What wage is just?

[Dracarys]

But of course if the kids grow up to be wage earners their social security withholding taxes will go to support those on social security who did not even have children. Or they might become business owners who employ hundreds or thousands of people.

That is not applicable. They are just as likely to not not have a job and be a liability to society. The social security system will most likely run out of money soon anyway. When you factor in the time value of money calculations the math does not add up. The bottom line is that if you choose to have multiple children it’s YOUR responsibility to pay for them. Would you go knock on your neighbors doors and demand they pay you money for your large family? I hope you wouldn’t, so why do you allow the government to do this on your behalf?

 

[vz71]

Obviously it wasn’t all that obvious.

Please, the point is already made.
There is no need to over emphasize it.

 

[Dracarys]

Most employers want to pay people a living wage

I would even take it further and say that if an employer is not paying a wage as dictated by the going rate if the market he will loose his best employees to another company that does pay the market rate.

 

[Dracarys]

The word “invasion” doesn’t occur in that article. It is not an article describing an invasion. There is no army invading you. No declaration of war. No intent of conquest. So in any formal sense, there’s no invasion of the US.

An army is not required to have an invasion. Anyone with common sense will see that having 75000 people a month cutting or clibing fences fences to force their way into a country is a serious problem. The US Homeland security department calls it a crisis. I use the term invasion. What do you call it? If you had even one person kick down the door of your hose and force his way in you would urgently call the police. Why is it the US should not take urgent measures to stop the invasion?

Look up the difference between “investment” and “loan”. Its not unreasonable to consider the government paying for citizens to get a good education as an investment. Its certainly resulted in danes being in general a lot more well read than US citizens.

I am well aware of the actual difference. A real investment gives a specific and calculable return on investment to the one paying out. Salespeople often say you are "investing"in whatever wicket they are selling. It’s a false statement.

Are you really trying to compare literacy rates between Denmark and the US? We have a much more diverse and larger population than yours. I can’t even name a university in Denmark, but the US has Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. I would put our best against your best anytime. Your economy is a sliver of ours. Do you really want to go there?

 

[Dracarys]

I’m happy about living here and I have no intentions of becoming a US citizen.

Of coarse not you are spoiled. We make you work for things here. I sincerely hope President Trump pulls out of NATO and even withdraws all our troops from Europe and Mideast. Let’s see if you guys can continue the freebie entitlements when you have to field your own military.

No, but it is work. It is in fact an education, which in many cases, especially with the case of STEM fields,

Again, it’s you that does not truly understand an investment with specific returns. Paying for free education of a poetry or art major is useless. In any case we in the US are doing fine with STEM. We even get thousands of STEM majors from India and Asian countries who want to live here.

If they can’t pay a living wage, they should close their business. It isn’t moral to offer anything but a living wage to adults.

And you wonder why I call you a socialist. You continue to not understand that it’s the market that sets wages, prices etc. You want to artificially set wages even though you are not for a minimum wage. It’s not the responsibility of any business owner to pay any specific wage. As I said, and you continue to ignore, some businesses have such thin margins they can’t pay “living wages” as ambiguously defined by you. These are mostly jobs taken by teenagers. If an adult takes this job that is no fault of the owner. Fortunately in the US anyone is free to start a business and pay market wages so long as it meets our archaic minimum wage rule.

Here is a basic principle of business: A worker gets paid based on what he does for a company. If his or her contribution is less than what you consider a “living wage” he is not worth it. For some silly reason you want people to be awarded money simply because they exist.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

leonhardprintz:

The word “invasion” doesn’t occur in that article. It is not an article describing an invasion. There is no army invading you. No declaration of war. No intent of conquest. So in any formal sense, there’s no invasion of the US.

An army is not required to have an invasion. Anyone with common sense will see that having 75000 people a month cutting or clibing fences fences to force their way into a country is a serious problem.

To put that problem into context, there were 3,853,472 births in the US in 2017 - a 30 year low, and far below the replacement level. Our population could easily absorb an additional 900,000 per year. However we do not have to because most of those 75,000 are being turned away. So it is more of a nuisance than a national emergency, and maybe even a blessing.

If you had even one person kick down the door of your house and force his way in you would urgently call the police.

The nation is not a private person’s house, so the analogy with a house is not applicable.

Look up the difference between “investment” and “loan”. Its not unreasonable to consider the government paying for citizens to get a good education as an investment. Its certainly resulted in danes being in general a lot more well read than US citizens.

Are you really trying to compare literacy rates between Denmark and the US? We have a much more diverse and larger population than yours.

Why do you think that is an excuse for a poor literacy rate? Do you think of some segments of society as “uneducateable”?

I can’t even name a university in Denmark…

…which is more evidence of how little Americans know of the outside world. You can further your own knowledge of universities in Denmark here:

Higher education in Denmark - Wikipedia

 

[Dracarys]

Our population could easily absorb an additional 900,000 per year. However we do not have to because most of those 75,000 are being turned away.

Oh really? How did you reach the conclusion we can EASILY do that? According to the US Homeland Security we are at a crisis, so I’ll believe them over you. Can we send our excess to you?

Why do you think that is an excuse for a poor literacy rate? Do you think of some segments of society as “uneducateable”?

It’s not an excuse. But when you have the population we have in the US there is bound to be some that choose to be uneducated. Residents of US are free to do or not do. I’ve noticed some European countries citizens are all in lockstep with each other.

which is more evidence of how little Americans know of the outside world. You can further your own knowledge of universities in Denmark here:

I was responding to a posters contention about the literacy rate in the US as compared to the socialist country of Denmark. I am sure Denmark has fine schools, especially since you get free rides to University. I just wanted to mention that despite the government not giving us free rides we do pretty well here with our universities and colleges.

 

[Dracarys]

Apparently it’s time for a lesson in basic economics. The Europeans here seem to think employers must pay a “living wage” to everyone regardless of the consequences to that employer. Wages are not set by the pope, the Catholic Church, or leftist liberals. Wages, prices charged for goods and services, etc are set by the market through the rules of supply and demand. If an employee comes to an employer with high skills that most people can’t offer he will be paid the going rate for what he or she contributes. Even then a highly skilled or highly educated employee may be fired if he does not have good work ethics. Maybe he is constantly late, or he does not follow directions. So if you have an employee who has high skills that are in demand with a low supply of workers who can do it he or she will earn a high wage comenserate with the market.

The employee must offer skills, knowledge, or talent to the employer. How do they get these attributes? Through college, trade school, talent, or work experience. We all know this right? I just met a chef who said he earned $60 K a year. He said he never went to culinary arts school, but he accumulated a record of knowledge of cooking, and had a track record of good work skills. He was a bus boy, waiter and by watching the chefs he became a prep cook. He worked himself up to chef in charge of a staff of seven people. So yes it can be done. YOU WILL NOT EARN A HIGH WAGE JUST BECAUSE YOU EXIST. And I would add you shouldn’t.

That is how it works in the United States. In Europe it seems you put on your little beret and any employer must hire and maintain you. That is why the US GDP far exceeds any of your contries. That is why anytime any of you get in trouble you ask the good old USA to bail you out with either finances or military aid. That is why I encourage President Trump and Congress to break it off with you people. Cut off all foreign aid, withdraw from NATO. Make America for Americans. If you guys want military aid then pay us for the cost. Every time we launch a rocket it’s hundreds of thousands of dollars. You want our air craft carriers pay for the fuel and wear and tear on the ship. You want our nuclear subs then pay for the gas and maintenance costs. Let’s see how long you people can continue to pay for artist and poets to go to college when you have to pay your own way.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Our population could easily absorb an additional 900,000 per year. However we do not have to because most of those 75,000 are being turned away.

Oh really? How did you reach the conclusion we can EASILY do that?

Because in 1965, the number of live births was 1.9% of the population, and we easily absorbed them, although they needed lots of care at first. In 2017 the number of live births was only 1.2% of the population. With a population of 325.7 million, the difference between 1.2% and 1.9% is 0.7%. 0.7% of 325.7 million is 2.2 million. So if we added 2.2 million to our population it would be as if the birth rate was the same as in 1965. But to absorb the 75,000 you say are crashing the borders, that would only be 900,000 per year, which is less than half of the 2.2 million more we could absorb.

Why do you think that is an excuse for a poor literacy rate? Do you think of some segments of society as “uneducateable”?

It’s not an excuse. But when you have the population we have in the US there is bound to be some that choose to be uneducated.

Which segments of society are those? Since you think diversity is too blame, you should be able to name those “different” groups that are so stubborn as to refuse the chance for an education.

which is more evidence of how little Americans know of the outside world. You can further your own knowledge of universities in Denmark here:

I was responding to a posters contention about the literacy rate in the US as compared to the socialist country of Denmark. I am sure Denmark has fine schools, especially since you get free rides to University. I just wanted to mention that despite the government not giving us free rides we do pretty well here with our universities and colleges.

OK, that’s a lot more sensible than “I can’t even name a university in Denmark.”

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Wages are not set by the pope, the Catholic Church, or leftist liberals.

How wages are currently set and how wages should be set are different questions. The title of this thread indicates the second one.

YOU WILL NOT EARN A HIGH WAGE JUST BECAUSE YOU EXIST. And I would add you shouldn’t.

The chef you cited was earning a decent wage. Not a HIGH wage. And no one is arguing for HIGH wages just because one exists.

That is why the US GDP far exceeds any of your countries.

Uh, the fact that the US has more natural resources has nothing to do with it, eh?

 

[Dracarys]

Because in 1965, the number of live births was 1.9% of the population, and we easily absorbed them, although they needed lots of care at first. In 2017

So your comparing the births of Americans to additional foreign Invaders? Really? America is for Americans. Mexico is for Mexicans. The fact that you think we CAN absorb 900000 foreign Invaders does not mean we should. The illegal aliens commit crimes, use benefits, bring in diseases, use emergency room care, and take away jobs from US citizens, commit violence and destroy property in border states, and are responsible for many other problems. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

Which segments of society are those? Since you think diversity is too blame, you should be able to name those “different” groups that are so stubborn as to refuse the chance for an education.

Why are you such a racist to assume I mean any group? There are 328 million people in US. Some people for whatever reason choose not to learn to read, or do basic math. We both know these people exist, but I don’t know why they do or don’t do what they do. Go ask them if your that curious.

OK, that’s a lot more sensible than “I can’t even name a university in Denmark.”

Till I read your article I could not name a Denmark university. I doubt if most Americans can. Since the US has all the Ivy League schools why even consider Denmark unless your one of the socialist Danes getting a free education at taxpayer expense.

 

[Elf01]

The illegal aliens commit crimes, use benefits, bring in diseases, use emergency room care, and take away jobs from US citizens, commit violence and destroy property in border states, and are responsible for many other problems.

Apart from taking jobs citizens also do these things.

America is for Americans. Mexico is for Mexicans.

Says all that needs to be said about you.

 

[Dracarys]

How wages are currently set and how wages should be set are different questions. The title of this thread indicates the second

So where is your sympathy and consideration for business owners? The employer risked their capital and put in the time effort and energy to start a business. The owner knows the financial limits of his company, so he knows to the penny what he can spend on labor to support the lifestyle he wants and deserves. For some reason you think employers are there to serve employees. It’s the employees who serve at the will of their boss. If an employee does not like that he can start his own business. This is not hard to understand.

The chef you cited was earning a decent wage. Not a HIGH wage. And no one is arguing for HIGH wages just because one exists.

Well the poster from Denmark wants $17 dollars an hour. That is far more than the US current minimum wage. If employees don’t add $17 an hour of utility why should they receive it? You are trying to inject an artificial increase in wages that violates the market. Inflation and unemployment will result.

Uh, the fact that the US has more natural resources has nothing to do with it, eh?

There are many factors, but the fact that we use a capitalist system and don’t have as bad a welfare state is a big reason. China and Russia have plenty of land and resources, but till they went more the capitalist side they did not do very well.

 

[Dracarys]

Apart from taking jobs citizens also do these things.

Right, BUT FOR them entering illegaly they would NOT be doing these things in the US.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Because in 1965, the number of live births was 1.9% of the population, and we easily absorbed them, although they needed lots of care at first. In 2017

So your comparing the births of Americans to additional foreign Invaders?

Obviously I reject your characterization of them. But more importantly, yes. If the question is how many people our nation can absorb (which is all I claimed), it makes no difference if they are babies born to American citizens or newly arrived immigrants. Both of them will need education in our language. But the immigrants will take less time than a baby, and many come with skills already in hand.

Really? America is for Americans. Mexico is for Mexicans.

And when a Honduran is accepted as an immigrant and becomes a citizen, then he too is an American, and America is then for him too.

The fact that you think we CAN absorb 900000 foreign Invaders does not mean we should.

That is an ideological question, not a practical one. I already showed that on as purely practical level, we CAN. Of course it is not coming to that, since most of those 75,000 that came in one month will be turned away, so that whole scenario is just hypothetical and not an imminent emergency.

The illegal aliens commit crimes, use benefits, bring in diseases, use emergency room care, and take away jobs from US citizens, commit violence and destroy property in border states, and are responsible for many other problems.

Ah, there it comes. I was expecting it.

Which segments of society are those? Since you think diversity is too blame, you should be able to name those “different” groups that are so stubborn as to refuse the chance for an education.

Why are you such a racist to assume I mean any group?

For real evidence of racism, let me quote you:

Dracarys:

The illegal aliens commit crimes, use benefits, bring in diseases, use emergency room care, and take away jobs from US citizens, commit violence and destroy property in border states, and are responsible for many other problems.

I will remind you that it was you who first blamed our problems on our diversity.

 

[leonhardprintz]

I would consider access to transport a necessity. In very rural areas that may be a car. A good transport network could also work.

That is totally fair. Though I am not against people just in general moving to larger cities. It is far more efficient for people to live there than elsewhere.

Internet access?

I asked about this several days ago, and no one has been able to justify that within Catholic teaching.

I can’t post more than twice in a row, and there’s a limit. Also I don’t think this is a strong objection at all. Though it might be me being biased because almost all public services have been digitized in Denmark. At any rate, its very cheap provide internet access and a cheap computer to people, and it offers them many ways to seek out education and new skills.

Honestly I did kinda dangle it because I was curious to see how many here would object to it as an item of luxury, which I don’t consider it to be.

Living wage being conveniently undefined

Living wage has been defined and described multiple times in this thread, and even specific numbers have been proposed.

The US Homeland security department calls it a crisis. I use the term invasion. What do you call it?

I would call it a lot of people seeking asylum, and border trespassers. Which is what it is.

Are you really trying to compare literacy rates between Denmark and the US?

Yes, you’re quite behind when it comes to having a well read and cultured populace. In fact I’ve found a lot of anti-intellectualism coming from american citizens, and there’s a disdain for expertise.

I can’t even name a university in Denmark, but the US has Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc.

University of Copenhagen have the Niels Bohr Institute, you might not have known it but the fathers of the atomic bomb was taught there, and conversed often with Professor Niels Bohr. A favorite read of mine is the letter exchange between him and Albert Einstein, where Einstein would present a problem Einstein considered as resulting in contradiction in quantum mechanics, where Niels Bohr would answer back with a solution to Einstein’s conundrums.

I get it though, you’re not well read in European history or achievements. That’s not a good way to score a point about how well-read americans are supposed to be in comparison.

Considering the scandals of rich parents bribing those universities to get them through, even though the kids didn’t do any real studying, I wouldn’t exactly hold them up as laudible examples anymore either.

Your economy is a sliver of ours. Do you really want to go there?

Yes. Europe’s economy and industry is bigger than the US. Comparing Denmark to the US only works if you compare us to a state. Pick one, compare per capita, or compare Europe to the US if you wanna compare us.

 

[leonhardprintz]

Dracarys:

I’m happy about living here and I have no intentions of becoming a US citizen.

Of coarse not you are spoiled.

I can’t be insulted, please refrain from personal attacks. I haven’t accused your person of anything, and I expect to be treated with a similar amount of courtesy.

Leonhard:

If they can’t pay a living wage, they should close their business. It isn’t moral to offer anything but a living wage to adults.

And you wonder why I call you a socialist.

I honestly do. I simply make a moral observation. That it is injust to exploit workers like that. I defend it as well, and accept some natural consequences that will come of it, like higher prices for a steak at a steak house, and likely fewer restaurants.

That does not make a socialist. That’s not what being a socialist means. Socialism is a particular political philosophy regarding social ownership of the means of production. There’s a broad range of that, but that’s what they have in common.

I’m no more a socialist than you’re a communist.

These are mostly jobs taken by teenagers.

I have not said that teenagers need to be paid a living wage.

If an adult takes this job that is no fault of the owner.

I have also not said that Starbucks or McDonalds need to hire adults if they can hire teenagers.

Fortunately in the US anyone is free to start a business and pay market wages so long as it meets our archaic minimum wage rule.

As I’ve stated before I believe minimum wage rules are the wrong way to go about it.

 

[Dracarys]

the question is how many people our nation can absorb (which is all I claimed), it makes no difference if they are babies born to American citizens or newly arrived immigrant

So if a burglar breaks into your house you will give him the same benefits, food, and other things as your children.

I also reject the quantity of people we can accept it n this country.

And when a Honduran is accepted as an immigrant and becomes a citizen, then he too is an American, and America is then for him too

If he came in legally.

already showed that on as purely practical level, we CAN. Of

No you gave an opinion

will remind you that it was you who first blamed our problems on our diversity.

When did I say "diversity " is the issue. Everything I said about illegal aliens is true and common knowledge. Your assuming racism on my part. First I respect rule of law and the Invaders violated that. Also legal immigrents are vetted through immigration. We don’t know anything about someone hoping or cutting a fence. You really don’t see that!

 

[meltzerboy2]

Any wage higher than what I now earn is just.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

So where is your sympathy and consideration for business owners? The employer risked their capital and put in the time effort and energy to start a business.

What is needed is balance - not a position that favors employers in every way possible or one that favors employees in every way possible. For guidance I turn to the Catechism:
CCC 2409:

Even if it does not contradict the provisions of civil law, any form of unjustly taking and keeping the property of others is against the seventh commandment: thus, deliberate retention of goods lent or of objects lost; business fraud; paying unjust wages; forcing up prices by taking advantage of the ignorance or hardship of another.

The part in bold shows that the Church recognizes there is such a thing as an unjust wage. The Church does not define exactly what a just wage should be, and indeed it is impossible to say with any authority what the number should be. Like many other moral concepts in Catholic teaching, the details are left to the prudential judgement of the faithful. It definitely not determined solely by the market. In another place, the Catechism says this:

Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

This gives further evidence that setting wages solely on the basis of what the market will bear is not in agreement with justice.