What wage is just?

[Dracarys]

How do you reconcile the fact that Rerum Novarum says the exact opposite?

How do you see that as the opposite? I think your reading things that aren’t there. I think the bishops make their writings intentionally vague so noone is offended. They want US money so everyone except the pope writes in a very vague manor. The Pope just writes using meaningless liberal sound bites. I must say that I am seriously considering switching to protestiism.

 

[Dracarys]

If fresh produce so rare in America that it carries a premium cost? Why else would you assume Danes are scratching a food existence just because they can eat cheaply

Huh? If hamburgers cost $14 they can’t eat cheaply. FYI we have farmers markets in the US where vegetables cost pennies. I go there because it’s fresh, but Walmart has all foods at reasonable prices. I don’t know what you are talking about. We don’t force our citizens to pay for other people’s college education so inflation and unemployment are not an issue.

 

[Dracarys]

And best of all, it all appears to be armchair quarterbacking from people that do not know how a business operates.

YES you said it well. Businesses provide jobs and studies have shown that the wealthy owners are very generious to charitys. The American system of capitalism works.

 

[_Ruby]

_Ruby:

If fresh produce so rare in America that it carries a premium cost? Why else would you assume Danes are scratching a food existence just because they can eat cheaply

Huh? If hamburgers cost $14 they can’t eat cheaply. FYI we have farmers markets in the US where vegetables cost pennies. I go there because it’s fresh, but Walmart has all foods at reasonable prices. I don’t know what you are talking about. We don’t force our citizens to pay for other people’s college education so inflation and unemployment are not an issue.

He said he ‘cooks for 1-2 dollars per day’. Cooking at home is cheaper than buying food from a restaurant. The price of buying food from a local green grocer is always going to be different to buying a hamburger from a fast food restaurant. The price of the burger in mcDonald’s has nothing to do with the cost of growing vegetables and buying them locally.

You jumped all over that comment to claim you had ‘lost respect’ for him because you concocted a fantasy about Danes living on ‘canned chicken and carrot mush’. This was purely your own projection based on assumption.

The Uk has a minimum wage of around 8 dollars an hour for teenagers and 10.5 dollars an hour for those over 25 years of age. The cost of a large Big Mac meal is 6.5 dollars. Buying food in a supermarket or local shop and cooking at home significantly cheaper.

 

[YourNameHere]

America is a great place to live if you have lots of money.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LilyM:

How do you reconcile the fact that Rerum Novarum says the exact opposite?

How do you see that as the opposite? I think your reading things that aren’t there. I think the bishops make their writings intentionally vague so noone is offended.

Your implication that our bishops are motivated more by money than by the teachings of Jesus Christ is offensive to the bishops and the Church.

I must say that I am seriously considering switching to protestiism.

If you came to the Catholic Church only to find confirmation of your preconceived political ideology, then you came for the wrong reasons.

LilyM:

How do you reconcile the fact that Rerum Novarum says the exact opposite?

I have said it many times neither the pope nor the church sets wages. IT IS THE FREE MARKET THAT DOES THIS.

And when you said that I reminded you that this thread is not about how the economy functions. It is about how the economy should function in the light of Catholic teaching.

 

[Padres1969]

I’d say it describes exactly what I said. Minimum standard of living is a living wage. Current minimum wage is not even that.

 

[vz71]

Minimum standard of living

Is undefined.
You can claim it means able to support a wife and six kids if you want. It does not make it so.

As it sits, with all of the various welfare programs available, minimum may well be sufficient to support a single individual living frugally.

 

[vz71]

America is a great place to live if you have lots of money.

Everywhere is nice if you have a lot.

What makes America great is being able to leverage your skills and make your own place in the world.

Few countries have that quality.

 

[leonhardprintz]

Leonhard:

The only businesses you have described, namely fastfood courts…

Any small business. Gyms, grocery stores, small offices… anywhere unskilled labor could work.

The fact that you can’t see past your stomach tells me you have not really thought the argument through.

As I said ‘The only businesses you’ve described’. The rest would also survive, because they do in Denmark. You’d need to mention a business that literally couldn’t stay afloat.

Those I am about to fire should pay me to keep them around

No one is arguing that you do not have the right to fire people.

Now that is interesting. I more or less assumed min wage laws were almost universal in the developed world.

I think its one solution, but I don’t think its the best one. What is best will depend on circumstances, and the local political environment.

Leonhard:

That’s around what a hamburger costs in Denmark. The fact that poor people in the US subsists on fast food is an indication of a problem. I cook for around 2$ per day by buying produce, and eating little meat.

I have lost a little respect for you. You claimed that the standard of living and such is much higher in Denmark than the US. Yet your eating canned chicken and carrot mush.

Honestly you’re being ridiculous now.

I don’t eat canned chicken or carrot mush. Last time I cooked Pad Thai, or at least my own version of it. Rice is just very, very cheap. So are potatoes. Its easy to get the calories you need. I have a highly diversified dinner. I eat healthily.

I’m just frugal and I tend to cook the dishes I cooked when I moved away from home.

I chose to reveal that price to you because seemed to believe that only McDonalds could provide poor people with affordable food? I honestly don’t understand how bad it might get in the US, but it would be a really weird situation if that was the case.

We don’t just eat for sustenance it is supposed to be a pleasure. There is no way you can do that in a country where hamburgers cost $15. If your worried I may get a little to pudgy eating some of this my gym membership is $10 a month.

I’m afraid a gym membership isn’t the way to get healthy. It starts with the diet. Only as little as 10% of weight control comes from exercise, the rest is from portion control.

And I agree eating is a pleasure. I think you’re reading my posts quite antagonistically, and nitpicking. You’ve ended up with a lot of weird stereotypes about me that says a lot more about you, than they do about me.

Yesterday, ironically, I was out with some friends on a gourmet italian restaurant. At least once a week I eat out with colleagues.

 

[vz71]

I reminded you that this thread is not about how the economy functions. It is about how the economy should function in the light of Catholic teaching.

So how should it?

You have to allow business to thrive, else there are no jobs.
You cannot have high taxes, lest people cease to work for themselves and instead rely on government.

Give us some word as to how exactly the economy would work under what you believe is Catholic teaching.

 

[leonhardprintz]

Leonhard:

I cook for around 2$ per day by buying produce, and eating little meat.

Well that is you. In the US we don’t wear little berets as we eat bird food. “Where’s the beef”!

I’m not a vegan, but for various reasons, such as health concerns and concerns about the environment I tend to either eat chicken meat or to minimize my meat consumption in general.

Its also cheaper.

Yes I forgot. Denmark the country that spends all it’s money on entitlements instead of paying is fair share for defense.

We’d still be able to afford those things if we doubled our defense spending. That would amount to us moving 2% of our gross domestic product into the military from other spendings. I challenged you to demonstrate what we’d have to give up, considering that 40% of the tax spendings are going to welfare. Some programs would have to tighten their belt and downsize. Such adjustments have always been done.

Denmark, and European countries in general, don’t make radical changes to the budget. As little as 1% of it gets shifted around year by year. We prefer stability.

In that case hiring adults would be foolish.

It works in Denmark.

Again employers aren’t charities.

You are not forced to hire people. Nor do you have to keep those that you’ve hired.

Leonhard:

You might believe its wrong, and then you’re free to argue that its reasonable to expect people to live for less, and then argue how less.

But if I’ve provided reasons, and numbers, and references to support both, then my considerations aren’t arbitrary.

Of coarse your numbers aren’t only wrong, but unrealistic. I believe you even included internet service as necessary. People can and do live on less than $17 an hour so your numbers are false.

I’m glad we’ve advanced the discussion so far. Agreed, the concept of a living wage isn’t arbitrary. Now we can discuss whether my estimations of cost of living are right or wrong. And there’s a lot to discuss there, and I’d definitely be willing to concede that people might be able to live more cheaply.

Internet access is a necessity. Increasingly so. A lot of job opportunities are lost if you don’t have access to it, as are your ability to acquire education, to access services, to register to vote.

Internet access is also cheap now, as are a computer capable of browsing the internet. This isn’t the nineties anymore. Its cheaper to have internet access than it is to have cable internet, the latter of which I consider a luxury.

 

[Padres1969]

Except it isn’t in many areas.

 

[vz71]

Except it isn’t in many areas.

And your solution is to hit all areas, not just those you speak of here?

 

[Dracarys]

Yet I see some contempt for workers expressed in this thread, as if they somehow have less than full human dignity or human rights,

Where do you see that? I could not get along without my best guys. I pay them comemsurently and I give them generious bonuses. My not so good guys get paid a lot less. I am about ready to clean house and fire some of the latter. What you Europeans don’t get is that good workers earn more as they provide better service. I am no different. If I provide good service to my customers they refer me and I get more business and thus more money. The cream rises to the top.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

I reminded you that this thread is not about how the economy functions. It is about how the economy should function in the light of Catholic teaching.

So how should it?

You have to allow business to thrive, else there are no jobs.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean you have to let businesses to anything they want.

You cannot have high taxes, lest people cease to work for themselves and instead rely on government.

Well, this thread is not about taxes, so I’m not going to follow you down that rabbit hole.

Give us some word as to how exactly the economy would work under what you believe is Catholic teaching.

I already did above. CCC 2409 and CCC 2425.

 

[Dracarys]

I’m not a vegan, but for various reasons, such as health concerns and concerns about the environment I tend to either eat chicken meat or to minimize my meat consumption in general.

Its also cheaper.

Sure with what you people pay you have to save where you can. I eat as recommended by the Paleo diet and I workout. I eat lots of delicious beef, bacon, pork ribs, you name it. I eat a combination of good old USA barbecue, Thai food, Indian cuisine, deli, etc. And I don’t pay $14 for a hamburger . That is ridicululis.

challenged you to demonstrate what we’d have to give up, considering that 40% of the tax spendings are going to welfare. Some programs would have to tighten their belt and downsize. Such adjustments have always been done.

Ok, then get very a call to President Trump and say you are opting out of NATO and will now forever more provide for your own defense. I promise we won’t miss you! Good luck .

It works in Denmark.

Thus the $13 hamburgers and 55% tax rate.

You are not forced to hire people. Nor do you have to keep those that you’ve hired.

No, but you want us to pay unskilled workers $17 an hour. That number would make every business owner I know laugh at you.

 

[Dracarys]

Internet access is a necessity. Increasingly so. A lot of job opportunities are lost if you don’t have access to it, as are your ability to acquire education, to access services, to register to vot

When I was young and broke I used free internet at the library. Your concept of a living wage is over the top and hopelessly outdated.

I know you are sensitive to perceived insults, but I must say you have very little creeativity . Americans who are unemployed like your earlier coal miner example can start their own businesses, seek employment in other industries, etc. Our current unemployment rate is at an all time low.

 

[leonhardprintz]

Sure with what you people pay you have to save where you can.

So your measurement of a good economy is whether most people in it can afford to eat out every day?

For your information, I can if I want to, and still have quite a good savings account. I just live frugally. I’ve always lived that way, and I see no reason to change that.

I eat as recommended by the Paleo diet and I workout. I eat lots of delicious beef, bacon, pork ribs, you name it. I eat a combination of good old USA barbecue, Thai food, Indian cuisine, deli, etc.

Good for you.

When I visit the US I’m planning on going to Florida first, and I’ll definitely be trying out the famous American slow cooked food.

Ok, then get very a call to President Trump and say you are opting out of NATO and will now forever more provide for your own defense

I think its more you who are interested in that happening. I prefer there being broad alliances across the world. Are you really sure you’d want to see the US military shrinking in size and relevance, and to have Europe being the one calling the shots when it comes to middle eastern conflicts?

Thus the $13 hamburgers and 55% tax rate.

We don’t have a 55% tax rate. You’ve been repeating this for a while, but we simply don’t.

No, but you want us to pay unskilled workers $17 an hour. That number would make every business owner I know laugh at you.

The only way I could see workers being legitimately paid less than 15$ (the actual amount would depend on the country) is if they’re offered stock options in the company they’re working for. Or they’re teenagers.

When I was young and broke I used free internet at the library.

You do realise that a library is about as socialist as it gets. The internet access, the books, the media rights are held by the government and distributed freely to those who are seeking it?

At any rate, again, internet access is very cheap. It would only be a few cents added to a living wage. There are no good arguments against it.

 

[Dracarys]

Yes, but that doesn’t mean you have to let businesses to anything they want.

They can’t do anything they want. In the US we have a minimum wage, thousands of pages of laws on employer/ employee relationships, and an army of lawyers ready to sue any employer who is perceived to sexually harass, discriminate on age sex, or sexual preference etc.

Well, this thread is not about taxes, so I’m not going to follow you down that rabbit hole

Why not? The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world. At least you Europeans have that right. We even have double taxation of dividends and company profits. I am outraged over that. Unfortunately a lot of that money goes to pay for defense of you Europeans. That is why I am a libertarian isolationist.