What wage is just?

[Dracarys]

What on earth are you getting for your tax payments?!? You’re being robbed blind and patting yourself on the back for it - its honestly bizarre!

As a libertarian I am all for eliminating the IRS and having a flat tax. Also I support President Trump’s effort to pull out of NATO. You Europeans have been relying on us long enough. I’ve been told by other posters here that the EU can defend themselves without us. Well…do it.

I aknowledge the UK has a better deal for taxpayers than France, and other countries. Although I think your VAT may counter a lot of your benefit.

The fairest way to have a tax is first cut expenses like all the military aid we give to other countries, entitlements, etc. Then when the US budget is trimmed we must make progress on our $22 trillion debt. In the meantime have one fair tax amount all citizens pay. I did not day one percentage but rather one amount. Poor people benefit equally from federal services so we should all pay the same.

 

[Socrates92]

Essentially yes. I doubt that the elasticity of demand with respect to future loan payments is zero, but students en masse are less sensitive to future debt than they are to immediate out-of-pocket expenses, so it might be pretty close.

 

[_Ruby]

Well, for most people, it would be bizarre to own a house worth three quarters of a million USD, especially if their household wasn’t even making the median income (~61,000 currently I believe). Seeing as though that is by far the biggest factor in your comparative analysis, your implication that the UK is superior to the US in terms of tax competitiveness is called into question.

I was trying to keep it as alike for like as possible. If i were doing my role in the US, no doubt I would be paid more than the like for like £ to $ conversion, which would push the tax deduction up further. My house is in London, so a notoriously high for house prices, like quite a few cities in the US would be, but we can lower the comparison cost to reflect a more ‘normal’ situation.

Keeping the wage comparisons the same, even if my house in the US cost $300,000, at 2% on property tax, i’m still paying 1% more in tax overall in the US than I would in the states, but again, with no real benefits to show for it.

 

[Socrates92]

Poor people benefit equally from federal services so we should all pay the same.

Realistically, they probably benefit quite a bit more, but I doubt a regressive tax would be very popular (although it is an interesting idea…).

 

[tafan2]

This argument is not valid. It is too simplistic view of the economy. It has actually been an argument that has been used about higher wages for over 100 years, and it has never proven true beyond very short term effects. Simply put, moving more people into the middle class does not cause an increase in unemployment nor and increase in inflation. As I mentioned early on, when Henry Ford doubled his factory pay in 1914, he was met with much the same criticism.

The reason it does not hold true relative to inflation is that it assumes all other costs are uncontrollable and there are no improvements in efficiency that companies can make. Simply put, when paying higher wages, they are forced by the market to figure out how to be more efficient.

Oh, but then it has to cause unemployment? Again, this is not true, as the more people who move into the middle class, the more demand for various goods and services arise, and the more employment opportunities are available.

If this argument was true, we would have seen either very high inflation and/or unemployment take hold and stay with us over the course of the 20th century, especially the first 75 years. It did not occur.

 

[Socrates92]

Keeping the wage comparisons the same, even if my house in the US cost $300,000, at 2% on property tax, i’m still paying 1% more in tax overall in the US than I would in the states, but again, with no real benefits to show for it.

Did you mean “1% more in the UK than the state…”?
Based on your current salary, your total tax load in the states would be (6,000 + 4537 + 3950)/51628 ~ 28%, which is slightly better than the 30% you currently pay. Using a different wage than the UK equivalent is comparing apples to oranges, but based on those numbers, there doesn’t seem to be a massive difference between the two countries.

 

[_Ruby]

Our VAT rate is 20%, the sales tax in the US varies, but some do have a max sales tax of 16%, thats not a huge jump on every day item costs. As i said before, a lot of essential items in the UK are not subject to VAT, so buying a loaf of bread doesn’t incur a tax, I dont know if that is similar to the US.

With regards to NATO, the UK has been contributing the agreed 2% of its GDP, so if the US is choosing to take all the money from their tax payers and spend it all on other countries defence, then by all means, reduce your contributions. To not do so is pure stupidity.

The UK’s debt as a % of GDP is smaller than the US and yet can still take its citizens taxes and give them protections and benefits, this is even with a government who has been using a policy of austerity to reduce the debt following the recession. Your government is just taking almost exactly the same tax deductions from the vast majority of your tax payers and throwing it away, but then you’re calling European’s ‘brats’ for using common sense and holding their government to account for their tax contributions.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I haven’t gone through the 719 previous replies. I suspect they pretty much say the same thing: “Why should I pay for X? My taxes are too high.”

I am in the process of replying to a cousin’s e-mail. He lives in Australia. I sent him my income and tax payments (US), and he replied that I was “well off.” I certainly don’t FEEL “well off.” My income is in the 80th percentile–i.e., I’m in the top 20%. But I have to budget very carefully, and don’t save at all–the opposite, I have to draw on savings to pay for large repairs, etc. If I am in the top 20% and feel like I am barely keeping my head above water, how do people with half the income (still above the poverty line!) manage? Esp. if they have children? I have absolutely no idea.

When I visited Australia in 2012, my first impression was “Everyone is driving a new car.” I didn’t see any old cars at all. And yes, I travelled all over–by car. Then I looked at a real estate analysis: the average house price in Australia at that time was $630,000; now I hear it’s over $1 million (A$). And yet young people are buying houses, everyone seems to have a good job, and their salaries are high. Restaurants and food in general seemed to be the same price as the US. Although some people might react by saying “Australian restaurant prices are really high!!!” without taking the equivalent meal in the US and adding in sales tax (often 10%+ in restaurants) and 15-20% tip. So an Australian meal that costs A$ 20 first needs to be converted to US$–so US$15. If an equivalent meal in the US were $10, you’d need to add $1 for sales tax and $2 for a tip. So $13. But then you get to things like portion size, free refills, quality, etc. etc. Hard to compare!

My point is simply that it’s VERY difficult to compare the cost of living in different countries. There are all sorts of indirect costs and savings. For example, the cost of electricity. Or the cost of high-value items like automobiles. Or the cost of free schools vs. the cost of keeping more people in jail. You could make a valid comparison, but it would take months and months of analysis. The best way to compare is actually live in another country for a prolonged period. I have lived in four different countries for a minimum of two years in each.

As for “Why should I pay for X?” the answer depends on how you feel about belonging to a community of fellow citizens. Are we (all citizens) in this together? Or are some lucky and some unlucky, and that’s just the way it goes?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

You will earn according to what you bring to your employer. You are not “entitled” to one cent more than what you can contribute.

Clearly we have had different experiences. In my own experience, merit, contribution, or whatever you want to call it had absolutely nothing to do with pay. Pay depended on your personal relationship to the owner/manager. It had nothing to do with merit. In fact, in eight full times jobs, I have never–ever–seen merit rewarded. Just the opposite. In one job they laid off 16 workers. When the list was posted, I started reading it thinking “Oh, this must be a list of people who are getting bonuses because they are the best workers in the company.” Nope. They were the ones getting laid off–the ones who everyone [among the workers themselves] agreed were the best employees. The idea that merit pays is just ridiculous to me.

One example that sticks in my mind: Several years ago a close relative was in assisted living. She had dementia. I could only visit a few times a year since the asst. living facility was the opposite direction from where I worked. Over several years, I only learned the name of one of the caretakers. She was by far the best of the lot, and she was young. I met her by chance at a movie and said “I haven’t seen you around lately. Do you still work at X?” She said, “No. I quit. I asked for a raise of 19 cents an hour [that would be $1.52 a day or $7.60 a week…] and they refused. So I quit.” I had probably seen 30 different caretakers over several years. This young woman was by far the best. But for the sake of $7.60 a week, they let her walk away. Merit? I think not. Rationally, they didn’t care if she were better than the others or not. They didn’t get higher fees because she did things more cheerfully or efficiently. None of that mattered.

 

[_Ruby]

Yes sorry, I misread my bit of paper covered in a million calculations.

It is very difficult to compare like for like, especially with the level of state variations in the US, but I admit I always assumed taxes in the US were very minimal, so i’m genuinely surprised at how close both countries deductions are for the majority of their regular workers.

 

[leonhardprintz]

Well then it sounds like you in Europe are ready to finally pay your own way. The US can withdraw from NATO and withdraw all our troops from all European bases

If that is what you want. That would certainly kickstart the creation of the European Coalition Army, just as you threatening to cut our GPS signals, caused us to go ahead with developing our own GPS network Galileo.

defending us from the foreign invasion to the south.

There is no foreign invasion from the south in the US.

When they confiscate more than half your income in taxes you don’t really have property rights.

I’m afraid this is a meaningless soundbyte. The government has the natural right to set a tax. With the money I own I may purchase whatever I want, and I can rightfully claim to be the owner of that item.

Is that because you were learning your job or was it to pay off your college?

Yes, I studied physics at the Institute for Physics and Astronomy at Aarhus University, which led to a masters degree and a minor in computer science, which led me eventually to my current employment as a Consultant.

Most of the fellow Consultants came from the excellent mathematical and computer science training that this university excelled at.

As I pointed out before another flaw in your argument is that not every college grad majors in something worthwhile enough to actually pay off their free ride through college.

I agree that we can’t spend unlimited amounts of money on liberal arts, none the less I support the liberal arts. I have a niece who’s studying History at the moment, and one of my good friends majored in Scholastic Philosophy. The world is a richer, more interesting place, for having them in it.

How much money is set aside for those pursuits is a matter of prudential judgement, and should be negotiated year by year.

Fine, but why do people who don’t go to college have to pay your way in the first place?

It is a different philosophical outlook than individualism. Its solidarity. We all lift together. We help the next generation, which we want to be well read, and intelligent. Denmark have few natural resources other than corn and ham. We have people, and we invest in those and form companies based on the ability to provide technical solutions.

Don’t forget parts of the F-35 are produced in specialized plants in my country.

Leonhard":

The Catholic Church teaches in a rather stern and binding way in regards to how workers should be compensated for their work

I have not read those directives,

You should

 

[Dracarys]

Simply put, moving more people into the middle class does not cause an increase in unemployment nor and increase in inflation. As I mentioned early on, when Henry Ford doubled his factory pay in 1914, he was met with much the same criticism.

Your entire premise is false. Ford made a voluntary decision to increase wages so his employees could afford to buy his cars. The government did not mandate an across the board increase in wages. Customers could still buy cheaper vehicles from other companies. Henry Ford had the flexiblity to eventually lower wages if his theory did not work out. If there ever is a ridiculous US government mandate that unskilled workers get paid a wage beyond what they provide to the company prices must increase exponentially. Fast food companies have already used automation to replace unskilled labor. You would see a lot more of that if you people have your way. As I said before, the only other alternative is $15 Big Mac.

 

[Elf01]

Your entire premise is false. Ford made a voluntary decision to increase wages so his employees could afford to buy his cars. The government did not mandate an across the board increase in wages. Customers could still buy cheaper vehicles from other companies. Henry Ford had the flexiblity to eventually lower wages if his theory did not work out. If there ever is a ridiculous US government mandate that unskilled workers get paid a wage beyond what they provide to the company prices must increase exponentially. Fast food companies have already used automation to replace unskilled labor. You would see a lot more of that if you people have your way. As I said before, the only other alternative is $15 Big Mac.

A business model that relies on exploiting employees is not a good one.

On saying that, we as consumers should bear that in mind and be willing to pay more to see employees well treated.

 

[tafan2]

First of all, I will remind you again that I am not discussing a minum wage, but a just wage. Never-the-less, when Ford did voluntarily increase wages, most of the people in business of various types made the same arguement, if everyone does that, it will cause inflation and unemployment. But, due to union pressure (not voluntarily) all companies ended up increases wages well beyond the pitiful rates that were paid at the turn of the century. And it did not have the effects that you guys claim. If employers who currently do not pay a just wage, started paying just wages today, regardless of their motivation (legal enforcement or they simply decided to fallow Church teaching), it would not have the spiraling effect on inflation and unemployment that was described in the post to which I responded.

 

[LilyM]

Dude, look at my example from Australia upthread - where .minimum wage is US$12 per hour and yet we magically somehow still manage to produce a US $4.20 Big Mac.

And stop telling me that it can’t be done. It is being done, and not just by Australia but it seems our UK friends - another example upthread - are getting a better range of government services for comparable taxes to those in the US.

Or do you just read what you want and ignore the real-life experiences of people from other countries that show you just might be wrong?

 

[Dracarys]

There is no foreign invasion from the south in the US.

From the source: Humanitarian and Security Crisis at Southern Border Reaches 'Breaking Point' | Homeland Security

I’m afraid this is a meaningless soundbyte. The government has the natural right to set a tax. With the money I own I may purchase whatever I want, and I can rightfully claim to be the owner of that item.

I bet it’s not meaningless to those who have to pay it. Why do you feel qualified
to speak for them.

Yes, I studied physics at the Institute for Physics and Astronomy at Aarhus University,

You are not clear. We’re you earning a quarter of your current salary to pay back the government for others giving you a free ride or because that was the starting pay for your profession?

have a niece who’s studying History at the moment, and one of my good friends majored in Scholastic Philosophy. The world is a richer, more interesting place, for having them in it.

Well I certainly would not be willing to pay out my hard earned cash to someone majoring in something useless just because you think they make the world “beautiful”. That is the most lame argument I have seen you give yet. LOL!

It is a different philosophical outlook than individualism. Its solidarity. We all lift togethe

Wow your just making me cry with all this let’s just hold hands and hug garbage. :hugs:How about St. Paul’s comment that if you don’t work you don’t eat? Tell your relatives to go get a real job so they too can pay back their debt. Or better yet just stop forcing your fellow countrymen from paying for other people’s education. Let these people get an education that pays the bills.

You should

I don’t have time to read theory without any grounding in reality. As I said to you before neither the Church or the pope himself will be able to set wages, prices, or profits. It’s all based on market supply and demand.

 

[LilyM]

First of all, I will remind you again that I am not discussing a minum wage, but a just wage. Never-the-less, when Ford did voluntarily increase wages, most of the people in business of various types made the same arguement, if everyone does that, it will cause inflation and unemployment. But, due to union pressure (not voluntarily) all companies ended up increases wages well beyond the pitiful rates that were paid at the turn of the century. And it did not have the effects that you guys claim. If employers who currently do not pay a just wage, started paying just wages today, regardless of their motivation (legal enforcement or they simply decided to fallow Church teaching), it would not have the spiraling effect on inflation and unemployment that was described in the post to which I responded.

Amen! Amen!

 

[LilyM]

leonhardprintz:

There is no foreign invasion from the south in the US.

From the source: Humanitarian and Security Crisis at Southern Border Reaches 'Breaking Point' | Homeland Security

I’m afraid this is a meaningless soundbyte. The government has the natural right to set a tax. With the money I own I may purchase whatever I want, and I can rightfully claim to be the owner of that item.

I bet it’s not meaningless to those who have to pay it. Why do you feel qualified
to speak for them.

Yes, I studied physics at the Institute for Physics and Astronomy at Aarhus University,

You are not clear. We’re you earning a quarter of your current salary to pay back the government for others giving you a free ride or because that was the starting pay for your profession?

have a niece who’s studying History at the moment, and one of my good friends majored in Scholastic Philosophy. The world is a richer, more interesting place, for having them in it.

Well I certainly would not be willing to pay out my hard earned cash to someone majoring in something useless just because you think they make the world “beautiful”. That is the most lame argument I have seen you give yet. LOL!

It is a different philosophical outlook than individualism. Its solidarity. We all lift togethe

Wow your just making me cry with all this let’s just hold hands and hug garbage. :hugs:How about St. Paul’s comment that if you don’t work you don’t eat? Tell your relatives to go get a real job so they too can pay back their debt. Or better yet just stop forcing your fellow countrymen from paying for other people’s education. Let these people get an education that pays the bills.

You should

I don’t have time to read theory without any grounding in reality. As I said to you before neither the Church or the pope himself will be able to set wages, prices, or profits. It’s all based on market supply and demand.

Wow - ‘Whatsoever you do to the least of these, that you do unto Me’ must really make you sick then. Not to mention the verse in Acts where the early Christians quite literally pooled everything they had and held it all in common for the common benefit of all.

 

[tafan2]

I don’t have time to read theory without any grounding in reality. As I said to you before neither the Church or the pope himself will be able to set wages, prices, or profits. It’s all based on market supply and demand

The Church does not teach theory ungrounded in reality. That is quite a attack on Church doctrine. The Church nor the pope does not set wages, prices, or profits, it provides guidelines for wages as part of its teaching, wer are all called to make prudential judgements when applying its social doctrine, but ignoring, nay disparaging it, it is not a moral option for a Catholic.
As for wages just being set on supply and demand, if this is all they are based on, history has shown it will certainly lead to an unjust economy.

 

[leonhardprintz]

From the source:

The word “invasion” occurs nowhere in the article.

I bet it’s not meaningless to those who have to pay it. Why do you feel qualified
to speak for them.

I’ll be paying it eventually, come next promotion.

You are not clear. We’re you earning a quarter of your current salary to pay back the government for others giving you a free ride or because that was the starting pay for your profession?

I was given a quarter of my currently salary as money recieved for studying, I also happen to know the full costs of my education. Considering all those things integrated together, I will have paid it back more than twice in taxes.

I didn’t mean that the company I work for paid for my education. I meant the amount of money I received was one quarter of what I earn now (after taxes of course).

Well I certainly would not be willing to pay out my hard earned cash to someone majoring in something useless just because you think they make the world “beautiful”. That is the most lame argument I have seen you give yet. LOL!

I’m sorry for you then.

Wow your just making me cry with all this let’s just hold hands and hug garbage. :hugs:How about St. Paul’s comment that if you don’t work you don’t eat?

Your arguments are degenerating into insults and emotionalism.

Students are studying, that is a work. That’s their job at that station in life. There is nothing wrong with this.

I don’t have time to read theory without any grounding in reality.

Aren’t you a Catholic?

As I said to you before neither the Church or the pope himself will be able to set wages, prices, or profits.

I have stated multiple times that I am not in favor of minimum wage laws. I’ve only stated and defended the principle that its unethical to pay a grown person below the minimum wage.