What will it take for bishops to condemn illegal immigration?

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Thirty years later, taking up the words of the Council and with the same forcefulness I repeat that condemnation in the name of the whole Church, certain that I am interpreting the genuine sentiment of every upright conscience: "Whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia, or willful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where people are treated as mere instruments of gain rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others like them are infamies indeed. They poison human society, and they do more harm to those who practise them than to those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are a supreme dishonour to the Creator".

** Parr 3, Evenglium Vitae** by Pope John Paul II

Please retract your statement about my formation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Deportation is not an “intrinsic evil” like abortion or euthanasia. There are cases where deportation is a legitimate act, such of those who do not meet the just immigration requirements for a state. Of course it can be used for evil as well, such as deporting a citizen for his religious or political beliefs. This was the meaning that JPII was referring to in his encyclical.

“Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption”
CCC 2241
 
Deportation is not an “intrinsic evil” like abortion or euthanasia. There are cases where deportation is a legitimate act, such of those who do not meet the just immigration requirements for a state. Of course it can be used for evil as well, such as deporting a citizen for his religious or political beliefs. This was the meaning that JPII was referring to in his encyclical.

“Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption”
CCC 2241
On his list of sins against human dignity, the Holy Father includes deportation along with abortion and other sins, read it again.

In the ruling given in the CCC, the Church establishes that the state has a right to regulate immigration. But the CCC does not include deportation. Read it again.

The two statements, that of John Paul II and the CCC are not in conflict. Nor is the Church opposed to laws that govern and regulate immigration, only to any action that is a sin against human dignity. This is what we are trying to explain here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Unless someone is escaping political oppression, illegal entry into a country is a sin against the 7th Commandment: Though shall not steal. …With all due respect Brother Jr, I don’t know where you received your formation and I’m sure you mean well, but many of your comments exhibit false charity.
Maybe he has a better understanding of Church teaching. Where is illegal entry, or any form of trespass ever treated as stealing in one single document put out by the Catholic Church?
 
I was reacting to some bishops’ being for crippling restrictions to the Arizona law (the rest being silent or too general about charity, while all this has gone on), which was softer than the US and Mexican immigration laws, which no bishops seem to complain about.
I think it is totally legitimate to support or not support any single detail about this law, as long as we try to understand the mind of the Church in this matter. When the Arizona law was first enacted, every bishop spoke against it. It had some provisions that made it a really bad and dangerous law. Within two weeks there concerns were addressed and some did come out at that time as saying that they considered their concerns to be addressed.

I think it is too much to expect support of this law, to expect condemnation of all illegal immigration or to expect that there will not be some that* on their own*, still think there are provisions in the law or its execution that are wrong.

I do think it is important to listen to the moral theology that the Church is teaching here, especially in light of some of the weird ideas of moral theology I have seen on this thread. We are the students, not the teachers. Then, when we are firmly grounded in the teaching of the Church, and we can understand even those areas that we disagree with, we are in a better position to use prudence in weighing these matters, while still being faithful to the teaching of the Church.
 
On his list of sins against human dignity, the Holy Father includes deportation along with abortion and other sins, read it again.

In the ruling given in the CCC, the Church establishes that the state has a right to regulate immigration. But the CCC does not include deportation. Read it again.

The two statements, that of John Paul II and the CCC are not in conflict. Nor is the Church opposed to laws that govern and regulate immigration, only to any action that is a sin against human dignity. This is what we are trying to explain here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
John Paul II was speaking in generalities and did not intend for the list (taken from Gaudium et Spes) to be taken without further qualifications. In other words, you can’t just take an item from the list and say this is an intrinsic evil and leave it at that. For instance, mutilation is listed as one of the sins against human dignity, but is that always true? Not at all, CCC 2297 states, “Amputations and mutilations of a person are morally permissible only for strictly therapeutic medical reasons.” Are “subhuman living conditions” always sins against humnaniy? Could not degrading or subhuman conditions be inevitable, for example, after some great natural disaster in which mere survival is an achievement? Of course, that is why further qualifications are necessary. On Evangelium Vitae, Cardinal Avery Dulles points out, “If pressed, I suspect, the pope would have admitted the need for some qualifications (to the list), but he could not have specified these without a rather long excursus that would have been distracting in the framework of his encyclical.”

Concerning deportation, Cardinal Dulles further states:
“Individual deportations of undesirable aliens occur continually as a matter of national policy today; mass deportations could perhaps be necessary for the sake of peace and security.”
 
Hi, JReducation,

Thank you for this citation - and for your patience in this matter.

As you probalby guessed, I really do not have a clue in this matter. Looking at the citation you provided, deportation is specifically identified as a violation of human dignity - so, it would appear like anytime someone is deported this would be a violation as Pope John Paul II’s directive. But, honestly, Brother, this just does not make any sense to my way of thinking … are there no conditions under which deportation is appropriate?

If there aren’t any allowable conditions for deportation, how are we able to have a country with boarders and protect one’s own citizens? Honestly, I can understand all of the others:

subhuman living conditions,
arbitrary imprisonment,
slavery,
prostitution,
the selling of women and children;
disgraceful working conditions,
where people are treated as mere instruments of gain rather than as free and responsible persons

but, ]deportation just seems misplaced. Just how is a country to function with real boarders?

God bless
Thirty years later, taking up the words of the Council and with the same forcefulness I repeat that condemnation in the name of the whole Church, certain that I am interpreting the genuine sentiment of every upright conscience: "Whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia, or willful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where people are treated as mere instruments of gain rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others like them are infamies indeed. They poison human society, and they do more harm to those who practise them than to those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are a supreme dishonour to the Creator".

** Parr 3, Evenglium Vitae** by Pope John Paul II

Please retract your statement about my formation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
With all due deference to JREducation, for whom I have the utmost esteem, It must be pointed out that Evangelium Vitae is quoting Vatican II; an ecumenical council. In the hierarchy of the authority of teaching in the Church, an ecumenical council has all the authority of a definition ex cathedra. It is has the full authority of the teaching charism of the Church.

Thus there can be no question about whether this is an infallible or doctrinal or changable pronouncement.

However, it is critical that we understand it properly. It should be understood in the context of other Church teachings on this matter.
 
There are a number of issue on the table here. Let’s try to look at them in small pieces. I have to add a disclaimer here. We cannot do them justice on an Internet thread. If you want to know how to apply the CCC and Evangelium Vitae, go with your bishop. As Paul reminds the Churches under him, he has been given to them as their father, because he is an Apostle. According to the same tradition, our bishop is given to us as our father. It falls within his authority to interpret and apply these teachings for us. The key here is to go with the bishop of your diocese.

Another issue on the table is the attempt to interpret what Pope John Paul II was thinking. This is a very Protestant notion. The Protestants do this all the time with scriptures. Every individual feels empowered to interpret them without a central authority to confirm or deny. When you do this to the writings of a pope, you fall into the same practice. There are systems and authorities in the Church who have been authorized to interpret these writings. We must work with those.

Are there situations when deportation is morally acceptable? One has to follow the rule of the greater good. An action can be morally acceptable if it is for the greater good, provided that the action is not already condemned as immoral in itself. Since Pope John Paul does not say that deportation is immoral here, but not there, we would be guessing. St. Augustine always tells us that in doubt, you go with what the Church says as she says it. In this case, until another pope comes around and says, “Deportation is moral here, but not here . . . “ we take the words of John Paul as they are written, because they are written authoritatively and definitively. No pope can delete them. He can explain them or change how they are applied, not do away with them. Until the Church says that you can apply it this way in this situation and that way in the other, you always take it at face value. You don’t want to run the risk of doing the wrong thimg.

Also on the table is the issue of faith. I don’t always understand things. Some things sound foolish to me. Other things I just think are just bad ideas. However, the law in Christian spirituality was very clearly spelled out by St. Benedict, repeated by St. Francis of Assisi and explained by St. Thomas Aquinas. I left a few other saints out in the middle. We must obey, even when we are in disagreement. The only time when it is permissible to disobey and even a duty to disobey, is when we are asked to commit a sin. However, who decides what is a sin? The Church does. Therefore, I cannot unilaterally decide that this is a sin just to get out of obeying, when the Church has never said so. In that case, my agenda becomes very obvious. I’m invoking conscience in order to liberate myself from moral duty. I cannot do that. I must obey, even if I’m uncomfortable, until it is certain that what I’m being asked to obey is morally wrong. They I have a duty to disobey.

There is the all important issue of the house divided. Here is where American Catholics seem to be the greatest sinners. Pope John Paul once said that to American Catholics while he was visiting Baltimore. I was there when he said that Americans often create a tension between their fidelity to their nation and their fidelity to their Church. It was rather interesting, because this is one area where he found that Muslims had something to teach American Catholics. They never tolerate state before faith. They force their state to comply with their faith or their faith drives their politics. If we who have been given the fullness truth were to do that, how much better would our nation be?

Finally, I am feeling preasured here to commit a very grave sin that I will not commit. When my religious community was granted permission to separate from the larger Franciscan community, it was for one reason and one reason only. We were to continue to live the Rule of St. Francis, as every other Franciscan. But we were to focus all of our energy into proclaiming Evangelium Vitae and all of its aspects and consequences. In essence, we then had the Rule of St. Francis to govern our spiritual lives and Evangelium Vitae as our ministry. We literally spend hours and weeks studying this document under a microscope, referring back and forth between the document and it’s sources. John Paul II used over 200 sources to write this document. We are neither ignorant of the content or of its grounding in Catholic tradition, Catholic moral law, natural law, and Catholic social teaching. For me to back down and say, “Yes you can interpret it your way or to say that I support our current immigration laws, without challenging the flaws in it that are contrary to our Catholic teachings, would be a very grave sin.”

You may question my formation. You may question my charity. But you may never question my integrity and my fidelity to St. Francis and the Church. Because you will see me die saying the same thing, “Do as he tells you to do.”

If this kind of obedience to the Holy Rule, which says, “The brothers shall obey the pope in all things, but sin and shall teach the laity to do the same,” is bothersome to some and questionable to others, then I challenge you to reflect on your own commitment to the Catholic Church. You cannot ask the Church, her clergy and her religious to be faithful to their call on your terms. You take us on the terms of our founders and the terms of the Church or you leave us. There is no compromise when it comes to obedience and fidelity to what I promised to obey. You have been asking for priests and religious who do not compromise on their calling. Here I am, your brother.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Unless someone is escaping political oppression, illegal entry into a country is a sin against the 7th Commandment: Though shall not steal. A country has a right to protect its border, not only for the safety of its citizens but also those who seek to enter illegally. Encouraging this behavior would actually be the sin against his dignity: by your sin of commission you are encouraging his continued violation of the 7th Commandment which leads to corruption of his soul over time. Whether intended or not, he is committing harm against himself and others and is just as culpable. With all due respect Brother Jr, I don’t know where you received your formation and I’m sure you mean well, but many of your comments exhibit false charity.
Screwtape just doesn’t give up.
 
Hi, Kardinal,

That sailed right over my head! :eek: Please clarify the following for me…
With all due deference to JREducation, for whom I have the utmost esteem, It must be pointed out that Evangelium Vitae is quoting Vatican II; an ecumenical council.

Vatical II is the entire Council with numerous documents. Are you saying that there is a document that addresses deportation as being against human dignity and therefore against the natural law and condemned by the Church?

In the hierarchy of the authority of teaching in the Church, an ecumenical council has all the authority of a definition ex cathedra.

Thank goodness…something I knew already! 😃 But, please, in keeping with the thread - what does this mean specific to deportation? And, give you give a citation or reference? Thanks 🙂

It is has the full authority of the teaching charism of the Church.

Thus there can be no question about whether this is an infallible or doctrinal or changable pronouncement.

This is where I got lost! Are you saying that there is an infallible declaration against deportation and this is contained in the Council documents?

However, it is critical that we understand it properly. It should be understood in the context of other Church teachings on this matter.
Why does this sound like you are back-tracking or hedging your answer, Kardinal? I do not understand if there is a condemnation for deportation (I don’t know…did we establish that yet…:confused:) why would we need to have this in context of other docuemnts? This seems to me to mean that the condemnation has some exceptions. You see, where clear direction is needed. Looking forward to hearing from you! 🙂

God bless
 
On his list of sins against human dignity, the Holy Father includes deportation along with abortion and other sins, read it again.

In the ruling given in the CCC, the Church establishes that the state has a right to regulate immigration. But the CCC does not include deportation. Read it again.

The two statements, that of John Paul II and the CCC are not in conflict. Nor is the Church opposed to laws that govern and regulate immigration, only to any action that is a sin against human dignity. This is what we are trying to explain here.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
So how does one regulate immigration if there is no viable consequence for ignoring the regulations?
 
The Church has never said that a nation may not protect its residents from evil or its borders. All that has been said is that whatever you do to proect cannot violate human dignity. If deportation violates human dignity, then find a another way of protecting yourself. The Church is not taking away the right to protect ourselves from people who intend to do us harm.

In addition, just because something or some action causes harm, that does not mean that the person is subjectively culpable. Don’t hold him to a subjective responsibility that the Church does not apply. To be subjectively culpable you must do something evil, you must know that it is evil and want to do it anyway. Most illegal immigrants do not meet these three criteria.

Let us not treat the person who comes across a border to terrorize the same way a sthe person who comes across the border seeking a better life for his family. It is an affront to human dignity to equate a criminal with a father seeking a better life for his children.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
**Unless someone is escaping political oppression, illegal entry into a country is a sin against the 7th Commandment: Though shall not steal. **…
I too am waiting on an explaination of this comment, what has been stolen and who stole it?
 
So how does one regulate immigration if there is no viable consequence for ignoring the regulations?
This is a very legitimate question and a very hard one to answer. The most that the Church can supply are the moral rules. It is up to each nation to come up with laws that remain within those moral guidelines. It’s like coloring by numbers. You have to stay within the dots.

You need laws. No one argues against this. But our laws must be well thoughtout so that they do not do harm to good people. Our laws must be enforced in a manner that they show respect for human dignity. Even rapists and murderers have human dignity and human rights.

Human dignity is not lost because some rapes. He is acting beneath his human dignity, but the gift is still there.

As I just explained to a good friend on a PM, the problem with the deportation is that it treats the illegal immigrant who rapes and the man who crosses a border to provide a better life for his family as if they were the same. That’s not true. They are not the same.

When a governor refers to children as “anchor children” what is he/she saying about a child? Does a child deserve to have such a label? Is not labeling children an abominal behavior against the innocent?

When a governor says to the illegal immigrant “Leave and take your anchor children with you.” What is this person saying? Does this child not have the same rights as a child born in the same country? Every human being has a right to live in his homeland. If you are born in Russia, you should have the right to live there and so forth. How or why you were born there has nothing to do with your right. Unless there are laws that say that the child born in the USA (other any nation) of an illegal immigrant, is not a citizen, you have to grant that child the rights of citizens. You have to find a legal way to protect that child’s rights. Deportation becomes a weapon against the rights of the vulnerable child. You either separate the chidl and the parent by deporting the parent and putting the child in foster care or you deport the child, who is a citizen.

These are just a few examples of how deportation becomes an immoral act, because of what it does. The challenge that we Catholics have to place before those whom we elect is to find ways of making the law work that will not treat good parents as if they were terrorists, will not deny the rights of a child who is a citizen, will not label innocent children and will protect the safety of those who already live inside the nation. That’s the job of legislators. We elect them for that purpose.

That’s why Pope John Paul blasted our democratic system. He said that we tend to protect democracy and not morality. He accused us of having a very distortede view of democracy. We do not use it to promote the Truth that is revealed through the Church. We use it to promot our personal interests. He blasted the USA, Canada, Europe and many other nations who have strong democracies, but fail to use the democratic system as a means to serve Revelation.

What do we do? When we go to the polls, we vote for people who are consistent with Catholic moral teaching and vote out those who are not. It’s not one part or another. The politicians are as much individuals as anyone else. There are moral people in politics and others who could not care less about morality. Those who don’t want to work with the moral law do not belong in office.

It takes us back to the old saying, “You get what you pay for.” In this case, “You get what you vote for.”

In my state we do an annual Catholic Days at the Capitol. All of the dioceses in the state send delegations of citizens to the State Capitol. They know that we’re coming. We go into their offices and we grill them on these life issues. Where is the problem? The problem is that only a handful of Catholics go. This year there may have been about 1500 in a state with more than five million Catholics. How sad 😦

I don’t have to know how to build a safe house, nor do you. But you’re architect and your engineer has to know. You have the right to demand that he knows. The same applies to law makers and law enforcement when it comes to moral laws. We give them the moral requirements. It is their job to know how to design and execute laws within those requirements. We cannot make excuses for them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Vatical II is the entire Council with numerous documents. Are you saying that there is a document that addresses deportation as being against human dignity and therefore against the natural law and condemned by the Church?
No, I am not. I am saying that Evangelium Vitae is quoting from Gaudium et Spes. See below:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html
The Ordinary Magesterium of the Catholic Church:
Furthermore, whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia or wilful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where men are treated as mere tools for profit, rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others of their like are infamies indeed. They poison human society, but they do more harm to those who practice them than those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are supreme dishonor to the Creator.
Why does this sound like you are back-tracking or hedging your answer, Kardinal?
I suspect because you somehow believe I’m drawing a conclusion or “taking a side”. I’m not; I’m simply pointing out that the language used in Evangelium Vitae originally is used in Vatican II. Thus its authority is the highest. My objective is to understand what the Church teaches and how it should be applied in my life and my nation.
I do not understand if there is a condemnation for deportation (I don’t know…did we establish that yet…) why would we need to have this in context of other docuemnts?
The Church’s teaching must always be understood in context. To understand the fullness of Catholic teaching, for instance, on social issues, we must read ALL of the major social encyclicals, not just one and draw from it those quotes which support our agenda or illustrate errors in our opponents.

So in this case, we must understand what is said in Gaudium et Spes in the light of its own context. And in context of such statements as the Catechism:
Catechism of the Catholic 2241:
Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.
It seems to me that without the authority to deport, enforcing immigration as CCC2241 indicates would be impossible. So I cannot conclude that all deportation of any kind is fundamentally opposed to human dignity. But certainly some kinds can be. Such as any attempt to mass-deport all Mexicans or Muslims from the United States.
 
Another interpretation I have heard is that this is a misunderstanding of the connotation of the term “deportation”. I simply don’t know.

I am loathe to disagree with JREducation, as I acknowledge his expertise regarding Evangelium Vitae.

I have heard that “deportation”, to a European ear, means closer to what we in America would call “forced migration”, such as what Lenin and Stalin did to innumerable peoples of the former Russian Empire, or what was done to the Jews, to Italian southerners who had opposed the anti-Catholic unification of Italy, to French Catholics who’d revolted against the revolutionaries, and so forth. Would that be consistent with your understanding of the term as used in Gaudium et Spes and Evangelium Vitae, JREducation?

My own very shallow reading of GeS would reflect that such a definition of “deportation” would seem more in keeping with the other very grave sins in that list. But I admit my own modern cultural bias in that regard.

I think JReducation is an excellent example of fidelity to the Church and its teaching magesterium. Where we think one thing and the Church even appears to teach something else, our default position should be that we are wrong and the Church is right. We change our view to conform with what the Church teaches FIRST and THEN we seek to understand it fully. Even if our understanding of the Church’s teaching is imperfect, we can rarely go wrong by siding with it over ourselves. It is the “safe” bet.

So until demonstrated otherwise, I will side with “deportation = forcibly expelling a person from the nation’s borders”. Including this case.
 
Allow me to ask simple question here. Why are we Catholics helping make it easy for politicians not to do their job, not to comply with moral law, and not to fix a broken system?

When we sit here and go over and over all the reasons that this worn’t work or that won’t work or how the bishops may not say this or that, what are we really doing?

We’re giving law makers and law enforcement a free pass.

That’s wrong. As Catholics and as citizens, we have the duty to tell them, “These are the rules. Now go make laws the conform to these rules. If you cannot do so, then you’re out of a job and someone else will be elected.”

When I want to build a house I get an architect to draw the plans and a contractor to build it. I tell them what I want. I don’t have to know how to make it happen. I just know what I want. If they do not deliver, I take them to court.

The same applies to the redaction and implementation of immigration laws. Twenty-five million Catholics have been given a moral compass. We take that compass to our legislators and we say as we would to an architect or contractor, “Make this happen or you’re fired.”

We’re sitting here trying to figure out how to create just immrgation laws. Our job as Catholics and citizens is to tell those who live off our taxes what the law may and may not do, according to the guidelines given to us by our bishops. None of us should be working so hard to come up with laws that work. That’s their job.

This is why the political machinery is so broken in so many countries. Citizens create loopholes for legislators. How goofy is that? 😛

We can tell them, “You may not deport, because you don’t know the difference between a terrorist and a father trying to find a better life for his kids. Morally it is wrong to equate the two. Either you come up with a deportation law that does not violate human dignity or you do not deport. End of story.”

We can tell them, “You have a duty to protect those who reside in the country. But these are the moral principles that must guide you. End of story.”

This would be the proper use of the democratic process, as a means to achieve an end that is consistent with revealed truth and moral natural law. Let’s waste more time tyring to figure out what can should be done. Who on this thread is a legislator? We’re Catholic citizens. We have the right to demand that legislators legislate according to our moral principles.

If you can put a man on the moon, create a computer smaller than a dime, clone a human being (which is immoral), change the weather patterns, then you should also have the know-how to fix a broken immigration system in a way that is morally right. Go do it.

This is preaching the Gospel of Life.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Another interpretation I have heard is that this is a misunderstanding of the connotation of the term “deportation”. I simply don’t know.

I am loathe to disagree with JREducation, as I acknowledge his expertise regarding Evangelium Vitae.

I have heard that “deportation”, to a European ear, means closer to what we in America would call “forced migration”, such as what Lenin and Stalin did to innumerable peoples of the former Russian Empire, or what was done to the Jews, to Italian southerners who had opposed the anti-Catholic unification of Italy, to French Catholics who’d revolted against the revolutionaries, and so forth. Would that be consistent with your understanding of the term as used in Gaudium et Spes and Evangelium Vitae, JREducation?

My own very shallow reading of GeS would reflect that such a definition of “deportation” would seem more in keeping with the other very grave sins in that list. But I admit my own modern cultural bias in that regard.

I think JReducation is an excellent example of fidelity to the Church and its teaching magesterium. Where we think one thing and the Church even appears to teach something else, our default position should be that we are wrong and the Church is right. We change our view to conform with what the Church teaches FIRST and THEN we seek to understand it fully. Even if our understanding of the Church’s teaching is imperfect, we can rarely go wrong by siding with it over ourselves. It is the “safe” bet.

So until demonstrated otherwise, I will side with “deportation = forcibly expelling a person from the nation’s borders”. Including this case.
I know what you’re saying abou the European experience, re: deportation. It is true that they experienced deportation in many horrible ways.

Until we have more specific details, we must by default take the moral teaching at face value. It always happens that with the passing of time, more dialogue takes place and greater clarification comes to us. But we’re not there right now. This is where our absolute obedience and faith come to play. We trust what we have been given, knowing that God does not punish us for what we do not know. We do the best with what we do know.

One hundred years ago we had the Syllabus of Errors. Today we have greater clarification on what that meant and what it was trying to do. We don’t follow it in the same manner as our forefathers did 100 years ago. But they would have been morally wrong to reject it without more information. They did not. They took it at face value, ok most did.

As time moves forward, theologians, bishops, religious orders, and people of many other academic disciplines will look at this document against the many things that the Holy Father wrote and what he did. They will begin to extrapolate, just as we did with the Syllabus of Errors. As they extrapolate, they will clarify. But we cannot do this extrapolation individually. To do this would be to run the risk of using the Protestant method where everyone is an authority. At some point, we have to yield authority. I believe that we American and Europeans are allergic to that thought. Then we wonder why our children do not answer the call to the consecratede life of obedience. :confused: Look at the example that we, their parents are setting.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation,

I understand. As we have agreed, we should default to the best understanding we have of what the Church teaches rather than our own interpretation.

Would it be at all useful to examine the original Latin used in both Evangelium Vitae and Gaudium et Spes (I assume they are the same) for deeper understanding of what the Church is teaching there?
 
I too am waiting on an explaination of this comment, what has been stolen and who stole it?
Perhaps that poster was implying that by remaining within the United States, and (theoretically) accepting remuneration for work without the right to work, illegal immigrants were ‘stealing’? Or by using resources that were intended for those legally residing in the US?
 
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