What wage is just?

[niceatheist]

Eric_Hyom:

Companies try to sell their products for the maximum they can get, which is not their true worth. How else could Bill Gates be the mega billionaire that he is?

So, who is forcing an individual or company to buy a product? No one.
The maximum they can get for a product is what someone is willing to pay. If a competitor comes along and offers a similar product for less money, the competition will drive the price down.
Bill Gates is wealthy not because he charges too much, but because he designed an operating system that helped others be more productive and sold shares of his company to people who saw the investment to be worthwhile. The cost of the product was worth the cost to those that purchased it. His employees had skills that made them valuable and they were paid well. Investors allowed the company to expand. That is how jobs are created.

Gates’ wealth was built at least in part on some pretty ethically dubious actions; including intentional disadvantaging of customers (the infamous “DOS ain’t done 'til Lotus won’t run”), theft of IP (the circumstances surrounding the obtaining of SeattleDOS and the ripping off of Stac’s disk compression technology come to mind), and the all-but-giving away of OEM licenses of DOS and windows to manufacturers, and the jacking up of those fees for manufacturers who chose to ship with other competing operating systems, which came to be known as the “Windows tax”. Indeed, Microsoft’s campaign against Netscape did deliver Microsoft with a monopoly on browsers on PCs for the better part of a decade.

So let’s not pretend that the vast wealth that Microsoft accumulated was all blood sweat and tears. Some of it was business acumen, and some of it was pretty nefarious campaigns against would-be competitors or suppliers that wouldn’t play ball.

 

[Peeps]

There’s a part of me that agrees with you that McDonald’s the way we know it now won’t be this way in 10 years.

McDonald’s started out as a “teen” hangout back in the 1960s, and also a place where young parents (Dad home from the Korean War, or even Viet Nam War) could go buy some hamburgers and fries (which are a pain to make at home!), and “soft drinks,” and give the kids a little treat. My dad used to bring home McDonald’s once a week, and my brother and I had to SPLIT that hamburger–it was considered too big for us!

When I went to high school, there was a McDonald’s right next to the school, and it was packed after school with literally hundreds of teens waiting in line. I would run to Macs to buy a hamburger before our play practices.

Then when I got married and had kids in the 1980s, McDonald’s was going wild with “Ronald McDonald” and the magical land where he and all his friends lived. Many of the McDonald’s built fun indoor playgrounds. At least once a week, I would walk the half mile to McDonald’s with my daughters, and after they ate their chix nuggets, they would play for a couple of hours in that playground while I sat in the little chairs that looked like mushrooms, keep an eye on my kids, and READ! They were usually so tired after a few hours that they would sleep like logs later!

When my kids were old enough to be involved with school and sporting activities, McDonald’s became a meeting place, or a place where Mom or Dad could run and pick up sacks of food for the team.

Now McDonald’s seems to be a meet and greet place for old folks. The one up the road from us has a Senior Breakfast Group that is there every morning reading the paper and talking over the problems of the world. And in the last few years before he died, my dad (in his 80s at the time) would drive up to the McDonald’s in his small town every night around 8:30 and meet about 40 other seniors who would eat a snack and talk talk talk about everything! When my dad died, that McDonald’s sent flowers to the funeral!

So what I’m saying here is that McDonald’s has “grown up” and “grown old.” It’s been through all the phases of a human life, and it’s probably time for it to start over and be re-born as something else.

 

[Theo520]

I do keep up with the news. Toy factories, sports shoe factories, etc have all had reports of terrible wages and working conditions within the past 10 years. It’s also been reported that American chocolate companies have obtained their cocoa from places that use actual slaves in their harvests. It’s naive to assume that working conditions are good everywhere in the world even when the employer is from a first world country.

You are conflating buying goods from a local producer (normal international trade) with factories run by foreign companies. This is a common error by activists pushing this agenda.

 

[Theo520]

My sister is a diplomat in one very popular areas for western factories in Asia. The stories are horrible.

I’ve seen a few first hand.

Yes they are sought after because they are poor so the likelihood that the company will continue is high. But the conditions are not nice at all. Many have to work second jobs. Many parents are separated from their children as they cannot afford rent closeby.

As I said. I know lots about this particular region.

So your first hand experience is limited.

It’s irrational of you to expect foreign worker conditions to match present day worker conditions in the US.

The US didn’t have OSHA until 1970 and even since it as been an evolution to our present state. Each country must go through their own similar evolution of regulation and improvement of their normative worker conditions and enforcement of safe workplace practices. Foreign employers actually accelerate the process I believe.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

You are conflating buying goods from a local producer (normal international trade) with factories run by foreign companies. This is a common error by activists pushing this agenda.

The chocolate was an example of an American company buying from a foreign producer, yes. But the factories that made the news were owned by the actual American company.

 

[ewohdrol]

It’s irrational of you to expect foreign worker conditions to match present day worker conditions in the US.

I don’t expect it to match the US. Where did I say that?

I said it should allow a viable wage in that country. Workers should be able to work full time and afford rent and food.

 

[RuthAnne]

I said it should allow a viable wage in that country. Workers should be able to work full time and afford rent and food.

Well then. Why don’t we just put the whole world under one flag so we can dictate how everyone lives?

 

[ewohdrol]

Nope didn’t say that either.

What I am saying is large corporations shouldn’t take advantage of counties that are poor and desperate to take anything thrown at them. They have a moral responsibility to act with integrity especially when they are dealing with the less fortunate.
I honestly can’t believe this is an argument on a catholic forum.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

What I am saying is large corporations shouldn’t take advantage of countires that are poor and desperate to take anything thrown at them. They have a moral responsibility to act with integrity especially when they are dealing with the less fortunate.
I honestly can’t believe this is an argument on a catholic forum.

What kills me is these multi-billion dollar American companies could pay a decent wage for the standards of these countries and STILL save a TON of money over employing people here in the U.S. it’s WORSE than greedy, it’s downright predatory.

 

[LilyM]

ewohdrol:

I said it should allow a viable wage in that country. Workers should be able to work full time and afford rent and food.

Well then. Why don’t we just put the whole world under one flag so we can dictate how everyone lives?

Plenty of countries have managed to do it - without the sky falling in or their economies or small business sectors collapsing. Or even any notable increase in unemployment or homelessness. AND without needing the international community to regulate it.

Why on earth should the US be so utterly incapable of doing what other countries can do - finding a wage level that strikes something approximating an acceptable balance between the competing considerations of businesses and individual workers and making it law?

 

[1cthlctrth]

Bushum: you have many intelligent, well thought out comments in this section.
I’d like to add that the “evil, rich business owners” are the ones who provide jobs. I’ve never gotten a job from a poor person. If expenses are too high for a business, the business will either cease to exist, or they’ll find ways to cut expenses, like replacing people with robots.

 

[RuthAnne]

I get it. It’s greedy to want to keep the money that you have earned but it’s not greedy to want to take it from the person who earned it.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[1cthlctrth]

Ultimately, it’s the consumer who pays when a business faces rising costs.

 

[RuthAnne]

I get it. It’s greedy to keep the money that you’ve earned but it’s not greedy to take it from the person who earned it.

Makes perfect sense to me …

 

[1cthlctrth]

Great point, RuthAnne! Many small business owners spend tons of their own time and money to build the business up.

 

[niceatheist]

And if they have employees, don’t those employees also work to build the business up?

 

[RuthAnne]

Yes and they get paid to do it.

 

[LilyM]

Great point, RuthAnne! Many small business owners spend tons of their own time and money to build the business up.

Starting a business is in many ways a little bit of a gamble - the owner is effectively taking something of a bet that there will be enough demand for whatever goods or services that the profits will outweigh the costs. And that is something that cannot be predicted with 100% accuracy. AND owner chooses to make the bet, not the employee.

And - in this gamble they are staking the livelihoods and futures of their employees as much as their own on the success of their business. And they are often relying on the graft and talent of those employees as much as on their own to keep the business going and growing.

The fact that a business owner may stake a lot doesn’t mean they are justified in paying workers a wage that, even when those workers are putting in full-time hours, doesn’t come close to enabling them to keep themselves properly fed, housed and clothed.

 

[1cthlctrth]

Minimum wage jobs are meant for high school and college kids. Most will not be able or qualified to find high-wage jobs. Higher wages are available to good workers who earn promotions or who find better jobs.
Small businesses are what largely fuels our great country. Incentive is needed to want to create a small business. The owners who take the risk deserve the reward.

 

[LilyM]

Minimum wage jobs are meant for high school and college kids. Most will not be able or qualified to find high-wage jobs. Higher wages are available to good workers who earn promotions or who find better jobs.
Small businesses are what largely fuels our great country. Incentive is needed to want to create a small business. The owners who take the risk deserve the reward.

If you own a small business which fails, in the current economic climate your employees are probably every bit as likely to lose their houses and cars as you are. That is a plenty big risk, which frankly deserves a whole lot more than treating them as if they somehow are not worthy of earning enough from full time work to provide for their basic needs.

Of course some jobs are mostly geared for students and the like. Who have to have either formal education or sufficient work experience if they are to progress. Paying them a pittance doesn’t help either way - someone who earns so little that they need to work long hours and/or do less study is going to find it hard to achieve. And working in a small business where there is usually little chance for career progression, and doesn’t impress on a resume, also doesn’t make it easy to move on to bigger and better things