me if I misunderstood):

1. Chinese is something all denominations can agree upon!
2. Some denominations believe themselves to have the fullness faith and possibly view other denominations as heresy.
3. The correct interpretations of Scripture are expressed in the reformer’s confessions or books but not all denominations have this.
4. Protestants are united in alien righteousness, Christ’s atonement, imputed justification, faith alone, etc, but not all Protestants agree on the details.

If what I’ve correctly understood you then I could conclude:

1. There is such a varied spectrum within Protestantism–you cannot give a broad brush to the movement, although there’s some unity in their focus.
   2)Due to this variation, I wonder if Protestantism is an obsolete term. While Protestants are united in focus, I wonder if each Protestant denomination is a faith tradition in itself.

What are your thoughts?

Just a small correction: Protestants are not in fact in agreement on “faith alone”. The Protestant denomination I was raised in believed in works and faith, like Catholics. (I was raised Congregationalist.) I think the faith alone thing is more in keeping with conservative denominations.

Also wanted to comment on the term Protestant being obsolete. Good point - I think in this day and age it has come to mean in a the broad sense any church that follows Christ that is not Catholic. After all, even Mormons are considered Protestant, as are Jehovah’s Witnesses, and their beliefs are pretty, uh, out there. Even the Amish are considered Amish, and the only thing they have in common with evangelicals or Mormons in that they are not Catholic!

 

[blazerdave]

To be a Protestant is to abhor the Seven Deadly Sins:

1. smoking
2. drinking
3. dancing
4. card-playing
5. movie-going
6. baptizing babies
7. having any creed but Jesus

 

[JonNC]

To be a Protestant is to abhor the Seven Deadly Sins:

1. smoking
2. drinking
3. dancing
4. card-playing
5. movie-going
6. baptizing babies
7. having any creed but Jesus

“abhor” does not necessarily exclude participation.
Jon

 

[Nominefili]

“abhor” does not necessarily exclude participation.
Jon

Sin boldly Jon!

 

[blazerdave]

“abhor” does not necessarily exclude participation.
Jon

Of course not! The Good Work of Free Will that is required is a Public Profession of Abhorrence. Once abhorrent, always abhorrent. No amount of participation can affect one’s eternal abhorrence!

 

[Nominefili]

Of course not! The Good Work of Free Will that is required is a Public Profession of Abhorrence. Once abhorrent, always abhorrent. No amount of participation can affect one’s eternal abhorrence!

Sounds important. Let’s call it a sacrament. xD

 

[TriuneUnity]

Actually, I provided the link a few posts earlier, but I’ll provide the link again:

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=422

Further evidence is provided from a Lutheran poster here who commented on my post and attends an LCMS church:

I will admit that the LCMS statement I linked above allows exceptions in extraordinary circumstances. I’m not aware of extraordinary exceptions that would be permitted in a WELS church.

Extraordinary circumstances do not establish the rule. Yes, LCMS pastors will commune non-LCMS members. However, that is going to be after serious conversations regarding what that person believe. I’m not aware of Jon’s circumstances when he was in the ELCA, but he may have rejected the ELCA’s teachings vis a vie liberalism. I can tell you that every LCMS pastor I’ve known would commune a Catholic before they would commune a practicing ELCA member.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Sounds important. Let’s call it a sacrament. xD

“…on the night he was betrayed took a decision card, grabbed a pen, gave it to his disciples and said 'take and write, this is your sinner’s prayer, do it only once in remembrance of your free will decision to be born again, you’ll never have to do it more than this…”

 

[Lutheranteach]

Well. You have the ELCA… which, honestly, and I don’t mean any offense to ELCA Lutherans who visit these boards, I would not consider the ELCA a functional Lutheran Synod. There are many ELCA parishes which are still faithful, but the overall Synod has abandoned not only the Lutheran Confessions, but the creeds as well. Needless to say, they are growing more and more liberal as time goes by.

— I would not entirely agree with that. I would say the ELCA has the widest spectrum of political and social views, but I’ve never attended an ELCA church where I felt the Lutheran Confessions had been abandoned, and without offense intended, I think the ELCA position on some sensitive issues is very oversimplified by many.

 

[blazerdave]

“…on the night he was betrayed took a decision card, grabbed a pen, gave it to his disciples and said 'take and write, this is your sinner’s prayer, do it only once in remembrance of your free will decision to be born again, you’ll never have to do it more than this…”

LOL

 

[Nominefili]

Extraordinary circumstances do not establish the rule. Yes, LCMS pastors will commune non-LCMS members. However, that is going to be after serious conversations regarding what that person believe. I’m not aware of Jon’s circumstances when he was in the ELCA, but he may have rejected the ELCA’s teachings vis a vie liberalism. I can tell you that every LCMS pastor I’ve known would commune a Catholic before they would commune a practicing ELCA member.

To further expand on TriuneUnity’s explanation, it would be important to note that the only people any LCMS pastor should commune without incident are those of the LCMS and her sister churches. That said, most LCMS pastors would no problem communing someone who is WELS either, as we never actually cut off communion with them (it was the other way around.)

In any circumstance, the pastor should personally examine anyone he doesn’t know (visitors, newcomers, etc.) who wish to receive the Sacrament beforehand. It is ultimately on the pastor’s conscience if he communes someone who should not be communing.

1 Cor. 11:27-32

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

 

[TriuneUnity]

— I would not entirely agree with that. I would say the ELCA has the widest spectrum of political and social views, but I’ve never attended an ELCA church where I felt the Lutheran Confessions had been abandoned, and without offense intended, I think the ELCA position on some sensitive issues is very oversimplified by many.

It’s oversimplified in the sense that many make the assumption that every individual ELCA parish is de facto on the far left end of the spectrum. However, my reference is mainly to synodical leadership. The recent decisions that have been made have only solidified their drifting from the faith and the creeds of the church. As for the Lutheran Confessions, it can only be pointed to the ELCA’s fellowship with those churches that reject Confessional teaching on the Lord’s Supper (such as the PCUSA). I won’t even open the quia/quaetenus box.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Extraordinary circumstances do not establish the rule. Yes, LCMS pastors will commune non-LCMS members. However, that is going to be after serious conversations regarding what that person believe. I’m not aware of Jon’s circumstances when he was in the ELCA, but he may have rejected the ELCA’s teachings vis a vie liberalism. I can tell you that every LCMS pastor I’ve known would commune a Catholic before they would commune a practicing ELCA member.

I take communion at an LCMS church at least six times a year and the pastor there knows me well and knows full well I’m an ELCA Lutheran. He must find enough of my thoughts acceptable to give the OK to.

 

[JonNC]

Extraordinary circumstances do not establish the rule. Yes, LCMS pastors will commune non-LCMS members. However, that is going to be after serious conversations regarding what that person believe. I’m not aware of Jon’s circumstances when he was in the ELCA, but he may have rejected the ELCA’s teachings vis a vie liberalism. I can tell you that every LCMS pastor I’ve known would commune a Catholic before they would commune a practicing ELCA member.

Understatement! The pastor became quite quickly aware of my atherence to the confessions. The unusual circumstance was no ELCA congregation in the area.

Originally Posted by Lutheranteach

— I would not entirely agree with that. I would say the ELCA has the widest spectrum of political and social views, but I’ve never attended an ELCA church where I felt the Lutheran Confessions had been abandoned, and without offense intended, I think the ELCA position on some sensitive issues is very oversimplified by many.

On this point, my dad, an LCA/ELCA pastor, was well known for his conservative positions, not only confessionally, but politically. He even authored an op-ed in “The Lutheran” discussing a conservative Church with a liberal leadership (30 years ago!). It was remarkable even then that it got published. Chicago is Chicago, but I have found that many if not most Lutherans in the ELCA are Lutherans.

On the point of this thread, the biggest issue for all Lutherans in America, however, is not politics (though that is a big one), but the unfortunate influence of reformed and American evangelicalism, which I think has diluted Lutheranism, to one degree or another, in all synods.

Jon