What was the first church?

[elvisman]

In reading in the NT it does seem that what may be called pre-"C"hurch, as in a large, formal structure with what we know as “mass” with all its frmalities, etc did not exist in
those 1st Century Christian "c"hurches. From my reading in the NT they seemed to have practiced a very simple form of congregating.
No involved formal procedures like we see in the mass in the (Big C) Church some many years later and uo until our modern times.

Am I incorrect in believing that those first few generations of Christians did not have a list of formal prayers, no holy water, no veneration of the Mother Mary, no formalities of standing and kneeling, no kissing of icons as many of us do in Orthodoxy?

No my reading of the first Christian church in Acts tends to make me think you could be correct. The ECFs may have added some things.

People who espouse the belief that the Church should have somehow remained identical to the 1st century Church are generally ignorant of two things:
History and Scripture.

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The Church of today is 2000 years older than the 1st century Church and has thus, grown from the acorn to the oak – the mustard seed to the large mustard plant (Mark 4:30-32, Luke 13:18-21).

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As for the doctrines taught by Christ’s Church - they are the same today as they were then – but have had to be proclaimed ate different times throughout the centuries because of heresies, renegade teachings and protest against them.
For reasons similar to some of the rubbish I read on these forums . . .

 

[CMatt25]

**I ****never **called Jesus a lie or a cop-out. I called your statements a cop- out because you pollute them with relativism. You must remember that truth is not up for a vote
Something is not true because we believe it to be true – we believe it because it is true.

---

Secondly, your statement – “Less important is where they find him”** is complete** nonsense**. Jesus equated the Church with his very self (Acts 9:4-5, *“Saul, Saul – why are you persecuting ME?”*****). How can you make the claim that it’s not important where to find him? That is a completely ****ignorant **and ludicrous statement.

---

**Your watered-down version of Catholicism is evidence that you know ***not *your faith and that you twist the Scriptures to your own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16). Unfortunately – would-be Catholics like yourself lead others down the path to destruction with your ignorance.

Elvis, I am professing our Lord, so my statements are not a lie. Christ is everywhere. Where 2 are gathered He is in our midst, Elvis. Matthew 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. But again thank you for interpreting the judgment of my destruction. But wow you should be receiving lots of blessings Elvis based on how many times I have asked God to bless you today in my posts. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Your watered-down version of Catholicism is evidence that you know not your faith and that you twist the Scriptures to your own destruction. Unfortunately would-be Catholics like yourself lead others down the path to destruction with your ignorance.

Elvis, I was about to thank you for finally agreeing with our Church that I am Catholic considering you are “hard core” but then I saw you went back to resorting a “would be” in your next sentence.

Anyway I know my faith along the way of my lifelong journey with Him.

With regards to my “ignorance” someone said we worship Mary and statues. I corrected that. If someone asks whether the CC tells ppl they can not approach Jesus at the altar table, I would tell them yes it does. And I could given them whole interpretation about discerning and about the RP and transubstantiation, the belief they must be in full communion with the CC to receive. But if someone asks if I believe closed Communion is Biblical, no, along with some others within the body of Christ I happen to not believe it is. So I state my belief and why. Even “hard core” does not negate the possibility of sin or being wrong though. It’s fine if we don’t agree. You and I wouldn’t be the first Catholics to not.

Once again, God bless you Elvis as you believe and peace upon you on your journey.

 

[Vasian]

**People who espouse the belief that the Church should have somehow remained identical **to the 1st century Church

Who stated such a thing herein, or are you just throwing that in for fun?

are generally ignorant of two things:
History and Scripture.

 

[Ignatius]

I am in need of some dates and I was hoping some people on here might have them handy or be able to give me links where I can find them.

Again, I would really prefer actual historical data that has no tradition or opinions in it.
I am just hoping to get a better understanding of when everything really began.

Here ya’ go:
Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:

If you are of the Catholic faith, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.
If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.
If you are Anabaptist, your religion was founded by Nicholas Storch and Thomas Munzer in Germany in 1521.
If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you belong to the Mennonites, your church was started in 1536 by Menno Simons in Switzerland.
If you are a Calvinist, Jon Calvin started your belief system in 1555 in Switzerland.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.
If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.
If you are Dutch Reformed, Michaelis Jones founded your church in New York in 1628.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.
If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek around 1836.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.
If you are Seventh Day Adventist, your religion was founded by Ellen Whitein 1844 in Washington, New Hampshire.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If you’re Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the Topeka, Kansas in 1901 by Charles F. Parkham
If you are Assemblies of God your church grew out of Pentecostalism in 1914 in Hot Springs, Az.
If you are a member of Four-square Gospel, your church was started by Aimee Semple McPherson in L.A. in 1917.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith founded your church in Costa Mesa, Ca, 1965
If your organization is “evangelical nondenominational Christian” your group started in the 1970s by protestant evangelists.

Grace and peace be with you.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[Roblox84]

Here ya’ go:
Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:

If you are of the Catholic faith, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.
If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.
If you are Anabaptist, your religion was founded by Nicholas Storch and Thomas Munzer in Germany in 1521.
If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you belong to the Mennonites, your church was started in 1536 by Menno Simons in Switzerland.
If you are a Calvinist, Jon Calvin started your belief system in 1555 in Switzerland.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.
If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.
If you are Dutch Reformed, Michaelis Jones founded your church in New York in 1628.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.
If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek around 1836.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.
If you are Seventh Day Adventist, your religion was founded by Ellen Whitein 1844 in Washington, New Hampshire.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If you’re Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the Topeka, Kansas in 1901 by Charles F. Parkham
If you are Assemblies of God your church grew out of Pentecostalism in 1914 in Hot Springs, Az.
If you are a member of Four-square Gospel, your church was started by Aimee Semple McPherson in L.A. in 1917.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Calvary Chapel, Chuck Smith founded your church in Costa Mesa, Ca, 1965
If your organization is “evangelical nondenominational Christian” your group started in the 1970s by protestant evangelists.

Grace and peace be with you.

Your servant in Christ.

Looking at those dates you would think that a person would go with the older religions to be sure that what they are learning today was taught to people thousands of years ago. But that’s just my opinion.

 

[elvisman]

Elvis, I am professing our Lord, so my statements are not a lie. Christ is everywhere. Where 2 are gathered He is in our midst, Elvis. Matthew 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. But again thank you for interpreting the judgment of my destruction. But wow you should be receiving lots of blessings Elvis based on how many times I have asked God to bless you today in my posts. Peace.

**When people “profess the Lord” on their own terms - and not his - it does them no good (Matt. 7:21-23).

 

[elvisman]

Who stated such a thing herein, or are you just throwing that in for fun?

How so, as far as scripture? What ignorance do some have as far as the scriptures and the very early (first congregations) Christians?

History, I do understand as time passes, as societies, cultures, and leadership all have had an influence over such a huge movement such as Christianity.

A question one may pose however is, has it, and is it all necessary?

Keep in mind that I attend a Russian Orthodox Church. I’m not so much against any of it but am interested in hearing answers to my questions. Answers, I hope can be given in the spirit of good discussion rather than anyone answering from a position of believing they have to defend.

Fair enough.

**Most people who reject or have a problem with Church traditions - whether they be Sacred, apostolic Traditions or ones that came later (the former being the binding ones) - don’t understand that the Church had to grow. It is a living, breating Body that will grow over time - with traditions that are passed down.

**It must also be understood the the Church - not the Bible - is called the pillar and bulwark (foundation) of truth." The Bible came from the Church - not the other way around. the church - not the Bible is the supreme Authority on earth (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23). **

For Christians to demand that all of our beliefs be explicitly written down in Scripture is to display ignorance of Christianity because there are many things that are not explicitly written down that various denominations adhere to - to name a few:
Altar Calls
The Holy Trinity
Denying Baptism to infants

**These same people will reject the practices and teachings of the Early Church Fathers because their letters are not coinsidered to be inspired Scripture - and because they agree with the Catholic Church instead of the various Protestant sects. **
Some of those beliefs include:
The Mass
The Real Presence in the Eucharist
Wittholding Communion for people who are not in communion with the Church
Infant Baptism
Confessing your sins to a priest

**When would-be Catholics like CMatt25 profess their disdain for Catholic doctrines, they expose themselves by their fruits. **

 

[Roblox84]

Fair enough.

**Most people who reject **or have a problem with Church traditions - *whether they be Sacred, apostolic Traditions or ones that came later (the former *being the binding ones) - don’t understand that the Church had to grow. It is a living, breating Body that will grow over time - with traditions that are passed down.

It must also be understood the the Church - not the Bible - is called the pillar and bulwark (foundation) of truth." The Bible came from the Church - not the other way around. the church - not the Bible is the supreme Authority on earth (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).

**For Christians to demand that all of our beliefs be explicitly **written down in Scripture is to display ignorance of Christianity because there are many things that are not explicitly written down that various denominations adhere to - to name a few:
Altar Calls
The Holy Trinity
Denying Baptism to infants

These same people will reject the practices and teachings of the Early Church Fathers because their letters are not coinsidered to be inspired Scripture - and because they agree with the Catholic Church instead of the various Protestant sects.
Some of those beliefs include:
The Mass
The Real Presence in the Eucharist
Wittholding Communion for people who are not in communion with the Church
Infant Baptism
Confessing your sins to a priest

When would-be Catholics like CMatt25 profess their disdain for Catholic doctrines, they expose themselves by their fruits.

Yeah, there are passages in the bible about the church growing. They were posted somewhere on a thread. I can’t find them now, but do you have them handy?

Man i’ll feel stupid if those passages are on one of my own threads.

 

[eucharisteo]

Looking at those dates you would think that a person would go with the older religions to be sure that what they are learning today was taught to people thousands of years ago. But that’s just my opinion.

If someone believes that all the churches in existence to day are based on man’s philosophy then he/she might be inclined to lean towards the “Church Restoration movement”: Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, Christian Church. That’s what I leaned towards at one point.

 

[CMatt25]

**When people *“profess the Lord” ***on their own terms - and not his - it does them no good (Matt. 7:21-23).

Elvis, I don’t want us to derail this thread by making it about you and me any longer so I won’t be discussing your terms any longer here. I would only suggest you look at 18 chapters later as examples of what He wants us to do. So He knows us when we say Lord, Lord. God bless you Elvis and peace.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Uhhh – NO. That’s a cop-out.
You should know NOW what is right – what is “ok”.

We have the Church - the finalAuthority on earth (Matt. 16:19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23) to remind us of what is right and wrong.

We have the Scriptures – the inerrant written word of God to tell us what is right and what is wrong:

John 14:18
“I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.”

John 16:13
“But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.”

We don’t have to wait until we die and we don’t have to rely purely on a blind faith to know what is right:

The only reason I keep responding to your posts is not to argue but to try to stop you from making falseclaims and misrepresenting the Church – of which you claim to be a part. This shouldn’t be something you take lightly - you should be terrified about misleading people into a lie (Matt. 18:6, 2 Pet. 2:1)

“We will know what is “ok” when He comes again”, indeed . . .

Non-catholics that come to this forum to learn about the catholic church get a twisted view from cmatt25 which does no justice to this forum. In my view he needs to remove catholic from his name or get banned! Until then i will no longer read any of his posts!

Matthew

 

[elvisman]

Non-catholics that come to this forum to learn about the catholic church get a twisted view from cmatt25 which does no justice to this forum. In my view he needs to remove catholic from his name or get banned! Until then i will no longer read any of his posts!

Matthew

Agreed.

I get tired of renegade would-be Catholics polluting the minds of less-catechized Catholics who are hungry to learn about their faith with their own brand of skewed Catholicism.

Although I don’t think he should be banned for this - I think he and others like him should be exposed at every turn so that less-catechized Catholics won’t be misled by their drivvle.

 

[CMatt25]

Non-catholics that come to this forum to learn about the catholic church get a twisted view from cmatt25 which does no justice to this forum. In my view he needs to remove catholic from his name or get banned! Until then i will no longer read any of his posts!

Matthew

Sorry everyone but this poster was not Elvis and I feel my character is being attacked by this post. Banned for being a baptized, catechized, confirmed Catholic, a Catholic in the eyes of the Church, for discussing his belief and faith on the Non-Catholic Religions forum?

 

[eucharisteo]

**Elvis, I could play your game all day but perhaps you add far too much to what is required to follow His will for righteousness.

There is belief. There is love**. There is…

…

Elvis, belief, love, and expressing your love in ways such as these. God’s will is pretty simple isn’t it when you put your faith in Him and not the rules of men? God bless you on your journey my brother in Christ.

CMatt25,
This last statement sounds very Protestant. To say that God’s will is simple is like saying he’s simple. And for you to take authority in your own hands to say the we need only place our “faith in Him and not the rules of men” is heresy. The rules of any man, yes. But Christ gave the Keys to Peter and the authority lies with the bishops who have authority to bind and lose. These are Protestant ideas that have crept in the Catholic Church, but are not orthodox Catholic teaching.

PAX

 

[traillius]

All these people who started new churches are trying to re-invent the wheel. " back to basics" is a fallacy. Time moves forward only. The original church that existed as one until 1054 is the only one directly founded by Jesus. Any other church is founded by humans based on their own interpretation of scripture, or on their problems with catholic teaching. This is not a denigration of Catholic Faith, and cannot be, since the original church is the one to whom Jesus entrusted his teachings and authority. Any other church, while it may have some truth, doesn’t have all the truth. I don’t believe only catholics are going to heaven, or even that all people who say they are catholic will be there. But The Catholic Church is the Only Church that has existed all the way back to Jesus.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

All these people who started new churches are trying to re-invent the wheel. " back to basics" is a fallacy. Time moves forward only. The original church that existed as one until 1054 is the only one directly founded by Jesus. Any other church is founded by humans based on their own interpretation of scripture, or on their problems with catholic teaching. This is not a denigration of Catholic Faith, and cannot be, since the original church is the one to whom Jesus entrusted his teachings and authority. Any other church, while it may have some truth, doesn’t have all the truth. I don’t believe only catholics are going to heaven, or even that all people who say they are catholic will be there. But The Catholic Church is the Only Church that has existed all the way back to Jesus.

That pretty much sums it up.
Good post and thanks…

Matthew

 

[BrianH]

All these people who started new churches are trying to re-invent the wheel. " back to basics" is a fallacy. Time moves forward only. The original church that existed as one until 1054 is the only one directly founded by Jesus. Any other church is founded by humans based on their own interpretation of scripture, or on their problems with catholic teaching. This is not a denigration of Catholic Faith, and cannot be, since the original church is the one to whom Jesus entrusted his teachings and authority. Any other church, while it may have some truth, doesn’t have all the truth. I don’t believe only catholics are going to heaven, or even that all people who say they are catholic will be there. But The Catholic Church is the Only Church that has existed all the way back to Jesus.

Oriental Orthodox?
Assyrian Church of the East?
Eastern Orthodox?
Why you and not them?

 

[eucharisteo]

Oriental Orthodox?
Assyrian Church of the East?
Eastern Orthodox?
Why you and not them?

Only one Church existed and they were in communion in the beginning. Those that grew separate were in essence one holy catholic and apostolic church.

 

[Roblox84]

All these people who started new churches are trying to re-invent the wheel. " back to basics" is a fallacy. Time moves forward only. The original church that existed as one until 1054 is the only one directly founded by Jesus. Any other church is founded by humans based on their own interpretation of scripture, or on their problems with catholic teaching. This is not a denigration of Catholic Faith, and cannot be, since the original church is the one to whom Jesus entrusted his teachings and authority. Any other church, while it may have some truth, doesn’t have all the truth. I don’t believe only catholics are going to heaven, or even that all people who say they are catholic will be there. But The Catholic Church is the Only Church that has existed all the way back to Jesus.

That’s what I don’t understand. How can a person just ignore the Churches growth over time. And how can people just “travel” back in time and say that Christ didn’t even form the Church but instead he gave us the bible. Or that all those teachings before the bible are eliminated because the bible came out?