Extremely thought provoking. I think harsh sexism disguised as “feminism”, more (not necessarily “better”) job opportunities for women, and a septic popular culture all took their toll on the religious orders and societies.
Wow I could almost smell your righteous indignation that time. I particularly enjoyed the personal attack, it seems that so many conspiracy minded reactionaries now a days have forgotten how to use the cutting invective.
Knickers in a twist again? Come on here with that nickname (that suggests you are actually in a diaconate formation) and you had better expect some criticism of your rather arrogant positions.
Your fingers are writing checks that neither your knowledge nor your standing can cash. You would find it better to follow what the Church’s actually directs and not your own notions based on interpretations and conclusions you are unqualified to make.
Deacon2006 said:
Again your interpretation is worthless. It’s the Church’s opinion that counts – not individual opinions from people like yourself.
Placing one’s ego ahead of the Church leads to arrogance, and ultimately, ignorance.
I like the chutspah but you miss the real light of the church when you believe that ordinary truth is something apart from dogma.
Amen.In my area, altar servers — boy or girl — are slowly becoming extinct. When I grew up, there were four altar servers at every weekend Mass and at least two every weekday Mass back when there were three or four in the morning. Now, we’re lucky to have weekday Masses and there are never any altar servers.
What went wrong? Part of it was the lousy catechesis after Vatican II. The generation raising the current children are so devoid of the importance of the Church on earth (most would be put in shock if they were told that it is the “one, true Church”) that they have no realization of the honor of having their boys and girls serving at the altar. That situation has led to the reduction of priest candidates as well. The only way you’ll get altar servers — especially the boys — is to have parents who get them to do it and, if they’re going to a Catholic school, which most likely they are, school officials make sure they’re showing up to serve. There are many things we were all made to do when we were children that we didn’t necessarily want to do that we thank are parents now for. Serving at Mass is definitely a reason to be a bit assertive toward your children.
And there are parents who don’t want their boys serving with girls because they believe it should only be boys. Unfortunately, it’s keeping some boys from learning about what the priesthood is all about (of course, as long as you have a priest who outwardly shows that his vocation is a joy and a blessing).
As for the “cooties” thing, well, they are hard to describe. However, when you have the time to watch “Dexter’s Laboratory” on the Cartoon Network, check out the one episode that showed him being attacked by “cooties” after he snuck into his sister DeeDee’s room. They’re actually quite cute.
John
It’s not going to happen. Only men can receive Holy Orders. There are three distinct levels of Holy Orders: deacon, priest, bishop. Therefore, the ordained office of deacon is only open to men.
SentimentalGent said:
As far as I know altar girls are allowed , why then eliminate them.
If you look hard enough you will someone that will dispute every teaching of the church or find a bishop to support every heresy. The mere presence of dispute does not make something an open question or worse yet not true. Even dogmatic pronouncements don’t eliminate dispute from the ranks of the clergy or theologians either. The fact there is dispute only proves that humans are flawed and rebellious.
If you reduce your conclusion to its basic precept then you claiming that before Vatican 1 the faithful could not know with certainty that what the church taught was true because it didn’t have a dogma formula establish the truth. The church does not have to teach from negatives but can simply just say the positive ie only men can be ordained as deacons, which is the only message that the church has ever taught on this matter.
Really, please produce the dogmatic statement that supports that the CDF has authority to make dogmatic statements. Because they don’t only the pope and all the bishop in communion with him have that authority.
I know you agree with me on the substance, I have read many of your posts before and see that you are a wise and thoughtful poster however I am not stating anything here that the church doesn’t state for herself. She maintains only men can be deacons in every document she has released on the subject. I repeat that statement because the church has publicly taught it. I am bound not to teach any contrary doctrine be it either a contradiction or a modification of that public teaching.
I like your style but as I said I do not have to produce a document to satisfy the narrowness of the challenge when every document on the subject broadly claims that only men can be ordained to be deacons, for that is all that I am saying here.
I have never claimed that the church has used the de fide statement about women and the deaconate only that the immutable truth of a teaching does not require a declaration to make it true. The mere absence of a de fide statement does not mean the faithful is not bound to the ordinary teaching of the Church.
Since you have selected the username “Deacon2006” I have every right to ask you to explain yourself and your ordained status. As an orthodox Catholic, I would want to know if I am conversing with an ordained man, so that I may change the tenor of the discussion accordingly, should I need to.