What truths must you hold to be considered a Protestant?

[Dancelittleewok]

Protestants, what truths must you hold to be considered one of you? Can you believe in the Immaculate Conception and still be a Protestant? All of the 5 solas? Be confessional and hold to the Augsburg Confession as well or is that non-essential?

I ask this because Catholics are sometimes told that they have less freedom of thought in comparison to the Protestant churches. I’m curious about the intellectual freedom in the Protestant realm, if there’s some overarching dogma/doctrine that unites everybody together. I ask this question out of curiosity so that I can see the world better from your point of view.

Thank you in advance.

 

[blazerdave]

Very tough question, but I’ll take a shot at it

During the Reformation itself, probably the overarching attitude of the Protestants was one of total reliance upon Divine grace. Man’s righteousness was as filthy rags before the Lord, so even our best works of charity were ultimately gracious gifts from God worked through us (rather than our working for/towards him). Preaching of the Word and reception of the Sacraments were thus seen as means through which God extended grace for justification of the lost and sanctification of the faithful. Effort and striving in one’s faith were deemphasized in favor of desiring God’s good gifts for us.

However, though there are still vestiges of this way of thinking (and some whole denominations which are still faithful to these principles), there seems to be little in the way of unifying Protestant principles any more. There’s even debate over which churches are and are not Protestant. I live in Baptist country, and many of them do not see themselves as Protestant, applying that label strictly to the churches of the Reformation. Others obviously disagree. Each Protestant/Non-Catholic body has its own Confessional statements, and these all contain substantial differences that have only grown over time.

But to answer your question in a word (or three): Gospel and Grace.

 

[blazerdave]

But yes, we can believe in the Immaculate Conception - a lot of my Anglo-Catholics do! Dordt’s 5 Solas and Augsburg will certainly vary. Their followers wouldn’t say that they are necessary for “Protestantness,” but some would believe that they are required for right believe and practice. Some, especially in the past (and Lutherans today) would also close Communion to those who did not subscribe to the proper Confessional statement. But there was always recognition that these statements grew from Protestantism as clarification, rather than completely encompassing or defining what it means to be Protestant.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Protestants, what truths must you hold to be considered one of you? Can you believe in the Immaculate Conception and still be a Protestant? All of the 5 solas? Be confessional and hold to the Augsburg Confession as well or is that non-essential?

I ask this because Catholics are sometimes told that they have less freedom of thought in comparison to the Protestant churches. I’m curious about the intellectual freedom in the Protestant realm, if there’s some overarching dogma/doctrine that unites everybody together. I ask this question out of curiosity so that I can see the world better from your point of view.

Thank you in advance.

Good question… and probably a really big list

To be considered a confessional Lutheran, you would be required to confess that everything taught in the Lutheran Book of Concord is true to the teachings of Scripture and the apostles. This does give leeway to hold to traditions that are not explicitly contradicted by Scripture. The perpetual virginity and the assumption are two Marian doctrines that would not contradict the Lutheran symbols or the Bible. I would say that the Immaculate Conception does.

I would have to let other Protestant traditions answer for themselves. I would assume they use a similar criteria, although the Reformed tradition has less leeway because they would say you should not believe anything that is affirmed by Scripture.

 

[JRKH]

Can’t help but be a smart A** here.
The main truth that you must hold to be considered a protestant is that
The Catholic Church is wrong.

I know I’ll catch flak for the above even though it is said (mostly) in jest.

Peace
James

 

[Lutheranteach]

Can’t help but be a smart A** here.
The main truth that you must hold to be considered a protestant is that
The Catholic Church is wrong.

I know I’ll catch flak for the above even though it is said (mostly) in jest.

Peace
James

Maybe more importantly, or more accurately, you have to believe the Catholic Church can be wrong.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I would say the main thing I see as important in being a Protestant would be the idea of alien righteousness, imputation of grace rather than infusion of grace, justification before sanctification, and the sola scriptura agenda…and yes, a rejection of the Catholic Church…other things like sacraments, predestination, the Eucharist, confession, church polity, and worship styles, grace, etc. are incidentals compared to the forementioned biggies.

 

[DorianGregorian]

I would say Justification by Faith alone and Scripture alone are the two biggies. Luckilly there has been dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Protestant Churches on this issue.

 

[thirdn6]

Maybe more importantly, or more accurately, you have to believe the Catholic Church can be wrong.

And if you believe that the Catholic Church can be wrong… you’re done. You’ve been deceived. You are ripe to becoming another protestant!

 

[JRKH]

Maybe more importantly, or more accurately, you have to believe the Catholic Church can be wrong.

Nice -
Of course that brings us to the next level. Protestants must also believe (know with surety) that Protestants can be wrong.
Otherwise why would there be so many different ones.

Peace
James

 

[blazerdave]

Ugh. Indeed. Reformation split over Eucharistic theology, and what’s the usual denomination number now? 30,000? Even if it’s 3,000, that’s too many. Difference in belief was never meant to be “every man doing as he sees fit” like in pre-Saul Israel. Sounds pretty fake to pray that God would guide us in all truth and then think that nobody in Catholicism or Protestantism actually has the real, full truth!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

An important observation, Dave. I find it one major factor in my remaining Catholic even in times of struggle (which are frequent lol). Christ calls us to unity in Scripture and the many diverse notions we hear among Protestants are not incidentals or small potatoes but big ideas about salvation, sacraments, eschatology, etc. Moral relativism troubles me and that’s why I chose the Pope’s statement as a signature. I agree with him that we all end up in little prison cells of our own opinions, prejudices, points of view, and philosophies that keeps us in disharmony and with no hard, tangiable, real truth. Pontius Pilate boldly asked Our Lord, “what is truth?” He couldn’t find it. Apparently neither can the 30,000 (or whatever it is) ecclesiastical groups groping in the dark for it in 2010…

Ugh. Indeed. Reformation split over Eucharistic theology, and what’s the usual denomination number now? 30,000? Even if it’s 3,000, that’s too many. Difference in belief was never meant to be “every man doing as he sees fit” like in pre-Saul Israel. Sounds pretty fake to pray that God would guide us in all truth and then think that nobody in Catholicism or Protestantism actually has the real, full truth!

 

[Dancelittleewok]

TriuneUnity:

I would have to let other Protestant traditions answer for themselves. I would assume they use a similar criteria, although the Reformed tradition has less leeway because they would say you should not believe anything that is affirmed by Scripture.

Do you mind describing this leeway within Protestantism? I have more questions but I’d like to understand it more.

gurneyhalleck1:

I would say the main thing I see as important in being a Protestant would be the idea of alien righteousness, imputation of grace rather than infusion of grace, justification before sanctification, and the sola scriptura agenda…and yes, a rejection of the Catholic Church…other things like sacraments, predestination, the Eucharist, confession, church polity, and worship styles, grace, etc. are incidentals compared to the forementioned biggies.

If all these doctrines unite the Protestant then why are the original Reformers sometimes divided about how these doctrines come about (i.e. Lutherans and Reformed differ when regeneration occurs)? Or does that not matter?
blazerdrave:

Very tough question, but I’ll take a shot at it

During the Reformation itself, probably the overarching attitude of the Protestants was one of total reliance upon Divine grace. Man’s righteousness was as filthy rags before the Lord, so even our best works of charity were ultimately gracious gifts from God worked through us (rather than our working for/towards him). Preaching of the Word and reception of the Sacraments were thus seen as means through which God extended grace for justification of the lost and sanctification of the faithful. Effort and striving in one’s faith were deemphasized in favor of desiring God’s good gifts for us.

However, though there are still vestiges of this way of thinking (and some whole denominations which are still faithful to these principles), there seems to be little in the way of unifying Protestant principles any more. There’s even debate over which churches are and are not Protestant. I live in Baptist country, and many of them do not see themselves as Protestant, applying that label strictly to the churches of the Reformation. Others obviously disagree. Each Protestant/Non-Catholic body has its own Confessional statements, and these all contain substantial differences that have only grown over time.

But to answer your question in a word (or three): Gospel and Grace.

I’d argue that Catholics do believe in grace and the gospel as well so gospel and grace aren’t distinguishing characteristics for Protestants. I’m beginning to think what separates Protestants and Catholics is how each group sees man since we are generally united that Jesus is both God and man, did what no mere man could do, and saved us all but how man comes to that sacrificial gift and acts upon it is different .

But yes, we can believe in the Immaculate Conception - a lot of my Anglo-Catholics do! Dordt’s 5 Solas and Augsburg will certainly vary. Their followers wouldn’t say that they are necessary for “Protestantness,” but some would believe that they are required for right believe and practice. Some, especially in the past (and Lutherans today) would also close Communion to those who did not subscribe to the proper Confessional statement. But there was always recognition that these statements grew from Protestantism as clarification, rather than completely encompassing or defining what it means to be Protestant.

Perhaps the difference is what is required? Do you mind expounding on your last statement? You’re the first Anglo-Catholic I’ve dialogued with it so I’m not familiar with your beliefs, but I have a vague understanding about Anglicans…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I never said they were in perfect agreement as to how these doctrines are hammered-out. Obviously Calvinists, Lutherans, Methodists, and Anglicans have marked differences in the development of said ideas. I’m simply saying that imputation, sola scriptura, faith alone, etc. are hallmarks of all with the details and incidentals differing…United in principals, differing in details and final theology

If all these doctrines unite the Protestant then why are the original Reformers sometimes divided about how these doctrines come about (i.e. Lutherans and Reformed differ when regeneration occurs)? Or does that not matter?

 

[AmateurPianist]

Two issues;
(1) The word Protestant is simply a classification term to identify organizations that are not classified as Catholic, Orthodox (or restorationalist).
(2) As such there is no statement of faith that you must adhere to in order to be Protestant.

I can’t think of one tenet of faith that you must hold to be considered Protestant that is unique from Catholic or Orthodox.

For all of the items put forth in this thread, either
(1) Not unique to Protestant:

Maybe more importantly, or more accurately, you have to believe the Catholic Church can be wrong.

The main truth that you must hold to be considered a protestant is that
The Catholic Church is wrong.

…and I don’t think even these two items necessarily would disqualify you from being a Protestant (at least some branches). Just that it makes no sense.

(2) There are organizations that are considered Protestant that disagree

I would say Justification by Faith alone and Scripture alone are the two biggies.

I would say the main thing I see as important in being a Protestant would be the idea of alien righteousness, imputation of grace rather than infusion of grace, justification before sanctification, and the sola scriptura agenda…and yes, a rejection of the Catholic Church…other things like sacraments, predestination, the Eucharist, confession, church polity, and worship styles, grace, etc. are incidentals compared to the forementioned biggies.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Do you mind describing this leeway within Protestantism? I have more questions but I’d like to understand it more.

Sure. It largely comes down to the presupposition that is used. For Lutherans, whatever does not contradict the Scriptures or the confessions is within the conscience of the individual believer to either accept or reject. For example, I lean toward the idea of Mary’s perpetual virginity. Since this is neither affirmed or denied by the Lutheran confessions and does not explicitly contradict Scripture, I am free to believe that she remained a virgin and still be a member in good standing of a Lutheran congregation.

For Reformed denominations, they operate by a reverse standard. Whatever is not affirmed by Scripture or the Reformed confessions is NOT okay to believe in. A Reformed Christian could not hold to Mary’s perpetual virginity since it is not affirmed explicitly by Scripture or the Reformed confessions.

If all these doctrines unite the Protestant then why are the original Reformers sometimes divided about how these doctrines come about (i.e. Lutherans and Reformed differ when regeneration occurs)? Or does that not matter?

I think gurney’s observation is correct. While Lutherans and Reformed may disagree as to how God justifies the sinner (for the Reformed it is by “conversion,” for Lutherans by baptism), we both agree that justification is through faith alone and involves Christ’s righteousness imputed to the sinner and the sins of the believer imputed to Christ.

As far as sola Scriptura goes, while most Protestants adhere to it, it is not a doctrine, but a practice. I would say it’s less central to being Protestant, since many groups labeled Protestant don’t quite hold to it. Many Pentecostals, for example, believe in direct revelation from the Spirit through sign gifts, like tongues. This would deny sola Scriptura.

 

[TriuneUnity]

An important observation, Dave. I find it one major factor in my remaining Catholic even in times of struggle (which are frequent lol). Christ calls us to unity in Scripture and the many diverse notions we hear among Protestants are not incidentals or small potatoes but big ideas about salvation, sacraments, eschatology, etc. Moral relativism troubles me and that’s why I chose the Pope’s statement as a signature. I agree with him that we all end up in little prison cells of our own opinions, prejudices, points of view, and philosophies that keeps us in disharmony and with no hard, tangiable, real truth. Pontius Pilate boldly asked Our Lord, “what is truth?” He couldn’t find it. Apparently neither can the 30,000 (or whatever it is) ecclesiastical groups groping in the dark for it in 2010…

While I share your concerns here, gurney and understand where you are coming from, it’s only an assumption that the different Protestant groups do not believe there is one truth that is revealed by Scripture. Many Protestants, myself included, do not believe there are several thousands truths that are revealed in Scripture and see those other sects being just as wrong as the Catholic Church sees them. Since I believe that the Lutheran confessions are the true interpretation of Scripture, it would necessitate that I don’t believe the Reformed, Anglican, Methodist, Baptist et al. interpretations of Scripture are correct.

 

[blazerdave]

I’d argue that Catholics do believe in grace and the gospel as well so gospel and grace aren’t distinguishing characteristics for Protestants. I’m beginning to think what separates Protestants and Catholics is how each group sees man since we are generally united that Jesus is both God and man, did what no mere man could do, and saved us all but how man comes to that sacrificial gift and acts upon it is different .

Perhaps the difference is what is required? Do you mind expounding on your last statement? You’re the first Anglo-Catholic I’ve dialogued with it so I’m not familiar with your beliefs, but I have a vague understanding about Anglicans…

Great questions! Forgive me if I wasn’t clear before. By no means would I say that the Catholic Church lacked either Grace and Gospel or an emphasis on Grace and Gospel! All I meant was the the Reformers were united in saying that these were areas in which, in their opinion, the medieval Church needed improvement (or clarity). It didn’t take long for them to divide over what that improvement should look like. And the lack of overall authority led to some pretty divergent paths and some strange positions. Still, though, the battle cry of Grace could be seen as a unifying current even today. In many circles, the meaning of Grace and the reasons for emphasizing it have been forgotten. People just know it’s “what they talk about” as Protestants. So these are areas in which Protestants are united in focus, if not in theology. But you have them too!

As for my last statement, I just meant that from a Catholic point of view, church documents and doctrinal pronouncements are of the highest importance. For the Protestants, they are not quite that high. Not quite. So my Lutheran and Calvinist friends will argue the Book of Concord vs the Westminster Confession for hours on end , but each document is seen as a summary and clarification of their theology and practice, not the final Protestant word on the matter. The Reformers didn’t want different flavors of Protestants; it just worked out that way. And each document, while sufficient to limit church membership and close Communion, is not seen as eternally infallible or perfect. As for me, Anglo-Catholic just means I’m one of those Anglicans whose doctrine and practice is not too far removed from yours . We like our vestments and processionals and need our weekly Eucharist. I don’t wanna derail the thread, but I’d be happy to PM if you have any questions!

 

[blazerdave]

Slight correction in light of what TriuneUnity just said: some Protestants definitely see their documents as being very right (as opposed to containing “opinions” or “a piece of the truth”). Confessional Lutherans are in that category, and I do not wish to misrepresent them. But things are different for non-Lutherans in postmodern America (with the tragic church-hopping phenomenon) than they were in 16th- and 17th- century Europe. Like I said earlier, Dancelittleewok, it’s not an easy question that you have asked!

 

[JonNC]

Two issues;
(1) The word Protestant is simply a classification term to identify organizations that are not classified as Catholic, Orthodox (or restorationalist).
(2) As such there is no statement of faith that you must adhere to in order to be Protestant.

Great answer!

I never said they were in perfect agreement as to how these doctrines are hammered-out. Obviously Calvinists, Lutherans, Methodists, and Anglicans have marked differences in the development of said ideas. I’m simply saying that imputation, sola scriptura, faith alone, etc. are hallmarks of all with the details and incidentals differing…United in principals, differing in details and final theology

Scott,
I thought that Anglicans were less tied to the practice of sola scriptura than say Lutherans?

Jon