What wage is just?

[Dracarys]

What is needed is balance - not a position that favors employers in every way possible or one that favors employees in every way possible. Fo

The market already gives BALANCE. If an employer pays to little all his good workers will leave.

This gives further evidence that setting wages solely on the basis of what the market will bear is not in agreement with justice.

Most countries already have minimum wage laws so regulation is already in force. I have seen nothing here that shows I am wrong. I would also like to see the church say something to support business owners. The Bible relates the story about the master who paid all his workers the same regardless of time worked. It is up to the owner to pay out what he wants with his own money. But within modern times we have minimum wage and other regulations on force so what you want has already been done.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

the question is how many people our nation can absorb (which is all I claimed), it makes no difference if they are babies born to American citizens or newly arrived immigrant

So if a burglar breaks into your house…

As I said before, the nation is not a house. The analogy is not applicable.

And when a Honduran is accepted as an immigrant and becomes a citizen, then he too is an American, and America is then for him too

If he came in legally.

Even if he came here illegally, and was accepted anyway (which we do frequently).

already showed that on as purely practical level, we CAN. Of

No you gave an opinion

…an opinion supported by data - the declining birth rate.

will remind you that it was you who first blamed our problems on our diversity.

When did I say "diversity " is the issue.

@leonhardprintz:

• 
  Its not unreasonable to consider the government paying for citizens to get a good education as an investment. Its certainly resulted in danes being in general a lot more well read than US citizens.

You:

Are you really trying to compare literacy rates between Denmark and the US? We have a much more diverse and larger population than yours.

Everything I said about illegal aliens is true and common knowledge.

Studies cited by the Cato Institute say otherwise. It is not so easy and common as you imagine.

Your assuming racism on my part.

You are way too quick to throw around that term.

First I respect rule of law and the Invaders violated that.

I respect language and proper meaning of words too much to use the word “invader” as casually as you do.

Also legal immigrents are vetted through immigration. We don’t know anything about someone hoping or cutting a fence.

Then vet the illegal immigrants too. I never said we shouldn’t try to catch illegal immigrants that want to escape detection. But the fact is a huge portion of the fence hoppers immediately seek out border agents and ask to be vetted and be considered legal.

 

[Dracarys]

can’t be insulted, please refrain from personal attacks. I haven’t accused your person of anything, and I expect to be treated with a similar amount of courtesy.

No insult intended. You got a free ride through college paid for by your government. I had to work night jobs and get a loan which I had to pay back in full plus interest. Your spoiled.

That it is injust to exploit workers like that. I defend it as well, and accept some natural consequences that will come of it, like higher prices for a steak at a steak house, and likely fewer restaurants.

No one is being exploited. Any worker at any time can go seek a job down the road.

It won’t be just higher prices at steakhouses. Poor people who rely on fast food will also pay $15 for a hamburger. Employers will hire less and rely on automation to replace labor that you want to be priced out of the market.

have not said that teenagers need to be paid a living wage.

I know, but many adults do jobs meant for kids. Do you want a two tier system depending on age?

As I’ve stated before I believe minimum wage rules are the wrong way to go about it.

I agree, but I think you say that as a practical matter, but condemn those who actually pay below your arbitrarily chosen “living wage.”

I am still waiting to hear any sign of consideration or appreciation of business owners from you. The risked their money and put in time and energy. It’s their company and it is morally right to enjoy what comes from all that

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

What is needed is balance - not a position that favors employers in every way possible or one that favors employees in every way possible.

The market already gives BALANCE. If an employer pays to little all his good workers will leave.

The Catechism speaks of a moral balance, not a market balance.

This gives further evidence that setting wages solely on the basis of what the market will bear is not in agreement with justice.

Most countries already have minimum wage laws so regulation is already in force. I have seen nothing here that shows I am wrong.

I take that to mean you agree that some form of just wage regulation is proper and your only concern is that the particular “minimum wage”, proposals, like $17/hr, are simply too high. If that is your position, then I am on your side, for that would be a reasonable position to take.

I would also like to see the church say something to support business owners.

The Church does support business owners when they are unjustly persecuted.

The Bible relates the story about the master who paid all his workers the same regardless of time worked. It is up to the owner to pay out what he wants with his own money.

That story is about the master who was more generous than necessary, since the “usual daily wage” was supposedly already a just wage for the time. The ones who worked all day would have been happy to receive that daily wage, until they saw others that did not work as hard as they did getting paid the same as them. No one in that story was represented as not making enough money to live.

 

[leonhardprintz]

No insult intended. … Your spoiled.

Aha, I see. Its spelled “You’re”

Now can we move beyond you insulting me, and proceed with your arguments?

Poor people who rely on fast food will also pay $15 for a hamburger.

That’s around what a hamburger costs in Denmark. The fact that poor people in the US subsists on fast food is an indication of a problem. I cook for around 2$ per day by buying produce, and eating little meat.

I know, but many adults do jobs meant for kids.

Not in my country.

Do you want a two tier system depending on age?

If you employ an adult, you’re morally obligated to pay a living wage. Its up to you if you employ adults or not.

I agree, but I think you say that as a practical matter, but condemn those who actually pay below your arbitrarily chosen “living wage.”

Don’t you remember the discussions about what utilities ought to be paid, and how much that would cost. Since I’ve spelled it out (even provided sources), my description cannot be arbitrary.

You might believe its wrong, and then you’re free to argue that its reasonable to expect people to live for less, and then argue how less.

But if I’ve provided reasons, and numbers, and references to support both, then my considerations aren’t arbitrary.

I am still waiting to hear any sign of consideration or appreciation of business owners from you. The risked their money and put in time and energy. It’s their company and it is morally right to enjoy what comes from all that

The same is true of the mafia, why should I praise them for what they do? Its only good to praise things that are laudible, and if a business is exploiting workers unjustly, what should I praise that company for? It would be morally wrong to honour them. You only do that with behaviour you wish you to encourage.

I do know some business owners who are doing very good. For instance McDonalds in Denmark actually settled with the unions, so the workers get appropriate compensations for their work, overtime pay, sick days, etc…

 

[Dracarys]

The Catechism speaks of a moral balance, not a market balance

Who are you or the pope to say what number is “moral”. Maybe many people get paid more than what is moral.

take that to mean you agree that some form of just wage regulation is proper and your only concern is that the particular “minimum wage”, proposals, like $17/hr, are simply too high. I

I can live with the current minimum wage, but there is constant pressure to push it up. I would like to see no government minimum wage. The Pope thinks the market doesn’t work. I disagree.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

The Catechism speaks of a moral balance, not a market balance

Who are you or the pope to say what number is “moral”.

It’s not me or the pope. It is the teaching of the Church that you and I both embrace.

Maybe many people get paid more than what is moral.

Maybe…

take that to mean you agree that some form of just wage regulation is proper and your only concern is that the particular “minimum wage”, proposals, like $17/hr, are simply too high. I

I can live with the current minimum wage…

I still don’t know if that means you can tolerate it (like “I can live with arthritis”) or if means you can accept it as just and right (and moral).

, but there is constant pressure to push it up. I would like to see no government minimum wage.

OK, that answers the question I asked above. It’s more like arthritis.

 

[vz71]

Living wage has been defined and described multiple times in this thread, and even specific numbers have been proposed.

As has been pointed out, it is not possible to define precisely because it is different for each individual and each unique situation.
In fact, there is still contention as to what is luxury and what is necessity.

You wish to claim business owners should close up shop if they don’t pay a wage that can vary so greatly?

 

[leonhardprintz]

You wish to claim business owners should close up shop if they don’t pay a wage that can vary so greatly?

The only businesses you have described, namely fastfood courts, haven’t closed up in Denmark. Again though, granted, we don’t have minimum wage laws (which I am against at any rate), but people typically aren’t paid below 15$ per hour.

 

[leonhardprintz]

It’s not me or the pope. It is the teaching of the Church that you and I both embrace.

Strictly speaking the Church hasn’t specified any particular number as moral. Leo XIIIth’s Rerum Novarum does however state they workers should be paid so they could live frugally. Which is to say, that if they pinch their pennies and act prudentially they can live without any major discomfort at that price.

At any rate its late in Denmark, and I have to get up early. Talk to you all later.

 

[Dracarys]

That’s around what a hamburger costs in Denmark. The fact that poor people in the US subsists on fast food is an indication of a problem. I cook for around 2$ per day by buying produce, and eating little meat.

Well that is you. In the US we don’t wear little berets as we eat bird food. “Where’s the beef”!

Not in my country.

Yes I forgot. Denmark the country that spends all it’s money on entitlements instead of paying is fair share for defense.

If you employ an adult, you’re morally obligated to pay a living wage. Its up to you if you employ adults or not.

In that case hiring adults would be foolish. Again employers aren’t charities.

But if I’ve provided reasons, and numbers, and references to support both, then my considerations aren’t arbitrary.

Of coarse your numbers aren’t only wrong, but unrealistic. I believe you even included internet service as necessary. People can and do live on less than $17 an hour so your numbers are false.

The same is true of the mafia, why should I praise them for what they do? Its only good to praise things that are laudible, and if a business is exploiting workers unjustly, what should I praise that company for? It would be morally wrong to honour them. You only do that with behaviour you wish you to encourage.

You have absolutely no idea how business works. Those evil greedy rich people you compare to gangsters legally opened a business. Some of them may have remortgaged their house, put in 80 hour work weeks with no compensation just to get their business going. Even after they are established they have to deal with competition, new laws, insurance issues, on and on. Employers earn every penny and they have a right to be in busines and recover profits regardless if you think they should not even exist. Employers only owe the pay that was agreed upon on the date of hire.

Talking to you at least strengthens the love I have for my country. I may visit Europe, but I could not live there.

 

[vz71]

The only businesses you have described, namely fastfood courts, haven’t closed up in Denmark.

You were claiming earlier that businesses should be closed if they cannot pay whatever it is you think a living wage is.
Do I need to quote the specific post?

 

[vz71]

The only businesses you have described, namely fastfood courts…

Any small business. Gyms, grocery stores, small offices… anywhere unskilled labor could work.

The fact that you can’t see past your stomach tells me you have not really thought the argument through.

 

[Dracarys]

still don’t know if that means you can tolerate it (like “I can live with arthritis”) or if means you can accept it as just and right (and moral).

It means I can afford to pay the going rate, but the government has no business involved in wage amount. Maybe I want to pay some of my guys more than minimum because they are good workers. Those I am about to fire should pay me to keep them around

 

[vz71]

Those I am about to fire should pay me to keep them around

And for undue stress.
Not just on the owner, but for everyone else.

 

[Padres1969]

When one side holds disproportional power (ie the employer) then any negotiation isn’t fair from the outset.

 

[vz71]

When one side holds disproportional power (ie the employer) then any negotiation isn’t fair from the outset.

Spoken like someone that has never been on the hiring side of that equation.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

still don’t know if that means you can tolerate it (like “I can live with arthritis”) or if means you can accept it as just and right (and moral).

It means I can afford to pay the going rate, but the government has no business involved in wage amount.

How do you reconcile that with CC 2425 that I quoted earlier?

 

[Padres1969]

Or someone who lives somewhere that even state mandated minimum wages wouldn’t cover half the cost of basic living.

 

[Socrates92]

How outrageous! You mean to say you don’t think there should be a universal wage ceiling set at your current income?