What would happen if JPII did this?

[Deacon2006]

DominvsVobiscvm:

The Church has not said that it is. As of now, it’s simply the informed opinion of you and I.

…and I suppose the Pope, and the Congregation of the Clergy and the Congregation for Catholic Education and the bishops in communion at Vatican II and the Bishops in communion at Trent and every other authoritative document or council that has ever addressed the subject about who can recieve Holy Orders are also just passing on their take it or leave it opinions as well?

The speculation that the church may change its teaching on Holy Orders at sometime in the future is a novel doctrine and as such not appropriate for me or anyone else to repeat beacuse it can lead the faithful into wrong beliefs or unfounded doubts about the church and its hierarachy. I am under no obligation what-so-ever to teach and or believe anything that the church has never taught which includes the unsubstantiated belief that someday women may recieve Holy Orders.

The church quite clearly says, without hesitation or modification, that only men can be ordained to be deacons, so why do you wish to silence me from stating what the church teaches and sanctions under penalty of canon law?

God Bless

PS I was not being aloof in my replies, as my tag implies, God willing I will be Ordained in 2006

PPS you say to mate toe and I say ta ma toe

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Deacon:

You’ve yet to cite a single document, from any source, stating, or even implying, that this issue is one of faith and not of discipline.

Again, why would the Holy Father bother having a Commission research this issue if it was as clear-cut as you say?
I’m tired of playing with you.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Crusader:

What would happen if Pope JPII released an encyclical that:

1.) Re-confirmed that there will never be ordained female priests?

2.) Infallibly proclaimed that there will never be ordained female deacons (not to be confused with the non-clerical deaconesses of the past)?

3.) Eliminated all females and those men would could never qualify to be a priest or deacon from being altar servers?

Would the Church lose or gain members?

It would gain members. By the way he has already done 1)

 

[Crusader]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Deacon:

You’ve yet to cite a single document, from any source, stating, or even implying, that this issue is one of faith and not of discipline.

Again, why would the Holy Father bother having a Commission research this issue if it was as clear-cut as you say?
I’m tired of playing with you.

My guess the Pope is slowly building the case to outlaw female deacons once and for all. You’re right though, deacon2006 is making comments not supported by Church actions.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

And by the way, citing a document that simply states “women cannot be ordained deacons,” with no qualifications, won’t cut it as documented proof that this is a matter of faith, and not discipline.

If one read just about any pre-Conciliar document on, say, altar servers, they would read similar condemnations about having women serve these positions too. Lo and behold . . .

 

[Deacon2006]

The straw man you have proposed is that my position is one of dogamatic faith. I have never claimed such a thing. I am completely baffled by the incessant attempt to prove something that isn’t part of my position.

I fully accept as a matter of religious assent that what the church ordinarily teaches as true is in fact true. The church teaches that only men can be ordained as deacons. I assent to this truth and I in turn teach this truth to others. So what’s the problem?

I realise that you want everyone to believe that the absence of a defide statement gives us the ability to entertain a myriad of things, one of which maybe that the church may decide to change it teachings on Holy Orders. But that is simply an opinion and not a truth taught in anyway by the church.

If you believe that something must be de fide to be true or if you are suggesting that the church cannot demand religious assent without dogma pronouncements to the turths it teaches, you are dead wrong.

If the pope wishes to provide additional pastoral guidance on Holy Orders by making another element de fide then so be it. However it is without question that each and every dogmatic truth of the church was known to be true by the church long before it was ever declared dogma.

Relgious assent of the ordinary teaching expects us to accept as true what the church teaches as true and we are under no obligation to accept the speculations contained on web sites or scholarly journals if the church has not taught that this speculation is the true position of the church.

God Bless

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

The by all means, O Deacon, show us where the Church even implies that religious assent is required for the belief that women canot be ordained to the diaconate.

I suppose the Vatican Commission set up to investigate this issue was/is in a state of material heresy fo daring to even question this article of our faith!

Oh well. Now I believe it! If Deacon 2006 says it, it must be true!

:bowdown:

 

[katherine2]

Crusader:

What would happen if Pope JPII released an encyclical that:

3.) Eliminated all females and those men would could never qualify to be a priest or deacon from being altar servers?

Would the Church lose or gain members?

We have a wonderful young man in my parish who is an altar server. He is a great faithfilled witness to Christ. He is also mentally disabled and does not qualify to be a candidate for the priesthood or diaconate. If some [self edited term I would like to use] said he could no longer serve, I wouldn’t leave the Church, but someone might be surprised at the fury of an old lady.

 

[Crusader]

katherine2:

We have a wonderful young man in my parish who is an altar server. He is a great faithfilled witness to Christ. He is also mentally disabled and does not qualify to be a candidate for the priesthood or diaconate. If some [self edited term I would like to use] said he could no longer serve, I wouldn’t leave the Church, but someone might be surprised at the fury of an old lady.

All altar server slots should go to those males who might just have vocations to the priesthood or permanent diaconate…

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

All altar server slots should go to those males who might just have vocations to the priesthood or permanent diaconate…

Woah, Nelly! I think you’re going a bit too far here, Crusader. It’s always been customary for ordinary lay males to serve as servers, even in the pre-Vatican II days.

The Church has never said that all servers should be prospective candidates for the ordained priesthood. Be careful, lest you go to the same self-righteous extreme that Deacon2006 has.

 

[Deacon2006]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Oh well. Now I believe it! If Deacon 2006 says it, it must be true!

Put your faith and your intellectual development in the hands of the church and not in your own opinions.

The church teaches In the CCC.

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

A recent example of this type of teaching on deacons is found in The Dogmatic Constitution of the Church .

“Since these duties, so very necessary to the life of the Church, can be fulfilled only with difficulty in many regions in accordance with the discipline of the Latin Church as it exists today, the diaconate can in the future be restored as a proper and permanent rank of the hierarchy. It pertains to the competent territorial bodies of bishops, of one kind or another, with the approval of the Supreme Pontiff, to decide whether and where it is opportune for such deacons to be established for the care of souls. With the consent of the Roman Pontiff, this diaconate can, in the future, be conferred upon men of more mature age, even upon those living in the married state. It may also be conferred upon suitable young men, for whom the law of celibacy must remain intact.”

You are required to assent to this teaching. However I am not required to even acknowledge your speculation that the this teaching is just for now and may change without any evidence to support it.

BTW, theological commisions that survey the historical teachings of the church as an intellectual and pastoral resource for the pope and faithful in no way proves that the mind of the church is not clearly taught already.

God Bless

 

[Deacon2006]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Woah, Nelly! I think you’re going a bit too far here, Crusader. It’s always been customary for ordinary lay males to serve as servers, even in the pre-Vatican II days.

The Church has never said that all servers should be prospective candidates for the ordained priesthood. Be careful, lest you go to the same self-righteous extreme that Deacon2006 has.

I think you two should spend more time developing your heart and mind and less time making up doctrines and detracting from other peoples reputations.

God Bless

 

[katherine2]

All altar server slots should go to those males who might just have vocations to the priesthood or permanent diaconate…

And many pastors are quite capable of doing the above and still able to find a role (“slots”, as you say) for others. That is the reason the Church leaves this to each pastor rather than some rigid universal rule inappropriate for a particular local community.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Deacon2006:

I assent fully to the decrees of the Second Vatican Council.

But the decree you cited does not say that women can never be ordained to the diaconate, or never have been. It simply says that men can be ordained to the diaconate, without even touching the subject of whether or not women ever can be.

Likewise, I could cite Church documents saying that “only men can become instituted lectors or acolytes.” I can cite similar documents forbidding women even from serving at the altar. None of which goes to prove that these offices cannot ever be fulfilled by women.

Sorry, Deacon, you lose. This is not de fide, neither by extraordinary, or Ordinary, Magisterium.

For a balanced, and unquestionably orthodox, take on this issue, see the following, from EWTN’s website.

 

[Deacon2006]

The church teaches:

That only men can recieve Holy Orders

*The church does not teach: *

That this point is open for discussion and can change at some time in the future.

The absence of a negative does not prove your point. The church does not expect us to be constantly speculating about what she does not publically teach but instead expects humble assent to what she does in fact teach.

God Bless

PS liturgical reform is not an adequate example when we are talking about form and matter of a Sacrament. Try to find examples where the church has ever changed the matter of a valid sacrament. I won’t be holding my breath while I wait.

 

[katherine2]

The church teaches:

That only men can recieve Holy Orders

No. The Church teaches only men can recieve priestly ordination. Show me the teaching document on diaconial ordination. Even EWTN considers it a point of discussion.

 

[martino]

Crusader:

What would happen if Pope JPII released an encyclical that:

1.) Re-confirmed that there will never be ordained female priests?

2.) Infallibly proclaimed that there will never be ordained female deacons (not to be confused with the non-clerical deaconesses of the past)?

3.) Eliminated all females and those men would could never qualify to be a priest or deacon from being altar servers?

Would the Church lose or gain members?

1 & 2 are already done! I would like to see him start formally excommunicating people.

 

[DominvsVobiscvm]

Deacon:

Show me where the Church has ever said thaqt the matter for sacred orders, for each and every one of them, was a man.

C’mon; one source only!

I dare ya!

The church does not expect us to be constantly speculating about what she does not publically teach

But we certainly may. Otherwise our theologians would be out of business!

but instead expects humble assent to what she does in fact teach.

And she does not, at present, teach that women cannot be ordained deacons, as a matter of faith and not discipline.

Saying it does not make it so, Fake-Deacon2006.

The Pope has set up a comittee to investigate this issue. It’s thus considered an open question by him, and by the CDF.

Can you imagine the Holy Father setting up a Commission to examine whether or not abortion was sinful, or whether or not God was really a Trinity, or whether or not Hell existed?

Of course not. Because those are all already considered to be matters of faith.

It’s simply not the same case with women being ordained deacons. Or for the existence of Limbo, which the Pope has also recently asked a Commission to investigate and report on.

Sorry, Fake-Deacon. Saying it does not make it so!

 

[Crusader]

1 & 2 are already done! I would like to see him start formally excommunicating people.

NEITHER 1 nor 2 has been done.

Suggesting that they have does nothing but lend ammo to those ignoring #1 and pushing (at all costs) for #2.

 

[Crusader]

DominvsVobiscvm:

Woah, Nelly! I think you’re going a bit too far here, Crusader. It’s always been customary for ordinary lay males to serve as servers, even in the pre-Vatican II days.

The Church has never said that all servers should be prospective candidates for the ordained priesthood. Be careful, lest you go to the same self-righteous extreme that Deacon2006 has.

I would think 90%+ of all altar servers who become priests or deacons are “ordinary lay males.” The balance are already seminarians or those in a diaconate formation…