What We Have Lost & the Road to Restoration

[paramedicgirl]

In my opinion, yes, that would be the better way to have phrased it, because that doesn’t seem to imply that Puzzleannie WASN’T concerned about the abuses. You do not, of course, answer to me, but I think we shouldn’t make an assumption unless we have all the facts about someone.

Can that be posted in the rules somewhere?

 

[E.E.N.S]

…the Ave Maria blog (tradcath-marilena.blogspot.com/) …

I left a brief comment on that blog.

 

[E.E.N.S]

And how blessed you are to be going there! I’m jealous.

Indeed I am. Hopefully the Motu Proprio to come will make more people have a greater accessability to the TLM, so they can be blessed as well.

 

[Anima_Christi]

Some might argue, to borrow even more from English poet Thomas Gray, that ignorance of some matters is indeed bliss, where “'Tis folly to be wise.” (remainder of quote taken from Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College).

And I think it is folly to place oneself in league with those attacking any Roman Catholic Mass.

Some of us are simply more circumspect as Catholics on where we allow ourselves to search for “truth”.

The OP’s blog linking to the video states that the video “asks” the following four questions:*Is the Church still Catholic? Has She lost the true faith? Does the clergy still truly “believe?” Can we count on today’s Church to lead us to salvation?*Let me guess - the video also “answers” those four questions for us, doesn’t it? All in the negative?

Please let me know if I am wrong, and I may consider watching it.

Peace all.

How strange that we live in a time when those who defend the traditions of the Catholic faith and oppose modern errors, those who wish to return to the authentic Catholic Mass which was promulgated by the holy Council of Trent (though it is much, much older than Trent) and Saint Pius V, the Mass that has produced thousands of saints, are accused of being against Roman Catholicism…while those proponents of modern innovations–innovations which previous popes and councils would have condemned, and in many cases did condemn–and of an artificial, banal liturgy that was carefully crafted by a committee for the purpose of removing whatever might be offensive to heretics (this is well documented), which is barely distinguishable from the Lutheran order of service, and which, far from increasing faith in the Real Presence and Sacrificial nature of the Mass has actually contributed to a plummet in Mass attendance, the belief that the Mass is primarily a communal meal, a “Lord’s supper”, and the fact the less than one-third of all Catholics even believe in the Real Presence–yes, the proponents of these things are considered the “faithful sons and daughters of the Church”.
How is it that those Catholics who merely practice the faith as it has been practiced by saints and popes for centuries, who adhere to dogmas and understand them in the precise, unambiguous way they had always been understood, are suspected and accused of being “disobedient” and having a “schismatic mindset”, while those “Catholics” who participate in the personality cult centered around the previous pontiff, who cheer with enthusiasm at his every whim, at each innovation he introduced or each tradition he discarded, at each ambiguous man-centered speech or encyclical, who out of a false sense of obedience promote opinions and customs that would have gotten them excommunicated a century ago, who prefer the New Order liturgy (and thus likely would have prefered the Lutheran or Anglican service had they lived during the Protestant revolution) to the Mass of the ages, are considered to be the true Catholics?? What an ODD situation this is. But why am I suprised…this is the time of reNEWal, the “new springtime”, the “new evangelization”, the “new order of the mass”, the new “mysteries of light”, and basically anything else that favors novelty and innovation over tradition.

 

[paramedicgirl]

How strange that we live in a time when those who defend the traditions of the Catholic faith and oppose modern errors, those who wish to return to the authentic Catholic Mass which was promulgated by the holy Council of Trent (though it is much, much older than Trent) and Saint Pius V, the Mass that has produced thousands of saints, are accused of being against Roman Catholicism…while those proponents of modern innovations–innovations which previous popes and councils would have condemned, and in many cases did condemn–and of an artificial, banal liturgy that was carefully crafted by a committee for the purpose of removing whatever might be offensive to heretics (this is well documented), which is barely distinguishable from the Lutheran order of service, and which, far from increasing faith in the Real Presence and Sacrificial nature of the Mass has actually contributed to a plummet in Mass attendance, the belief that the Mass is primarily a communal meal, a “Lord’s supper”, and the fact the less than one-third of all Catholics even believe in the Real Presence–yes, the proponents of these things are considered the “faithful sons and daughters of the Church”.
How is it that those Catholics who merely practice the faith as it has been practiced by saints and popes for centuries, who adhere to dogmas and understand them in the precise, unambiguous way they had always been understood, are suspected and accused of being “disobedient” and having a “schismatic mindset”, while those “Catholics” who participate in the personality cult centered around the previous pontiff, who cheer with enthusiasm at his every whim, at each innovation he introduced or each tradition he discarded, at each ambiguous man-centered speech or encyclical, who out of a false sense of obedience promote opinions and customs that would have gotten them excommunicated a century ago, who prefer the New Order liturgy (and thus likely would have prefered the Lutheran or Anglican service had they lived during the Protestant revolution) to the Mass of the ages, are considered to be the true Catholics?? What an ODD situation this is. But why am I suprised…this is the time of reNEWal, the “new springtime”, the “new evangelization”, the “new order of the mass”, the new “mysteries of light”, and basically anything else that favors novelty and innovation over tradition.

Very good post!

 

[AJV]

How strange that we live in a time when those who defend the traditions of the Catholic faith and oppose modern errors, those who wish to return to the authentic Catholic Mass which was promulgated by the holy Council of Trent (though it is much, much older than Trent) and Saint Pius V, the Mass that has produced thousands of saints, are accused of being against Roman Catholicism…while those proponents of modern innovations–innovations which previous popes and councils would have condemned, and in many cases did condemn–and of an artificial, banal liturgy that was carefully crafted by a committee for the purpose of removing whatever might be offensive to heretics (this is well documented), which is barely distinguishable from the Lutheran order of service, and which, far from increasing faith in the Real Presence and Sacrificial nature of the Mass has actually contributed to a plummet in Mass attendance, the belief that the Mass is primarily a communal meal, a “Lord’s supper”, and the fact the less than one-third of all Catholics even believe in the Real Presence–yes, the proponents of these things are considered the “faithful sons and daughters of the Church”.
How is it that those Catholics who merely practice the faith as it has been practiced by saints and popes for centuries, who adhere to dogmas and understand them in the precise, unambiguous way they had always been understood, are suspected and accused of being “disobedient” and having a “schismatic mindset”, while those “Catholics” who participate in the personality cult centered around the previous pontiff, who cheer with enthusiasm at his every whim, at each innovation he introduced or each tradition he discarded, at each ambiguous man-centered speech or encyclical, who out of a false sense of obedience promote opinions and customs that would have gotten them excommunicated a century ago, who prefer the New Order liturgy (and thus likely would have prefered the Lutheran or Anglican service had they lived during the Protestant revolution) to the Mass of the ages, are considered to be the true Catholics?? What an ODD situation this is. But why am I suprised…this is the time of reNEWal, the “new springtime”, the “new evangelization”, the “new order of the mass”, the new “mysteries of light”, and basically anything else that favors novelty and innovation over tradition.

Thousands? A little exaggerated don’t you think?

And since you made the comment about the Lutheran order of service, would it mind proving it?

Saying that those who favour the NO Mass would have favoured the Lutheran and Anglican service is, if you don’t mind me saying, a little ludicrous. But perhaps you could explain why?

 

[netmilsmom]

Thousands? A little exaggerated don’t you think?

And since you made the comment about the Lutheran order of service, would it mind proving it?

Saying that those who favour the NO Mass would have favoured the Lutheran and Anglican service is, if you don’t mind me saying, a little ludicrous. But perhaps you could explain why?

YIKES!!!

I have to say that going to the Lutheran church service (which was required in order to keep my daughter in Pre-School) was a whole lot closer to a Holy Mass than the mass I went to the day before (Sunday) at my “Catholic Community”.

Our poster MusicMan made a statement to this effect and I called him on it, saying that most people disregard a poster saying that their mass is closer to a Protestant service.

He said he plays at both and it is true in many places. They look alike.

 

[Karin]

How strange that we live in a time when those who defend the traditions of the Catholic faith and oppose modern errors, those who wish to return to the authentic Catholic Mass which was promulgated by the holy Council of Trent (though it is much, much older than Trent) and Saint Pius V, the Mass that has produced thousands of saints, are accused of being against Roman Catholicism…while those proponents of modern innovations–innovations which previous popes and councils would have condemned, and in many cases did condemn–and of an artificial, banal liturgy that was carefully crafted by a committee for the purpose of removing whatever might be offensive to heretics (this is well documented), which is barely distinguishable from the Lutheran order of service, and which, far from increasing faith in the Real Presence and Sacrificial nature of the Mass has actually contributed to a plummet in Mass attendance, the belief that the Mass is primarily a communal meal, a “Lord’s supper”, and the fact the less than one-third of all Catholics even believe in the Real Presence–yes, the proponents of these things are considered the “faithful sons and daughters of the Church”.
How is it that those Catholics who merely practice the faith as it has been practiced by saints and popes for centuries, who adhere to dogmas and understand them in the precise, unambiguous way they had always been understood, are suspected and accused of being “disobedient” and having a “schismatic mindset”, while those “Catholics” who participate in the personality cult centered around the previous pontiff, who cheer with enthusiasm at his every whim, at each innovation he introduced or each tradition he discarded, at each ambiguous man-centered speech or encyclical, who out of a false sense of obedience promote opinions and customs that would have gotten them excommunicated a century ago, who prefer the New Order liturgy (and thus likely would have prefered the Lutheran or Anglican service had they lived during the Protestant revolution) to the Mass of the ages, are considered to be the true Catholics?? What an ODD situation this is. But why am I suprised…this is the time of reNEWal, the “new springtime”, the “new evangelization”, the “new order of the mass”, the new “mysteries of light”, and basically anything else that favors novelty and innovation over tradition.

What an AWESOME post…thank you

 

[paramedicgirl]

YIKES!!!

I have to say that going to the Lutheran church service (which was required in order to keep my daughter in Pre-School) was a whole lot closer to a Holy Mass than the mass I went to the day before (Sunday) at my “Catholic Community”.

Our poster MusicMan made a statement to this effect and I called him on it, saying that most people disregard a poster saying that their mass is closer to a Protestant service.

He said he plays at both and it is true in many places. They look alike.

A few years ago, there was a funeral at our Catholic church, and the pastor from the United Church came. He sat in the pews and recited all of the priests responses (without a missal). He knew them by heart, and I can only reason that it is because the liturgy for our Mass is the same as his protestant service.

 

[Walking_Home]

How strange that we live in a time when those who defend the traditions of the Catholic faith and oppose modern errors, those who wish to return to the authentic Catholic Mass which was promulgated by the holy Council of Trent (though it is much, much older than Trent) and Saint Pius V, the Mass that has produced thousands of saints, are accused of being against Roman Catholicism…while those proponents of modern innovations–innovations which previous popes and councils would have condemned, and in many cases did condemn–and of an artificial, banal liturgy that was carefully crafted by a committee for the purpose of removing whatever might be offensive to heretics (this is well documented), which is barely distinguishable from the Lutheran order of service, and which, far from increasing faith in the Real Presence and Sacrificial nature of the Mass has actually contributed to a plummet in Mass attendance, the belief that the Mass is primarily a communal meal, a “Lord’s supper”, and the fact the less than one-third of all Catholics even believe in the Real Presence–yes, the proponents of these things are considered the “faithful sons and daughters of the Church”.
How is it that those Catholics who merely practice the faith as it has been practiced by saints and popes for centuries, who adhere to dogmas and understand them in the precise, unambiguous way they had always been understood, are suspected and accused of being “disobedient” and having a “schismatic mindset”, while those “Catholics” who participate in the personality cult centered around the previous pontiff, who cheer with enthusiasm at his every whim, at each innovation he introduced or each tradition he discarded, at each ambiguous man-centered speech or encyclical, who out of a false sense of obedience promote opinions and customs that would have gotten them excommunicated a century ago, who prefer the New Order liturgy (and thus likely would have prefered the Lutheran or Anglican service had they lived during the Protestant revolution) to the Mass of the ages, are considered to be the true Catholics?? What an ODD situation this is. But why am I suprised…this is the time of reNEWal, the “new springtime”, the “new evangelization”, the “new order of the mass”, the new “mysteries of light”, and basically anything else that favors novelty and innovation over tradition.

---

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Can that be posted in the rules somewhere?

Of course, we can ALSO base our assumptions about people and our responses to them on a reading of all their posts. If we were to do that, I still think Puzzleannie would have come out clean. Do you think Karin did that? Read a good cross section of PuzzleAnnie’s posts?

 

[Karin]

Of course, we can ALSO base our assumptions about people and our responses to them on a reading of all their posts. If we were to do that, I still think Puzzleannie would have come out clean.

true…and please note that I never accused her or assumed anything about her…I have read previous posts of hers…but as I do not read many of them, at times I forget the impression that they have left on me…hence the question that I asked.

 

[Unfinished]

How strange that we live in a time when those who defend the traditions of the Catholic faith and oppose modern errors, those who wish to return to the authentic Catholic Mass which was promulgated by the holy Council of Trent (though it is much, much older than Trent) and Saint Pius V, the Mass that has produced thousands of saints, are accused of being against Roman Catholicism…while those proponents of modern innovations–innovations which previous popes and councils would have condemned, and in many cases did condemn–and of an artificial, banal liturgy that was carefully crafted by a committee for the purpose of removing whatever might be offensive to heretics (this is well documented), which is barely distinguishable from the Lutheran order of service, and which, far from increasing faith in the Real Presence and Sacrificial nature of the Mass has actually contributed to a plummet in Mass attendance, the belief that the Mass is primarily a communal meal, a “Lord’s supper”, and the fact the less than one-third of all Catholics even believe in the Real Presence–yes, the proponents of these things are considered the “faithful sons and daughters of the Church”.
How is it that those Catholics who merely practice the faith as it has been practiced by saints and popes for centuries, who adhere to dogmas and understand them in the precise, unambiguous way they had always been understood, are suspected and accused of being “disobedient” and having a “schismatic mindset”, while those “Catholics” who participate in the personality cult centered around the previous pontiff, who cheer with enthusiasm at his every whim, at each innovation he introduced or each tradition he discarded, at each ambiguous man-centered speech or encyclical, who out of a false sense of obedience promote opinions and customs that would have gotten them excommunicated a century ago, who prefer the New Order liturgy (and thus likely would have prefered the Lutheran or Anglican service had they lived during the Protestant revolution) to the Mass of the ages, are considered to be the true Catholics?? What an ODD situation this is. But why am I suprised…this is the time of reNEWal, the “new springtime”, the “new evangelization”, the “new order of the mass”, the new “mysteries of light”, and basically anything else that favors novelty and innovation over tradition.

I hope everyone reads this.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Of course, we can ALSO base our assumptions about people and our responses to them on a reading of all their posts. If we were to do that, I still think Puzzleannie would have come out clean. Do you think Karin did that? Read a good cross section of PuzzleAnnie’s posts?

I wasn’t talking about Annie or Karin. If you go back to page two, you will see I was talking about someone else who accused me of being an SSPX member without any verification of the accusation. That what the roll eyes smilie was for.

 

[Karin]

I wasn’t talking about Annie or Karin. If you go back to page two, you will see I was talking about someone else who accused me of being an SSPX member without any verification of the accusation. That what the roll eyes smilie was for.

thank you paramedicgirl…dont be to hard on JKirkLVNV perhaps they have not been following the thread as closely as some of us** **

 

[LilyM]

YIKES!!!

I have to say that going to the Lutheran church service (which was required in order to keep my daughter in Pre-School) was a whole lot closer to a Holy Mass than the mass I went to the day before (Sunday) at my “Catholic Community”.

Our poster MusicMan made a statement to this effect and I called him on it, saying that most people disregard a poster saying that their mass is closer to a Protestant service.

He said he plays at both and it is true in many places. They look alike.

Well the very first Mass, if I recall rightly, ***looked ***very like a Jewish Passover meal. As I imagine did an awful lot of Masses did in the first decades of Christianity.

And the Eucharist at a Catholic Mass LOOKS like bread and wine, just like the elements at most any other Christian denomination’s “Lord’s Supper”.

All the difference in the world between ‘looks like’ and ‘is’ or even ‘is like’ in these particular contexts.

 

[Karin]

OK…since we have all finshed assuming things and slandering people can we get back to the topic at hand…and discuss, like adults, the video…I really would like to have an inteligent conversation without insults flying about this!

 

[AJV]

YIKES!!!

I have to say that going to the Lutheran church service (which was required in order to keep my daughter in Pre-School) was a whole lot closer to a Holy Mass than the mass I went to the day before (Sunday) at my “Catholic Community”.

Our poster MusicMan made a statement to this effect and I called him on it, saying that most people disregard a poster saying that their mass is closer to a Protestant service.

He said he plays at both and it is true in many places. They look alike.

I agree netsmil(name removed by moderator), that with the way certain Catholic liturgies in the West are conducted, and especially given the good choral tradition among many Protestant liturgies, outwardly such liturgies do seem closer to holiness. I know I truly miss for example, kneeling at a communion rail, or the proper hymns and later, the sung parts of the Anglican service compared to the low Masses in my Catholic church (though even my Anglican church wasn’t very far “up the candle” so I can imagine hwo with churches further up it may be especially when one compares it to an abuse ridden liturgy).

However, I do believe that absolutely NO such statement can be made that the Mass “is barely distinguishable from the Lutheran order of service”. That is a gross generalization that argues that the NO is flawed no matter how it may be celebrated. Even more ridiculous is the assertion that it is in any way comparable to the Reformation liturgies. That according to me is false, if one looks at the words and options of even the most modern Lutheran and Anglican liturgies. Don’t even go near the Reformed.

And it is after all the words that are important, not merely the externals. Why, in Sweden at the time of the Reformation, John III imposed a liturgy that was so close to the TLM (the “Red Book”), only changing words here and there in the Canon (which Luther abolished completely), and in contrast to German Lutheranism leaving most of the other parts unaltered. It was even offered at the High Altar, ad orientum, communion on the tongue and under both species (which was an indult practice at that time in certain Catholic neighboring countries) etc., etc. I would though, be daft, if I decided that the two were equal based on externals (not to imply that anyone here is .

Moreover, what some usually fail to take into comparison is the growing affection of the mainstream Protestants in the West for ritualism, and other practises that would not be at all compatible with the original Reformers. But, without being insulting, a lot of the time it is ritual without substance. Even today, when they are borrwing from all liturgies but changing words here and there to suit their ambiguity. That is why for exmaple you can find the Ecce Agnus Dei in the Cof E books with only “This is” changed to “Jesus is”. Or the Byzantine acclamation Sancta sanctis. Or Prayer D in the closest book to date of any of the PRotestants, the ECUSA 1979 which is almost like our E. P IV but does not make oblations of the Body and Blood, and is ambiguous in areas about the Eucharist.

Btu nevertheless, I’m ready to change my mind, and whoever wishes to do so (especially those who I see agreed with the post), can demonstrate from Lutheran orders of service at the time how the NO conforms to them. If I did have the time I would have done it myself for the contra, but I just go on typing longer and longer posts. Since indeed this does after all touch the Mass, it is only fair I think that people should back up their comments.

 

[Marilena]

I wasn’t talking about Annie or Karin. If you go back to page two, you will see I was talking about someone else who accused me of being an SSPX member without any verification of the accusation. That what the roll eyes smilie was for.

i can tell you for a fact that paramedicgirl is not a laity of the SSPX. even if she had been, is it not her right to chose where she would want to be? no one has the right to tell others where they can go, or what church they can go to,and whether or not to be a laity of the SSPX.( except for perhaps the Holy Father ? )

the rules of the CAF forums are to be respected at ALL times regardless of what you think or believe or say. like it or not, those ARE the rules.

 

[paramedicgirl]

i can tell you for a fact that paramedicgirl is not a laity of the SSPX. even if she had been, is it not her right to chose where she would want to be? no one has the right to tell others where they can go, or what church they can go to,and whether or not to be a laity of the SSPX.

the rules of the CAF forums are to be respected at ALL times regardless of what you think or believe or say. like it or not, those ARE the rules.

It’s OK, Marilena. it’s all figured out. We are going to kiss and hug, and then sit in a circle holding hands and singing KhumBayYa