What We Have Lost & the Road to Restoration

[paramedicgirl]

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We were warned not to go—if the intent is to separate from the Church.

Here’s the link to the response about the letter.

Una Voce America has received a communication from the Pontifical Ecclesia Dei Commission, concerning an article which appeared in The Remnant newspaper and various websites. At the request of the Commission, we are publishing it below.

Pontificia Commissio “Ecclesia Dei” January 18, 2003

Greetings in the Hearts of Jesus & Mary! There have been several inquiries about our letter of 27 September 2002. In order to clarify things, Msgr. Perl has made the following response.

Oremus pro invicem.

In cordibus Jesu et Mariæ,
Msgr. Arthur B. Calkins

Msgr. Camille Perl’s response:

Unfortunately, as you will understand, we have no way of controlling what is done with our letters by their recipients. Our letter of 27 September 2002, which was evidently cited in The Remnant and on various websites, was intended as a private communication dealing with the specific circumstances of the person who wrote to us. What was presented in the public forum is an abbreviated version of that letter which omits much of our pastoral counsel. Since a truncated form of this letter has now become public, we judge it appropriate to present the larger context of our response.

In a previous letter to the same correspondent we had already indicated the canonical status of the Society of St. Pius X which we will summarize briefly here.

1.) The priests of the Society of St. Pius X are validly ordained, but they are suspended from exercising their priestly functions. To the extent that they adhere to the schism of the late Archbishop Lefebvre, they are also excommunicated.

2.) Concretely this means that the Masses offered by these priests are valid, but illicit i.e., contrary to the law of the Church.

Points 1 and 3 in our letter of 27 September 2002 to this correspondent are accurately reported. His first question was “Can I fulfill my Sunday obligation by attending a Pius X Mass” and our response was:

“1. In the strict sense you may fulfill your Sunday obligation by attending a Mass celebrated by a priest of the Society of St. Pius X.”

His second question was “Is it a sin for me to attend a Pius X Mass” and we responded stating:

“2. We have already told you that we cannot recommend your attendance at such a Mass and have explained the reason why. If your primary reason for attending were to manifest your desire to separate yourself from communion with the Roman Pontiff and those in communion with him, it would be a sin. If your intention is simply to participate in a Mass according to the 1962 Missal for the sake of devotion, this would not be a sin.”

His third question was: “Is it a sin for me to contribute to the Sunday collection a Pius X Mass” to which we responded:

“3. It would seem that a modest contribution to the collection at Mass could be justified.”

Further, the correspondent took the Commission to task for not doing its job properly and we responded thus:

"This Pontifical Commission does not have the authority to coerce Bishops to provide for the celebration of the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. Nonetheless, we are frequently in contact with Bishops and do all that we can to see that this provision is made. However, this provision also depends on the number of people who desire the ‘traditional’ Mass, their motives and the availability of priests who can celebrate it.

“You also state in your letter that the Holy Father has given you a ‘right’ to the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. This is not correct. It is true that he has asked his brother Bishops to be generous in providing for the celebration of this Mass, but he has not stated that it is a ‘right’. Presently it constitutes an exception to the Church’s law and may be granted when the local Bishop judges it to be a valid pastoral service and when he has the priests who are available to celebrate it. Every Catholic has a right to the sacraments (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 843), but he does not have a right to them according to the rite of his choice.”

We hope that this puts in a clearer light the letter about which you asked us.

With prayerful best wishes for this New Year of Our Lord 2003, I remain

Sincerely yours in Christ,
Rev. Msgr. Camille Perl Secretary

 

[anamchara]

But how could Annie discuss the video if she won’t watch it?

Annie has been on these forums long enough, I’m sure she has seen them or things similar, I know I have as well.

I do agree that there is a sadness to what has been lost and I too wish we would regain some of the older reverance paramed, this is why I’m working on bringing a more traditional Altar server ministry to my own parish. I fully promote bringing back many things of old and my priest is wonderful about this. But this video is way over the top as others have pointed the reasons and I agree with.

I don’t have issues with the NO nor do I with the TLM but I feel we need to find a balance and stop with all this exaggerations which is causing terrible rancor among Catholics. We are suppose to be a family. Although I realize all brothers and sisters fight…so I guess that’s what is happening here…I just don’t think our Father is very happy about it

 

[Marilena]

Although I realize all brothers and sisters fight…so I guess that’s what is happening here…I just don’t think our Father is very happy about it

no, He probably isn’t

 

[Karin]

you know what kirk? i believe there ARE reverent NO’s, but really, come on, should dancing and limbo-ing be alowed at the mass?

my point was WHAT and WHY did Christ drive out the money changers?

should there be dancing and limbo-ing at mass?

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_6.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_116.gifor limbo-ing also no smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_4_22.gif or grape juice for the eucharist

 

[JKirkLVNV]

So the notorious Halloween mass where the priest dressed up as Barney, and EMHC dressed as devils, complete with horns was not a “BAD” Mass? Please. Poor Jesus, having to suffer that indignation.

That wasn’t the Church, was it, Paramedic Girl? No pope, as Supreme Legislator, promulgated the Barney Mass…or the Clown Mass…or any of the abuses we sometimes see. It was one misguided priest.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

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As I said—look who is slanting.

Back to the topic of this thread—the video.

The letter is posted here on this thread. I think it speaks for itself (particularly noteworthy is the section where it’s clearly stated no one has a right to the TLM).

 

[Karin]

That wasn’t the Church, was it, Paramedic Girl? No pope, as Supreme Legislator, promulgated the Barney Mass…or the Clown Mass…or any of the abuses we sometimes see. It was one misguided priest.

If it can happen in 1 parish with 1 priest and nothing is done then it can spread to 1000 parishes and 1000 priests
why would the priest in question even think that this was an acceptable thing to do? was he not paying attention in the seminary?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

you know what kirk? i believe there ARE reverent NO’s, but really, come on, should dancing and limbo-ing be alowed at the mass?

my point was WHAT and WHY did Christ drive out the money changers?

should there be dancing and limbo-ing at mass?

Goodness, no, there shouldn’t be dancing and limbo-ing at Mass! Who’s defending that? The point is still this: the VIDEO (since Walking Home wants to focus on that) doesn’t merely decry the abuse of the Pauline Mass, it decries the Mass ITSELF. The VIDEO would have us believe that liturgical dancing and limboing are as intergral to the Pauline Rite as the Asperges is to the TLM. Thus, they’re lying and misleading the faithful.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

If it can happen in 1 parish with 1 priest and nothing is done then it can spread to 1000 parishes and 1000 priests
why would the priest in question even think that this was an acceptable thing to do? was he not paying attention in the seminary?

Don’t you think something is being done? Don’t you think this idiocy is passing? I certainly think it is and I think it will continue to do so. I’m with Fr. Neuhaus, who said it looked like the “silly season” is about over. I think that the pope is doing something about it. I think bishops are now tightening up on things (some and gradually more). I don’t think that the Pauline Mass will be abrogated, though, and I don’t think that would be the answer to the problem. Why? Because the Pauline Mass ISN’T THE PROBLEM (contrary to one of the assertions of the VIDEO), the silly people are.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

Here is a link to a video that some might find interesting. It is about the changes to the Church, post Vatican II, and how they have affected us. It is about 45 minutes long. Be prepared to watch a priest do the limbo in Mass to demonstrate that we have tossed our belief in limbo. There is much more actual footage of real Masses. It makes you want to cry for all we have lost.

I’m at a loss for words…that was extremely depressing.

Pray for the return of Tradition.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Don’t you think something is being done? Don’t you think this idiocy is passing? I certainly think it is and I think it will continue to do so. I’m with Fr. Neuhaus, who said it looked like the “silly season” is about over. I think that the pope is doing something about it. I think bishops are now tightening up on things (some and gradually more). I don’t think that the Pauline Mass will be abrogated, though, and I don’t think that would be the answer to the problem. Why? Because the Pauline Mass ISN’T THE PROBLEM (contrary to one of the assertions of the VIDEO), the silly people are.

I think it would be fair to substitute “heretics” for “silly” in the above post.

 

[Anima_Christi]

The two situations don’t compare. I’m not saying that we don’t have modernists in the Church, I’m not saying that we don’t abuses in the Church. I’m saying that none of those things can be blamed on the Mass (contrary to what the film said). I’m saying that the pope wasn’t a modernist. I’m saying that much of what YOU would regard as dead essential, as Sacred Tradition, is NOT that, but tradition that is entirely “mutable,” that the Church in her wisdome may well alter. And it’s my expericence as a Protestant that leads me to defend the Mass against the charges that it’s been protestantized…what a laugh!

Finally, it’s the smug arrogance of some that they know better than (take your pick) the Father’s of the Council or the Vicar of Christ on earth. They’re just little arm chair popes, squeaking away, waving their little minnie anathemas. The Church will never repudiate the Council or the Pauline Mass.

Give me a break! It is only out of my love for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that I attack the New Liturgy, because it is quite unworthy to be the context of the Most August Sacrament of the Altar. So no one is attacking “the Mass” per se, but the New Rite which was designed specifically with ecumenism in mind (does that bother you at all?)
Yes, you come here with your holier-than-thou “I’m obedient and you’re not” attitude…but what you don’t realize is that the Church is not merely limited to whatever the latest trend the Pope and the Cardinals are currently promoting but all of the Popes and bishops and saints and laity who have ever lived, and in that sense I am being 100% obedient to the Catholic Church of Christ.
As for “knowing better than the pope”, either I and other traditionalists know better than John Paul II and Paul VI, or YOU and your fellow Novus Ordo devotees know more than Pius XII, Pius X, Pius V, Leo X, and so on because you promote things which they blatantly condemned! Yes, when I see a Pope scandalizing Catholics all over the world by inviting pagans to one of the holiest sites in Christendom to pray to their false gods (thus inviting them to commit sin and violate natural law, since all the gods of the pagans are demons according to the Psalmist and St. Francis Xavier), in writing and saying things that have confused many such as implying that perhaps no one goes to hell, who allowed pedophile priests to be shuffled from parish to parish and rewarded the bishop who did it, who never once spoke out against heretics such as McBrien and Raymond Brown, who appointed terrible bishops such as Mahoney, who essentially rewarded the abuse of having altar girls by permitting them rather than cracking down on the abuse and thus breaking with a 2,000 year old tradition, by kissing a book which denies Jesus Christ and promotes the killing of Christians and thus giving it the same sign of respect given to the Gospels, and so much more, then YES I do think I know more than that Pope! When there is such a pope, I will submit to him if he makes an infallible pronouncement or is obedient to tradition, but for the sake of my own salvation I cannot follow him in his errors! I choose to stand with all of the other popes and councils in condemning the errors he took part it.

 

[Anima_Christi]

That wasn’t the Church, was it, Paramedic Girl? No pope, as Supreme Legislator, promulgated the Barney Mass…or the Clown Mass…or any of the abuses we sometimes see. It was one misguided priest.

The Pope certainly isn’t stopping it.

 

[santaro75]

You have fallen into the (common) error of archaeologism: what the “original” Catholic Church did = what we should be doing, or, perhaps, if they didn’t do it, we shouldn’t do it. Archaeologism, plain and simple.

Whether you like it or not, Latin is the language of our Rite. A vernacular Mass can only be offered by Indult, that is, exception to the norm. Latin is the norm of our Rite.

Latin needs no defense, no justification, no “permission”.

Latin is the language of our Rite…a simple fact, notwithstanding anyone who disagrees.

ok, well if i can’t understand latin what does it do for me in terms of “feeding” one of christ’s sheep. Do you think Christ prefers Latin in his mass?

what a waste of time with all the hungry and lonely people in the world.

 

[Walking_Home]

The letter is posted here on this thread. I think it speaks for itself (particularly noteworthy is the section where it’s clearly stated no one has a right to the TLM).

Quote=JKirkLVNV
Again, as far as we know, it was addressed to one person with one set of circumstances. It wasn’t a blanket permission. It still is not recommended by the Apostolic See. It’s still warned against by Ecclesia Dei. If you feel like you want to contend with that, be my guest.​

Well-- there goes your spin that it is meant for one person. This letter is in response to several inquires. Since Ecclesia Dei wanted the letter published—Ecclesia Dei made it public.

Yes the letter speaks for itself. Of course—I will be expecting another spin on this.

Una Voce America has received a communication from the Pontifical Ecclesia Dei Commission, concerning an article which appeared in The Remnant newspaper and various websites. At the request of the Commission, we are publishing it below.

Pontificia Commissio “Ecclesia Dei” January 18, 2003

Greetings in the Hearts of Jesus & Mary! There have been several inquiries about our letter of 27 September 2002. In order to clarify things, Msgr. Perl has made the following response

 

[paramedicgirl]

ok, well if i can’t understand latin what does it do for me in terms of “feeding” one of christ’s sheep. Do you think Christ prefers Latin in his mass?

what a waste of time with all the hungry and lonely people in the world.

Strong words of hatred for the Mass of the Ages, don’t you think?

 

[paramedicgirl]

Quote=JKirkLVNV
Again, as far as we know, it was addressed to one person with one set of circumstances. It wasn’t a blanket permission. It still is not recommended by the Apostolic See. It’s still warned against by Ecclesia Dei. If you feel like you want to contend with that, be my guest.​

Well-- there goes your spin that it is meant for one person. This letter is in response to several inquires. Since Ecclesia Dei wanted the letter published—Ecclesia Dei made it public.

Yes the letter speaks for itself. Of course—I will be expecting another spin on this.
The original letter was addressed to one person. The letter I posted was a public respone to everyone who has the same questions.

Una Voce America has received a communication from the Pontifical Ecclesia Dei Commission, concerning an article which appeared in The Remnant newspaper and various websites. At the request of the Commission, we are publishing it below.

Pontificia Commissio “Ecclesia Dei” January 18, 2003

Greetings in the Hearts of Jesus & Mary! There have been several inquiries about our letter of 27 September 2002. In order to clarify things, Msgr. Perl has made the following response

The original letter was addressed to one person. The letter I posted was the public response to all those who have the same questions about attending an SSPX Mass.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I think it would be fair to substitute “heretics” for “silly” in the above post.

“Heresy” is a very specific term, Paramedicgirl, one for which the Church has a precise definition. I imagine that it’s entirely possible, maybe probable, that some of them are heretics. Some may believe all that the Church teaches, but simply have very poor judgement.

 

[Unfinished]

I think it would be fair to substitute “heretics” for “silly” in the above post.

lol.

 

[netmilsmom]

As for “knowing better than the pope”, either I and other traditionalists know better than John Paul II and Paul VI, or YOU and your fellow Novus Ordo devotees know more than Pius XII, Pius X, Pius V, Leo X, and so on because you promote things which they blatantly condemned!.

Well that gives one something to think about, doesn’t it.