What would make you become Catholic?

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thecoach said:
Perhaps Traditions that can actually be found in Scripture?
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How do you think the Scriptures came to be? It was through Oral Tradition. The first book that is in the NT was written about 20 years or so about the death of Jesus. Without Oral Tradition, there wouldn’t be what you would now call the Bible. Which Traditions are you speaking of that should be found in the Bible? There are many in the Bible in fact but not all. Not everything that needs to be said about our faith is in the Bible…The Bible even says this…

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
 
curtishouse29 said:
How do you think the Scriptures came to be? It was through Oral Tradition. The first book that is in the NT was written about 20 years or so about the death of Jesus. Without Oral Tradition, there wouldn’t be what you would now call the Bible. Which Traditions are you speaking of that should be found in the Bible? There are many in the Bible in fact but not all. Not everything that needs to be said about our faith is in the Bible…The Bible even says this…

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
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True, so you would think traditions that came even after the wrting would agree with it. That is not the case. Even after the oral tradtion, Peter’s supremacy is far from clear cut, for example.
 
O.S.Luke said:
A table open to the baptized - I am not saying an “open” table - but a table open to those properly baptized and having confessed and repented of their sin.

I cannot see Jesus refusing anyone who is baptized to receive Him at the Table. That is is why I am not Catholic.

O+
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The thing is nobody (not even Catholics) can partake in the Holy Eucharist unless they are in a state of Grace (no Mortal Sin). If you have done all the steps you have done as listed above; been validly baptized, been to Confession, and done pennance, you are Catholic my friend! Maybe not a confirmed Catholic (you didnt say anything about confirmation) but you are seen in the eyes of God and the Catholic church as a member of the church that Christ established.
 
curtishouse29 said:
The thing is nobody (not even Catholics) can partake in the Holy Eucharist unless they are in a state of Grace (no Mortal Sin). If you have done all the steps you have done as listed above; been validly baptized, been to Confession, and done pennance, you are Catholic my friend! Maybe not a confirmed Catholic (you didnt say anything about confirmation) but you are seen in the eyes of God and the Catholic church as a member of the church that Christ established.
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Wasnt the original version of the Lord’s Supper meal celebrated in homes? Many homes, and I am sure many variations…now there is only one valid one?
 
thecoach said:
If the Bible is a tradition, why does your church state is a separate? It takes as its foundation Scripture AND Tradition.
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I’m not sure I understand your question.

Jesus instituted a Church. This Church was entrusted with a “deposit of faith.” These are Church Traditions (Capital T for emphasis)

Some were oral, some were written down. All can be traced to the apostles in seed form. One person brought up the fact that Papal “supremacy” is not found explicitly in Church Tradition, however neither is the doctrine of the Trinity or the hypostatic union. All three of these existed in seed form, and developed more fully as the need to define the doctrines more clearly arose.
 
thecoach said:
Wasnt the original version of the Lord’s Supper meal celebrated in homes? Many homes, and I am sure many variations…now there is only one valid one?
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How are you sure there were many variations? Is this spelled out specifically in Scripture or tradition (Church Fathers?)

Also, there are different “rites” in existence in the Church today, and in some places the mass is still held in secret for fear of persecution.
 
thecoach said:
True, so you would think traditions that came even after the wrting would agree with it. That is not the case. Even after the oral tradtion, Peter’s supremacy is far from clear cut, for example.
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What about Peter’s supremacy do you find not clear cut? It even states it in the Bible that the Keys were handed to Peter…

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I know that many non-catholic denominations try to interpret these verses to mean something other than what they actually say. When Jesus says, “That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”, I BELIEVE GOD. When Jesus says, " And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.", I BELIEVE GOD. There doesnt seem to be any dispute whatsoever if you just believe the Words of God. When people with no Authority start interpreting Scripture to suit their own doctrines, that is when everything starts to not be “clear cut.” For the first 1500 years, ALL Christians understood this to be true and it was about as decisive an understanding as you can get. Now we have tens of thousands of denominations and of course it seems not clear cut. Thats what happens when thousands of different people have thousands of different interpretations instead of just believing God and the Authority He left to Peter and Christ’s church. God bless.

Curtis
 
curtishouse29 said:
What about Peter’s supremacy do you find not clear cut? It even states it in the Bible that the Keys were handed to Peter…

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I know that many non-catholic denominations try to interpret these verses to mean something other than what they actually say. When Jesus says, “That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”, I BELIEVE GOD. When Jesus says, " And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.", I BELIEVE GOD. There doesnt seem to be any dispute whatsoever if you just believe the Words of God. When people with no Authority start interpreting Scripture to suit their own doctrines, that is when everything starts to not be “clear cut.” For the first 1500 years, ALL Christians understood this to be true and it was about as decisive an understanding as you can get. Now we have tens of thousands of denominations and of course it seems not clear cut. Thats what happens when thousands of different people have thousands of different interpretations instead of just believing God and the Authority He left to Peter and Christ’s church. God bless.

Curtis
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The Greek is not so clear cut, not is the scholarly study of the Greek.
 
thecoach said:
Wasnt the original version of the Lord’s Supper meal celebrated in homes? Many homes, and I am sure many variations…now there is only one valid one?
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I’m not sure if it ever said in Scripture whether they were in homes or not…Those times, with the constant persecutions and such, are much different times than we live in today (at least for most of us). But the Mass we celebrate today is rooted in Sacred Scripture…This link breaks it down very nicely I think…

wctc.net/~mudndirt/Scripture%20in%20mass.htm
 
thecoach said:
The Greek is not so clear cut, not is the scholarly study of the Greek.
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The prevailing language during that time was Greek actually and they all believed that the Keys were handed to Peter by Jesus Christ Himself. The specific Greek dialect they used back then though was Koine Greek and is now a defunct language. This is exactly why Jesus gave the Authority to Peter. When questions arose such as this, the church needed Authoratitive interpretation. If the Catholic church didnt have the Authority, it would be nothing more than another denomination in the sea of denominationalism.
 
curtishouse29 said:
The prevailing language during that time was Greek actually and they all believed that the Keys were handed to Peter by Jesus Christ Himself. The specific Greek dialect they used back then though was Koine Greek and is now a defunct language. This is exactly why Jesus gave the Authority to Peter. When questions arose such as this, the church needed Authoratitive interpretation. If the Catholic church didnt have the Authority, it would be nothing more than another denomination in the sea of denominationalism.
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Are you saying Jesus spoke to Peter in Greek? Thats a new one…most of teh Catholic apologists go with the Aramaic straw man argument. And if they all believed that, why was James the head at Jerusalem and not Peter?
 
thecoach said:
A Catholic link, Im sure it would…lol
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A Catholic link quoting Catholic Scripture about Catholic Mass…I dont know how you could not believe Catholic Traditions but believe in the books of the Bible that were selected by Catholics due to their Authority handed down by Jesus Christ.
 
curtishouse29 said:
A Catholic link quoting Catholic Scripture about Catholic Mass…I dont know how you could not believe Catholic Traditions but believe in the books of the Bible that were selected by Catholics due to their Authority handed down by Jesus Christ.
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There was no catholic church, there was A church.
 
thecoach said:
Are you saying Jesus spoke to Peter in Greek? Thats a new one…most of teh Catholic apologists go with the Aramaic straw man argument. And if they all believed that, why was James the head at Jerusalem and not Peter?
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No I am not saying that Jesus spoke to Peter in Greek. We were just on the topic of the Greek language and, as we venture into the NT past the Gospels, the translation switches to Greek thanks to the Apostle Paul. Sorry if I confused you somewhat.
 
curtishouse29 said:
No I am not saying that Jesus spoke to Peter in Greek. We were just on the topic of the Greek language and, as we venture into the NT past the Gospels, the translation switches to Greek thanks to the Apostle Paul. Sorry if I confused you somewhat.
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No prob…but you didnt answer the last question though.
 
thecoach said:
There was no catholic church, there was A church.
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There was THE church…There was no other church in town…I think this quote sums it up quite well…St. Ignatius of Antioch
Also called Theophorus (ho Theophoros); born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome between 98 and 117.
from THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE SMYRAEANS
CHAPTER VIII.–LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.
“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” (110 AD)

You see the Catholic church was mentioned by that name in, at the latest, circa 110 AD. If it wasn’t the Catholic church that Christ founded with Peter as the head, which church are you speaking about?
 
curtishouse29 said:
There was THE church…There was no other church in town…I think this quote sums it up quite well…St. Ignatius of Antioch
Also called Theophorus (ho Theophoros); born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome between 98 and 117.
from THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE SMYRAEANS
CHAPTER VIII.–LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.
“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” (110 AD)

You see the Catholic church was mentioned by that name in, at the latest, circa 110 AD. If it wasn’t the Catholic church that Christ founded with Peter as the head, which church are you speaking about?
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still avoiding the Jerusalem question?
 
thecoach said:
No prob…but you didnt answer the last question though.
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To be intellectually honest about your last question, I do not know the answer. I have never really looked into it but I will look into the question and when I have reached an accurate conclusion, I will get back to you.
 
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