What wage is just?

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Okay, we agree on what is an agreeable wage. We agree that it is required for a wage to be just. But, and this is supremely important:
o_mlly said:
Whatever is agreeable to the employer and employee is just.
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This statement is contradictory to Catholic teaching. I understand at this point that you believe it to be a true statement, but you must admit you are not following the teaching of the Church in promoting it as true.

From the Compendium of Social Doctrine of the Catholic Church, paragraph 302:
The simple agreement between employee and employer with regard to the amount of pay to be received is not sufficient for the agreed-upon salary to qualify as a “just wage”, because a just wage “must not be below the level of subsistence”[662] of the worker: natural justice precedes and is above the freedom of the contract.
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Anrakyr said:
Then get a robot to do it. My time is worth money.
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Such attitude is illustrative of a larger problem. If you wish to make automation cheaper then employing workers, you will have plenty of free time to contemplate your error.
 
There are so many people on this form who seem to want to justify unjust wages for people.
Minimum wage is the bottom of the wage scale.
But working a 40-hour week at the minimum should be enough money to insure that worker the ability to purchase food and shelter. No frills, but the minimum to sustain life.
After that, the wage scale can be gaged to those who have more skills or who are prepared to worker longer hours in an effort to make more money.
 
Anrakyr said:
In order to work in this market you have to have a college education leaving many of us in crippling debt. My rent right now is lower then my loan repayments every month. I need a living wage stat.
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Third time around, let me walk you through this so you can see how false it is.

One does not have to acquire crippling debt to work in this market.

Second issue here is the concept that a living wage will pay off your debts.
That is just false. A living wage has to do with the amount necessary to sustain a frugal lifestyle as well as preserving the employer so that they can continue to pay workers.
 
YourNameHere said:
But working a 40-hour week at the minimum should be enough money to insure that worker the ability to purchase food and shelter. No frills, but the minimum to sustain life.
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In the US, after payroll taxes, assuming no income tax (valid at that level), the yearly income is under 14K per year. That would put one well under the poverty level, even if one was single. I do not share your opinion. However, assuming you are right, I would not say a minimum to sustain life is a just wage. It should be enough “cultivate worthily his own material, social, cultural, and spiritual life”. Now, that statement certainly lends itself to various interpretations, but it is hard to interpret it as “a minimum to sustain life”.
 
vz71 said:
One does not have to acquire crippling debt to work in this market.
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Let me walk you through this once because I don’t need to split the thread by multi posting.

In order to get a job more then the average ditch digger you need a trade often needs a degree; electrical, plumbing, welding, computer anything.

These are required to get a career that pays more then the job you clearly have in mind for me to survive.
vz71 said:
A living wage has to do with the amount necessary to sustain a frugal lifestyle as well as preserving the employer so that they can continue to pay workers.
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The fact you think education is not a needed and that I have to give up a chance to pay for it ontop of helping you make it easy on you to hire workers is disturbing.

Concept; how about you cut costs to include a fair wage and if you can’t expand because you can’t hire more workers maybe just maybe ya shouldn’t.
 
In the United States, there are laws which govern wages. We are bound to obey those laws.
 
Most certainly, but the title of the thread is “What wage is just?”. Are you suggesting that simply obeying those laws would result in an affirmative answer to the question of the thread?
 
If I were to feel the law was unjust I would work to change the law.
 
tafan2 said:
Whatever is agreeable to the employer and employee is just.
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Pleeeease … a statement cannot contradict Catholic teaching if it is Catholic teaching.

Rerum Novarum:
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    Let the working man and the employer make free agreements, and in particular let them agree freely as to the wages.
Yes, yes, yes … I see that rather than emphasize the main point of the teaching, some would rather empathize only the caveat and disregard the main point entirely. That is an erroneous representation of the teaching. The fact that the conditions that moved Rerum Novarum to add the caveat no longer exist does not slow them down an iota. If this misrepresentation is willful then shame on them.

An employer is not morally obligated to pay an unjust wage. An unjust wage is any wage greater than that which allows the company to continue. How can the employer pay laborers more than his competitors pay their labor and continue the enterprise? He cannot. If the local labor demands more than the market rate for their labor, the employer must automate, i.e. operate the business without their labor, or shut down terminating all other employees in the process.
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Anrakyr said:
Let me walk you through this once because I don’t need to split the thread by multi posting.

In order to get a job more then the average ditch digger you need a trade often needs a degree; electrical, plumbing, welding, computer anything.

These are required to get a career that pays more then the job you clearly have in mind for me to survive.
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One does not need to acquire crippling debt to become a certified electrician, welder, plumber, or computer operator.
Anrakyr said:
The fact you think education is not a needed and that I have to give up a chance to pay for it ontop of helping you make it easy on you to hire workers is disturbing.
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Not only have I not said this, I have repeatedly advocated that people should continue to gain skill sets to suit employment.
 
tafan2 said:
Most certainly, but the title of the thread is “What wage is just?”. Are you suggesting that simply obeying those laws would result in an affirmative answer to the question of the thread?
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I would say that in many cases, the laws provide for MORE then what would be a just wage.
 
o_mlly said:
The fact that the conditions that moved Rerum Novarum to add the caveat no longer exist does not slow them down an iota.
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I do not understand why you are always discussing a condition in Rerum Novarum that is no longer needed. I am not quoting Rerum Novarum. I am quoting the Compendium of Social Justice of the Catholic Church, published in 2004.
o_mlly said:
I see that rather than emphasize the main point of the teaching, some would rather empathize only the caveat and disregard the main point entirely
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I am not emphasizing any point, but simply highlighting the point which contradicts you statement. Again, you say “Whatever is agreeable to the employer and employee is just.”. The Catholic Church says: “The simple agreement between employee and employer with regard to the amount of pay to be received is not sufficient for the agreed-upon salary to qualify as a “just wage””. Do you not understand what “not sufficient” means? It does not mean an agreement is not required, it means that it is not the only thing required. In particular:
Remuneration for labour is to be such that man may be furnished the means to cultivate worthily his own material, social, cultural, and spiritual life and that of his dependents, in view of the function and productiveness of each one, the conditions of the factory or workshop, and the common good
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The minimum wage laws do not imply that any given wage is necessarily just or unjust. Yes, we are morally bound to follow those laws, as the law itself is not unjust. But that does suffice to satisfy the Church’s definition of just wage. Go back and read the article linked in the OP, IIRC it does not discuss a legal minimum wage at all.

Should we establish minimum wage laws that do satisfy the Church’s teaching? In theory, that would be great. But if one understands the teaching, I believe it would be exceedingly difficult to do. One might be able to define a law a local level which does so, although the local laws, such as Seattle’s do not do so IMO. On a national level, it would be impossible, too many variables.
 
For some cases, eg a high school kid living at home with his parents having a summer job. But if we are talking about independent adults, most of the time they most certainly do not. Please see my most previous post, I am not advocating fixing minimum wage jobs such that the do ensure a just wage. Like many problems in society, the fixes can be assisted by the government, but they really require a change of heart among individuals. That has to start with understanding the problem. To my knowledge, there is only one institution that gives good guidelines on this question, the Catholic Church. I think we should start by understanding what the Church says.
 
I’m a member of the ASP, so, have had “just wage” debates that go on and on and on.

My opinion is that the state defines a minimum wage. If the employer wishes to pay more, then, the worker ought be able to negotiate for more. It does not make an employer un-just if they cannot afford to pay more than the mandated minimum.
 
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