What wage is just?

[Erikaspirit16]

It is a different philosophical outlook than individualism. Its solidarity. We all lift together. We help the next generation, which we want to be well read, and intelligent.

Exactly. This is indeed a “foreign” idea in the US. I lived in Canada for 20 years. Friends often ask me if I saw any differences. After all, we speak the same language, watch the same TV shows, shop at the same stores, and belong to the same unions. But there is a huge difference, and it’s exactly what you said: solidarity. Why is Toronto so clean compared to US cities? Because random people pick up trash as they walk by. Why? Because they see Toronto as “their” city, just as the subway is “their” subway. They keep their houses clean, their subway clean, and their city clean. Its all theirs. It doesn’t belong to some alien “government.” They are all citizens. This also goes to a sense of identity. There are more Sikhs in the Canadian cabinet than in the Indian cabinet. And I think if you asked each one “How would you describe yourself?” They would each say “I’m Canadian.”

This probably expresses it best:

 

[Ridgerunner]

FYI – Unemployment is not caused by minimum wages. Unemployment comes from a lack of jobs. Check out the Great Depression.

This reminded me. My grandfather was a farmer. He went bust in the Depression and was foreclosed. He was a varied farmer like most small farmers were in those days. All he had left was a Model A pickup. His wife died and he had two young girls to raise. He started cutting firewood and hauling it to town in the pickup to sell. He delivered the wood in the alleys behind peoples’ houses.

As he did, he noticed all the food people were throwing away, some of it expensive and then it struck him. Yes, 25% or so of the population were unemployed. But that meant 75% of the population was employed, and some of them were better off than they were before the Depression because some of their wages stayed the same when prices dropped.

In those days, strawberries were a real luxury, and seasonal only. He figured the people with money would buy them even though people without money could barely buy bread. So he rented five acres of land and raised strawberries. Sold every one of them. It was remarkable. Trains were such that strawberries you loaded in southern Missouri in the evening would be in the stores in St. Louis or Chicago as soon as they opened the next morning. Eventually, he had many more acres of strawberries and was a prosperous man. Sent his daughters to college at a time when almost nobody did.

“Figure out how to sell or provide a service to rich people” he said. And he was right about that. Why? Because “justice in trade” is when each person trades to the other that which he values less for that which he values more. His strawberries meant more to rich ladies in Chicago than the money they paid for them did, and the cash the pickers got meant more to them than the hours they spent in the sun picking them.

And for a society, it’s still the same. What every employer (and economy as a whole) needs to do is figure out how to provide to those with money that which they value more than they value the cost of it.

 

[Socrates92]

When they confiscate more than half your income in taxes you don’t really have property rights.

Not entirely meaningless. Yes, the government does have a right to collect taxes, but you can’t really maintain that the amount is irrelevant. There is a point at which it does become confiscatory. Also, things like property taxes and taxes on capital gain do in fact infringe on property rights, as the government now claims a stake in what you claim to be yours.

 

[o_mlly]

If this argument was true, we would have seen either very high inflation and/or unemployment take hold and stay with us over the course of the 20th century, especially the first 75 years. It did not occur.

Au contraire. Yes, we have seen such high inflation rates. You would do well to do at least some research before posting fallacious opinions.

The inflation rate in the USA over the the 20th century was very – over 2,000%.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) high.

Yes, that’s right. 3.2% compounded over ~ 100 years makes what used to cost a $1 now cost over $2,000.

Well, that number covers a basket of goods (all of which have some labor content) so let’s drill down and just look at a labor intensive service to see what kind of inflation in labor rates has taken place: How about haircuts? And let’s use BLS data.

BLS began to collect data on haircuts in 1955.

Man’s haircut, $1.42 in 1955.

One hundred years of price change: the Consumer Price Index and the American inflation experience : Monthly Labor Review: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

And what does a man’s hair cut cost in 2019?

… average cost of a haircut in the United States is $28

Men's Haircut Prices: How Much Does A Barber's Cut Cost?

So, in just 64 years the price of a haircut has increased 20 times; that 2,000%.

One website showed the price of a haircut and shave in 1940 was only $0.40.

The price of a shave and a haircut at Leo’s Barber Shop on Park Avenue was 35 cents in 1940.

Trivia Answers: How Much Did a Haircut Cost in 1940? | Portsmouth, RI Patch

Do the math.

 

[LilyM]

leonhardprintz:

When they confiscate more than half your income in taxes you don’t really have property rights.

Not entirely meaningless. Yes, the government does have a right to collect taxes, but you can’t really maintain that the amount is irrelevant. There is a point at which it does become confiscatory. Also, things like property taxes and taxes on capital gain do in fact infringe on property rights, as the government now claims a stake in what you claim to be yours.

It has nothing to do with amount, any more than any other form of (alleged) theft has to do with the amount. If I freely, informedly and voluntarily sign 90 per cent of my income over to anyone, be it you or the government, neither case constitutes theft simply because the amount is high.

If I don’t like the amount of taxes, or the way they are being spent, where I live, I am free either to move or not pay taxes. But if I choose not to pay taxes, then I should in fairness forego all taxpayer funded utilities, such as public roads, water and sewage systems, schools, hospitals, libraries, or the services of police, firefighters, and so on. Some people do go completely off the grid for those reasons.

And in all fairness I should recognise that refusing to pay taxes is illegal and be prepared to accept the law’s punishment for my civil disobedience in not paying them.

 

[Dracarys]

Or do you just read what you want and ignore the real-life experiences of people from other countries that show you just might be wrong?

$12 an hour is a lot less than the $17 an hour some on this thread want. Although I doubt many American entrepenurs would take the $12 deal either. If you put in the time and money to own your own store you want it to be rewarding. I really do like what many new stores are doing by using cheaper automation to replace low skill labor. That is good from owner perspective, and may make discussions like this moot.

 

[tafan2]

I can do the math. Yes, with a fiat currency being managed by central bankers (who in the west have a DNA change to make them fear deflation above all) we will always have a rate of inflation. And I can do the math, when the inflation is 3% annually that is an exponential function. But we can live with that. And it is by no means caused by an increase in real (ie after inflation ) wages.

BTW, my pet peeve, (and I do a lot of economic studying professionally), about long term economic graphs such as the one you show about is having a linear y axis. Everyone knows things like inflation, and GDP growth are exponential functions, so a graph showing these over times illustrates nothing useful than what a real-world exponential function might look like. When ever I see one, and it is always, without fail, published by doomsday sayers (eg a stock market graph or an inflation graph), and it has a linear scaled y axis, I quite reading right away, as it is apparent they are trying to mislead the public. You will note that no one ever does this on the good side of things, eg showing GDP growth. FYI, the Y-axis should be logarithmically scaled.

Rant over, but if I were you I would ignore everything on the INflationData.com web site. I have not seen it, but if this is their propaganda,they cannot be trusted.

 

[Dracarys]

It has nothing to do with amount, any more than any other form of (alleged) theft has to do with the amount. If I freely, informedly and voluntarily sign 90 per cent of my income over to anyone, be it you or the government, neither case constitutes theft si

If you don’t pay taxes large men with big guns will take your stuff focefully. It’s legal theft. Watch Dr Zhivago where the Doctor comes home from war to what used to be a nice house. Now there are comrades living there with the Soviet governments approval. The good doctor can’t do anything about it.

No I use every legal means possible to hold on to what I have. You are one who yields to the collective for the “greater good.” Ayn Rand stressed free individuals working for their self interest will, in the end, benefit society.

 

[JimG]

o_mlly:

Yes, that’s right. 3.2% compounded over ~ 100 years makes what used to cost a $1 now cost over $2,000.

Yet the US Federal Reserve insists that a 2% inflation rate every year is not only reasonable but necessary to protect us from any hint of deflation. A stable value for the currency is never even considered. Thus spenders are always favored over savers, many of whom fail to realize that their savings are steadily losing value.

 

[Socrates92]

Yet the US Federal Reserve insists that a 2% inflation rate every year is not only reasonable but necessary to protect us from any hint of deflation.

Such a crazy idea, that deflation = the apocalypse.

 

[Socrates92]

I’ve only stated and defended the principle that its unethical to pay a grown person below the minimum wage.

Is it unethical to allow a grown person to volunteer for free? (with the obvious understanding that that adult is earning a living elsewhere?) If so, why would it be unethical to pay an adult something in between zero and the current level of the min. wage?

 

[Emeraldlady]

I don’t know if this has been mentioned but I wonder whether the tipping system in the US works against fair minimum wage rates? We found it confusing and even strange that some places included a tip amount in the actual bill total. We thought it was a dodge in that how do we know that that amount goes to the staff in the end? After a month of having to deal with that, all us travellers roundly agreed that we would rather pay extra for our meals knowing that the staff were assured of a higher minimum wage and not have to deal with tipping at all.

 

[Dracarys]

The word “invasion” occurs nowhere in the article.

The word “crisis” does.

The word “invasion” occurs nowhere in the article

No but the word “crisis” was. Your just arguing semantics. 75 people is not an invasion. 750 even is not an invasion. 75000 in one month and its now getting warmer IS an invasion. In my state when a burglar forces their way into a house its called a “home invasion”. If you want all these illegal aliens come over here and invite them to Denmark.

I was given a quarter of my currently salary as money recieved for studying, I also happen to know the full costs of my education. Considering all those things integrated together, I will have paid it back more than twice in taxes.

But everyone pays taxes. It sounds to me like your not really paying your specific loan right? Your argument is really misleading. I can get a student loan here in the US for my degree and then get a well paying job and pay more income tax, but I still have to pay my SPECIFIC student loan. You do see the difference dont you. Because you live in a cradle to grave socialist welfare state you see the payment for the college education as a gift.

I’m sorry for you then.

Give me a break, even you don’t really believe this nonsense! You Danes just all a happy group of people living in utopia where artist and poets are free to express their muze at taxpayer expense. Yeah sure.

Your arguments are degenerating into insults and emotionalism.

Students are studying, that is a work. That’s their job at that station in life. There is nothing wrong with this.

Wow so St. Paul was wrong??? I am not insulting you in the least. I have a hard time beliving that an entire country is on the same page with this. Studying is not work that pays a wage. Its something you do to earn a wage.

Aren’t you a Catholic?

Yes, but I find this pope to be hopelessly liberal with all the comments he has made. He lost me when he called money “devils dung”. Well I decided then that I don’t want o stink up church with feces, so I no longer put dung money in the collection basket. This pope does not have a clue about how economics works. I must admit that I find him a little dense to be honest. Just mu opinion

I have stated multiple times that I am not in favor of minimum wage laws. I’ve only stated and defended the principle that its unethical to pay a grown person below the minimum wage.

.Yes i know and respect that you don’t want a minimum wage. However I still see you as standing on the sidelines tisking away at any company who dares not to pay its employee your randomly contrived living wage of $17 an hour. Where is your compassion for the business owner? Why do you always leave him out of your equation?

 

[Elf01]

Where is your compassion for the business owner? Why do you always leave him out of your equation?

Frankly I think most of them could pag a living wage and stay in business.

 

[ewohdrol]

Yet which countries have a better lifestyle and standard of living overall? Who has more homelessness?

Stop calling those countries socialist. They are capitalist countries that offer services to its citizens to help them out when they are at their financial worst.

Spinds almost like a christian principle.

 

[tafan2]

Ask those people who lived through the Great Depression if deflation is any fun. I still remember my dad saying one time when I was in high school, “inflation might seem bad, but the it’s a heck of a lot better than the opposite”. Then I went to college and in a finance class our professor explain why deflation is such a catrastrophe, I realized my dad wasn’t so dumb after all.
Wages fall, prices fall, no one who has money wants to spend anything. The economy, which was doing bad to bring on deflation in the first place, slowly sputters.

 

[ewohdrol]

Strange how you attempt to discredit the poster by asking if they don’t agree with St Paul, thus imply they are not catholic enough.

Yet the next paragraph call our pope dense and willfully ignore his teachings on the evils of money. Cherry picking much?

 

[tafan2]

Count me as one who prefers a 2% inflation buffer against the problems of deflation. The economists at the fed just might be a little smarter than you.

 

[ewohdrol]

Because the business owner is in a position of relative power compared to the worker.

If someone is desperate for work they will accept anything. Even if it means they will still not be able to provide adequately for themselves…in their desperation it is better than nothing.

This thread is strangly hypocritcal. We want individuals to have large families and absolutely not have abortions. But so many people are unwilling to acknowledge that finances are a huge factor in family planning. Posters will argue that it is tough and they can get another job. It doesn’t take a stretch to see how this will affect families and their decision making.

 

[JimG]

I don’t know if this has been mentioned but I wonder whether the tipping system in the US works against fair minimum wage rates?

Some waitstaff have opposed any minimum wage increase, as well as including a fixed tip in the bill, because it reduces their pay. Customers tip less under eitbher case. In other words, they make more without a minimum wage increase.