What was the Inquisition?

[Redbandito]

On the contrary, I would wager there were a few people around here that wouldn’t mind seeing me burned at the stake.

Don’t project your feelings on to us.

 

[mlchance]

I said it before and I’ll say it again. The numbers I stated were from the sources I stated. I did not make them up.

A lie is a lie no matter what. You don’t get a free pass just because you’re repeating someone else’s falsehoods.

What’s more, it is painfully obvious that you continue to condemn that which you don’t understand, as is demonstrated by this post here.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Libertas]

I already stated that I concede the numbers may not be accurate but I did not make them up.I stated my sources.

No one here is claiming YOU made the numbers up, but the authors of the sources did.
The numbers are complete garbage, and are wildly spun fairy tales. It is a shame you buy into it.

 

[Redbandito]

Well I don’t know of anyone personally with the credentials of inquisition historian.
I guess you don’t either.
So we are at an impasse about the actual numbers of people tortured or killed.
That is fair enough for me.
I really don’t feel like going to the library and getting a bunch of books to support my case and then being accused of spreading anti Catholic lies from anti Catholic sources.

A book by a true historian, not apologist, presenting another perspective would suffice. However, you won’t do that, because you are perfectly fine using this as ammo against the Church. Sad indeed.

 

[rr1213]

I don’t think anyone has argued, on this thread, that people should be put to death strictly for not conforming to certain religious beliefs.

It is more the matter of rationalizing the issue and failing to condemn the practice when given the opportunity, although some people have done so in the last few posts above.

 

[newbie1234]

Yeah, and the sources you stated were garbage. Bad books are as poisonous to the mind as cyanide is to the body Seriously Newbie, did you come here to show off? Did you come here to convert some of us Catholics? Or did you come here for rational discussion and dialogue? If it is the latter, please pay attention to the fact that even the Protestants in here state you have no credibility with such silly “facts.”

From my limited investigation, I found no conflicting numbers from the sources I stated.
That means whatever I learned, I stated in my post.
The only conflicting numbers came from Catholics and Catholics sources on this website.
So, if the church says it was only a few thousand killed in
six hundred years. Who am I to argue? I wasn’t there.
As you pointed out, the books I referenced were all anti Catholic propaganda. Even Halleys Bible Handbook is anti catholic propaganda.
I guess I will have to accept your history of the event.
Could you suggest a book that I could buy that would accurately tell the story?

 

[Redbandito]

If you would like me to concede the number tortured and killed. I will. Because the actual number doesn’t matter. The truth is the Holy Roman Catholic Church TORTURED AND KILLED PEOPLE FOR OVER SIX HUNDRED YEARS.
The numbers don’t matter.
Take a look at the torture devices.
The fact is Christians who didn’t follow mother church’s teachings were deemed heretics.
Then they were tortured in ways that can’t even be described in decent conversation.
If they didn’t aquiess(sp) they were burned at the stake or killed some other way.
And this went on for over 600 years.
Own up to it.

The irony is that people actually preferred to receive punishment from the Church rather than from the state. Why would people prefer such torture I wonder?

 

[rr1213]

If you asked anyone on here, outside of the context of this topic, whether they believe we should put heretics to death, I am fairly certain they would say no. However, these events must be put in their historical context. What did Jews do to heretics and blasphemers?

Why does it have to be asked outside of this topic? It is easy to condemn, or to support, something in theory or concept…harder to do so when faced with actual, real situations. The entire concept of an Inquisition, whether run by the State or the Church (since there seems to be some dispute over exactly who did what according to whose dictates) is repugnant to religious liberty. I don’t care if it is the Catholics who are doing it, or the Protestants or, what apparently is happening in many places around the world now, the Moslems. Sure, this is a modern, especially American and Protestant, view of the matter but so what? I’m a modern American Protestant…at least for the time being.

 

[Redbandito]

From my limited investigation, I found no conflicting numbers from the sources I stated.
That means whatever I learned, I stated in my post.
The only conflicting numbers came from Catholics and Catholics sources on this website.
So, if the church says it was only a few thousand killed in
six hundred years. Who am I to argue? I wasn’t there.
As you pointed out, the books I referenced were all anti Catholic propaganda. Even Halleys Bible Handbook is anti catholic propaganda.
I guess I will have to accept your history of the event.
Could you suggest a book that I could buy that would accurately tell the story?

Edward Peters is an actual historian, not an apologist. He wrote the book “Inquisition.” Look it up on amazon.com. It should help clear up a few things.

 

[Redbandito]

Why does it have to be asked outside of this topic? It is easy to condemn, or to support, something in theory or concept…harder to do so when faced with actual, real situations. The entire concept of an Inquisition, whether run by the State or the Church (since there seems to be some dispute over exactly who did what according to whose dictates) is repugnant to religious liberty. I don’t care if it is the Catholics who are doing it, or the Protestants or, what apparently is happening in many places around the world now, the Moslems. Sure, this is a modern, especially American and Protestant, view of the matter but so what? I’m a modern American Protestant…at least for the time being.

This response is precisely why. Because some Protestants approach this topic from the perspective you have, as if it is a given. Thus, any seeming admission to complicity automatically confirms to the Fundamentalist that their worst suspicions are true. And from the perspecitve of the Catholic, to state that killing people for their beliefs is wrong, does not demonize the Catholic Church.

 

[rr1213]

This response is precisely why. Because some Protestants approach this topic from the perspective you have, as if it is a given. Thus, any seeming admission to complicity automatically confirms to the Fundamentalist that their worst suspicions are true. And from the perspecitve of the Catholic, to state that killing people for their beliefs is wrong, does not demonize the Catholic Church.

But we live in a real world, not a world of fantasy. The Inquisition happened, it was not a good thing. Persecution of Catholics by the Anglican Church happened, again it was not a good thing. Americans, and others, enslaved black people and treated Native Americans shamefully The English oppressed the Irish. The Germans started the Second World War. History is history. The basic facts are (usually) not controverted, although the meaning and interpretation of those facts is often controverted and reinterpreted by every new generation of historians. I am an American of the South as well as someone from the Anglican Tradition and I just admitted to a number of very serious mistakes and sins on the part of my heritage. Catholics should be able to do the same about the Inquisition instead of being so darn defensive about it.

 

[Contarini]

Well I don’t know of anyone personally with the credentials of inquisition historian.
I guess you don’t either.

I didn’t say you had to know them personally! I have read a number of books on medieval history, by people writing from a lot of different perspectives.

So we are at an impasse about the actual numbers of people tortured or killed.
That is fair enough for me.
I really don’t feel like going to the library and getting a bunch of books to support my case and then being accused of spreading anti Catholic lies from anti Catholic sources.

That’s fine–no one said you had to be an expert. But I’m enough of an expert to tell you that the figures you have cited are wildly unlikely at best and that your sources are unreliable. I am not enough of an expert to know what the accurate figures are (for all the Inquisitions put together). But I am confident that it’s in the thousands, not millions.

As you have repeatedly said, that really isn’t the most pertinent point. I fear that after the mass atrocities of the last century it’s hard for us to think of atrocities as serious unless they involve millions.

Edwin

 

[newbie1234]

Edward Peters is an actual historian, not an apologist. He wrote the book “Inquisition.” Look it up on amazon.com. It should help clear up a few things.

I did go to Amazon. However after reading all the reviews of the book, the reviewers are split 8 to 4 on whether the author is unbiased in his writing. Some say he is very accurate. Others say he whitewashed and downplayed the severity of the issue.
Any other suggestions.
Seems like protestants inflate the atrocities and catholics deflate same.
Maybe truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Mannyfit75]

From my limited investigation, I found no conflicting numbers from the sources I stated.
That means whatever I learned, I stated in my post.
The only conflicting numbers came from Catholics and Catholics sources on this website.
So, if the church says it was only a few thousand killed in
six hundred years. Who am I to argue? I wasn’t there.
As you pointed out, the books I referenced were all anti Catholic propaganda. Even Halleys Bible Handbook is anti catholic propaganda.
I guess I will have to accept your history of the event.
Could you suggest a book that I could buy that would accurately tell the story?

Catholic Sources?

Did I not cite a Non-Catholic Source:

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html Inquistion Jewish Virtual Library. There numbers does not even equal 50 million which are you are truly mislead.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto-da-fes were held in Toledo, **467 people **were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto-da-fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.

The number of victims in Spain alone is estimated at 39,912, many of whom were burned alive.

At most 30,000 were killed NO WHERE NEAR the 50 MILLION who were persecuted. So your sources Newbie is deeply in question or reliable.

I did not use Catholic sources I used Jewish sources. If you want to take a look just go to the links I provided.

jewishhistory.org.il/1480.htm#Auto%20da%20Fe

You can go historical on the historical of the Inquistion, but YOU NEED TO PROVE REAL FACTS. 50 MILLION PEOPLE DEAD DURING THE INQUISTION IS OUTLANDISH and a LIE!!

 

[E.E.N.S]

From my limited investigation, I found no conflicting numbers from the sources I stated.
That means whatever I learned, I stated in my post.
The only conflicting numbers came from Catholics and Catholics sources on this website.
So, if the church says it was only a few thousand killed in
six hundred years. Who am I to argue? I wasn’t there.
As you pointed out, the books I referenced were all anti Catholic propaganda. Even Halleys Bible Handbook is anti catholic propaganda.
I guess I will have to accept your history of the event.
Could you suggest a book that I could buy that would accurately tell the story?

Actually one of the very people you are arguing against in this thread is a protestant who happens to be an expert.

 

[newbie1234]

Catholic Sources?

Did I not cite a Non-Catholic Source:

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Inquisition.html Inquistion Jewish Virtual Library. There numbers does not even equal 50 million which are you are truly mislead.

First, they arrested Conversos and notable figures in Seville; in Seville more than 700 Conversos were burned at the stake and 5,000 repented. Tribunals were also opened in Aragon, Catalonia and Valencia. An Inquisition Tribunal was set up in Ciudad Real, where 100 Conversos were condemned, and it was moved to Toledo in 1485. Between 1486-1492, 25 auto-da-fes were held in Toledo, **467 people **were burned at the stake and others were imprisoned. The Inquisition finally made its way to Barcelona, where it was resisted at first because of the important place of Spanish Conversos in the economy and society.

By the second half of the 18th century, the Inquisition abated, due to the spread of enlightened ideas and lack of resources. The last auto-da-fe in Portugal took place on October 27, 1765. Not until 1808, during the brief reign of Joseph Bonaparte, was the Inquisition abolished in Spain. An estimated 31,912 heretics were burned at the stake, 17,659 were burned in effigy and 291,450 made reconciliations in the Spanish Inquisition. In Portugal, about 40,000 cases were tried, although only 1,800 were burned, the rest made penance.

The number of victims in Spain alone is estimated at 39,912, many of whom were burned alive.

At most 30,000 were killed NO WHERE NEAR the 50 MILLION who were persecuted. So your sources Newbie is deeply in question or reliable.

I did not use Catholic sources I used Jewish sources. If you want to take a look just go to the links I provided.

jewishhistory.org.il/1480.htm#Auto%20da%20Fe

You can go historical on the historical of the Inquistion, but YOU NEED TO PROVE REAL FACTS. 50 MILLION PEOPLE DEAD DURING THE INQUISTION IS OUTLANDISH and a LIE!!

Ok here are some numbers!
Forty thousand burned alive in the Spanish inquisition. I will accept that.
Let us not forget that the number of people actually killed was probably only one tenth of the number of people “processed”
( tortured).
So could we assume that there were roughly 400,000 people either tortured or killed in the Spanish inquisition?
Am I assuming too much?

 

[VociMike]

Why does it have to be asked outside of this topic? It is easy to condemn, or to support, something in theory or concept…harder to do so when faced with actual, real situations. The entire concept of an Inquisition, whether run by the State or the Church (since there seems to be some dispute over exactly who did what according to whose dictates) is repugnant to religious liberty.

But religious liberty, especially within Christianity, simply didn’t exist as a concept back then. One could sit down with a history book and find any number of past attitudes and practices that are today repugnant, but what is the point of such an exercise? What, really, is the point? To actually understand, or to continue to accuse people from 600 or 1000 or 1400 of not being people from 2000? OK, they’re all guilty.

(BTW, those in the past would also find any number of our own attitudes and practices repugnant. It takes a very, very long view of history to judge a past era, not to mention judging our own era.)

 

[Mannyfit75]

At most 30,000 were killed NO WHERE NEAR the 50 MILLION who were persecuted. So your sources Newbie is deeply in question or reliable.

I did not use Catholic sources I used Jewish sources. If you want to take a look just go to the links I provided.

jewishhistory.org.il/1480.htm#Auto%20da%20Fe

You can go historical on the historical of the Inquistion, but YOU NEED TO PROVE REAL FACTS. 50 MILLION PEOPLE DEAD DURING THE INQUISTION IS OUTLANDISH and a LIE!!

Ok here are some numbers!
Forty thousand burned alive in the Spanish inquisition. I will accept that.
Let us not forget that the number of people actually killed was probably only one tenth of the number of people “processed”
( tortured).
So could we assume that there were roughly 400,000 people either tortured or killed in the Spanish inquisition?
Am I assuming too much?

Your assumptions is not proven by any historian nor scholar who is verse in history. I have done my research and 400,000 is no where stated in their studies. This include some Non-Catholic sources.

You are like Jack Chick, the worst Anti-Catholic person. You should join his club.

Why do you spread lies that 50 million where killed. Is not Satan the King of Lies?

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

The inquisition was a dark period for the papacy.
It lasted 605 years.
It is estimated that between 10 million and 50millon people were either tortured, killed, or burned at the stake.
The torture methods were gruesome.
There were over 75 popes in succession that not only condoned but promoted these atrocities.
Many Christians were tortured and burned at the stake if they didn’t accept the doctrine of Real Presence in the eucharist.
Many people of other faiths were killed also.
The inquisition started with pope Innocent III or there about.
It is really a fascinating, albeit tragic, time in RCC history.
The inquisition made the holocaust look like childs play.

Let me guess, you get your “facts” from Jack Chick?

Try this question on for size–how could the Inquisition kill 10-50 million people in the areas it operated when the total population of those areas never exceeded 15 million until 1650?–and in an era of muscle-powered weapons, NO mass transportation, etc?

 

[newbie1234]

Why do you spread lies that 50 million where killed. Is not Satan the King of Lies?

If you go way back to my post #34 you will see that I stated from one of the sources the exact number of people processed by the spanish inquisition.
This does not mean they were all burned. Only about ten percent were actually killed but the rest were tortured. Is this a fair statement?
If so your # of 39,000 burned at the stake would be in line with the total number of those processed, agreed?