O
oneofmany
Guest
I am not being smug so stop telling me what I feel. Do you have the link to what you said about registering the chidren at a parish?
- Status
O
oneofmany
Guest
Quit telling me why I did it. You don’t know me so you don’t know why I did it. Do you have a link to putting them in direct danger of hell by baptizing them? Seems you are being dramatic now.
V
VeritasLuxMea
Guest
I don’t know what it’s going to take to get through to you here. The fact is that you most certainly did not adhere to the Catechism of the Church re:baptism. Everyone is telling you this, even those who are expressing sympathy. I, too, would be sympathetic, if you actually admitted it, but for some reason you refuse to do so.
V
VivienneJ
Guest
If you had gone to the link I posted earlier, which links to the Code of Canon Law, straight from the Vatican, and clicked on ‘next’ a couple of times, you would have got to this:
***THE PROOF AND REGISTRATION OF THE CONFERRAL OF BAPTISM
Can. 875 A person who administers baptism is to take care that, unless a sponsor is present, there is at least a witness who can attest to the conferral of the baptism.
Can. 877 §1. The pastor of the place where the baptism is celebrated must carefully and without any delay record in the baptismal register the names of the baptized, with mention made of the minister, parents, sponsors, witnesses, if any, the place and date of the conferral of the baptism, and the date and place of birth.
Can. 878 If the baptism was not administered by the pastor or in his presence, the minister of baptism, whoever it is, must inform the pastor of the parish in which it was administered of the conferral of the baptism, so that he records the baptism according to the norm of ⇒ can. 877, §1.***
Here is the link to this information: vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P2Z.HTM
Again, please, please take the necessary steps to inform all those concerned of what has taken place. My strong suggestion is to start with your priest (hopefully not the one who passed that very flippant remark about “hair washing” in your first post) who will be able to guide you through what else needs to be done.
I will affirm that I do understand your concern in this matter, but the fact remains that these children were not in “imminent danger of death” at the time of your conferral of baptism. (In a sense any of us is in constantly ‘under threat of death’, but that is not what is implied in the Code of Canon Law.)
There is an appearance of smugness in that, even though many of us have posted the circumstances in which a lay person may ‘confer the sacrament of baptism’, you do not appear, from your posts, to have any understanding of the fact that the situation of your grandchildren did not fit the Laws of the church.
V
VivienneJ
Guest
I begin to understand better, I think, where you get your firm assertion that you have done nothing wrong, you constantly say
V. Who can Baptize?
1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. the intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. the Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.
Which comes from here: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3L.HTM
But please note the definition of what a Catechism is: A catechism is the name given to a written work that contains a summary of all the beliefs of the faith that is used as a teaching tool.
This can be found here: usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/
A summary of the beliefs, but it is not the Law of how the beliefs are to be put into action, as it were.
A few pages further into the Catechism (on the Vatican’s site) is this information which explains what the effects (results) of baptism are (and this is where the anxiety and outrage of the posters on this thread is coming from:
***Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."71 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."72
1268 The baptized have become “living stones” to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood."73 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.
1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.75 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to “obey and submit” to the Church’s leaders,76 holding them in respect and affection.77 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.78
1270 “Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church” and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.79
The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."81
An indelible spiritual mark . . .
1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.82 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84
1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) "for the day of redemption."85 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."86 The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.***
Again, I urge you to read the sections before and after the ones I have posted and inform yourself better on this matter.
You are reading this:
V. Who can Baptize?
1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. the intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. the Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.
Which comes from here: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3L.HTM
But please note the definition of what a Catechism is: A catechism is the name given to a written work that contains a summary of all the beliefs of the faith that is used as a teaching tool.
This can be found here: usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/
A summary of the beliefs, but it is not the Law of how the beliefs are to be put into action, as it were.
A few pages further into the Catechism (on the Vatican’s site) is this information which explains what the effects (results) of baptism are (and this is where the anxiety and outrage of the posters on this thread is coming from:
***Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."71 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."72
1268 The baptized have become “living stones” to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood."73 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light."74 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.
1269 Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us.75 From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to “obey and submit” to the Church’s leaders,76 holding them in respect and affection.77 Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.78
1270 “Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church” and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.79
The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."80 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."81
An indelible spiritual mark . . .
1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.82 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.83 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.84
1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) "for the day of redemption."85 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."86 The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"87 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.***
Again, I urge you to read the sections before and after the ones I have posted and inform yourself better on this matter.
V
VivienneJ
Guest
Let’s just stop this right here, the fact that children get into accidents and die does not mean that children are therefore in imminent danger of death - surely you can see the difference?
Yes, the Church encourages parents to Baptise their children as soon as possible, but also note that in cases where it is felt that there is not a reasonable chance that these children will be brought up in the Catholic faith, baptism is to be delayed. The Church must have a very good reason for stating this.
B
boymama
Guest
I didn’t read all of the responses, but let me share a story with you.
My inlaws are ELCA. My brother-in-law and his wife (and their kids) are Jehovah Witness.
My inlaws had my neices (my nephews are from SIL’s first marriage) baptized Lutheran behind their parents’ backs. Not only that, but they were taking them to Lutheran service and not telling the parents.
My brother-in-law and his wife are no longer speaking at all to my inlaws. They haven’t spoken in months. They were incredibly hurt by my inlaws’ lack of respect for their beliefs.
My point is this: you raised your children now they need to raise theirs.
You can share the faith through being a living example and answering questions. You cannot force your beliefs onto others. Even parents can’t do that as is evident in the fact children leave their parents’ faiths all of the time. All you can do is lead by example and show them how beautiful Catholicism is!
My inlaws are ELCA. My brother-in-law and his wife (and their kids) are Jehovah Witness.
My inlaws had my neices (my nephews are from SIL’s first marriage) baptized Lutheran behind their parents’ backs. Not only that, but they were taking them to Lutheran service and not telling the parents.
My brother-in-law and his wife are no longer speaking at all to my inlaws. They haven’t spoken in months. They were incredibly hurt by my inlaws’ lack of respect for their beliefs.
My point is this: you raised your children now they need to raise theirs.
You can share the faith through being a living example and answering questions. You cannot force your beliefs onto others. Even parents can’t do that as is evident in the fact children leave their parents’ faiths all of the time. All you can do is lead by example and show them how beautiful Catholicism is!
T
ThyKingdomCome
Guest
To the OP: This thread has taken a pretty contentious turn. At this point you are probably feeling pretty defensive because you have been criticized very quickly. I want to say that while I agree with the others that you should not have baptized the babies, I understand that your intent was good. You were hoping that you could allow them to be free from original sin - that is a good thing. I have gone back and forth on understanding/agreeing with the Church’s rules about baptism, but the fact is that they are the rules, and we are obliged to follow them. Also, as the one in the role of parent (I have many years before my kids are old enough to give me grandchildren), I believe that respect for parental authority is one of the most important things that parents need. So in that way too, I recognize that it isn’t right to do something so monumental behind a parent’s back. That said, I mentioned that I recognized your good intentions in baptizing your grandchildren. I can imagine how it must feel to be in your shoes, and I suspect that a part of me would want to do the same thing that you did. I assume that you were not aware of the rules of the Church regarding baptism when you baptized the grandchildren, so it makes me more sympathetic to your current dilemma.
So this is what I would do if I were in your shoes: First, I would prayerfully recognize that I had made a mistake - both in not following the rules of the Church, and in going behind the parents back with something so important to their child. I would find it in myself to feel remorse about it, and then I would tell the parents. Telling them is important, because it is useful information for them and for the children, that they deserve to know. Actually, if I understand correctly, this is your husband’s son, so maybe he should be the one to do this? Anyway, I would sit them down and tell them what you did - explaining that you thought it was a good thing at the time, but that you are sorry for going behind their backs. I would say that I respect their parental authority, and realize that I should have addressed my concerns with them up front from the start. I would also promise to not do anything like that (behind their backs) again. I would do my best to explain to them that my reasons were for my great love for my faith and my desire to share it with the children. If the parents are furious, I would let it go at that, for now, and work on rebuilding whatever trust they feel they have lost, and save the next part for the future. If they are understanding, I would ask them if they would consider letting me instruct the children in Catholicism. If they agree, I would go about teaching them religious ed myself, taking them to church as allowed, and bringing them to whatever the parents allow me to at the church. The reason I say to teach them religious ed myself is that you mentioned your great-nephew’s lack of understanding about the faith. Sending a child to a religious ed program at a parish is simply not enough. So if you really want them to understand their faith, you will have to be the one to teach it to them. We can give you plenty of advice on how to do this without too much trouble if the parents are willing to let you take on this responsibility.
If they say no, I would have to respect their wishes, and I would be careful to make sure they learned that I supported their authority. I’d do as another poster mentioned, and just live as good a Catholic life that I can, and be a witness to it in my actions.
So this is what I would do if I were in your shoes: First, I would prayerfully recognize that I had made a mistake - both in not following the rules of the Church, and in going behind the parents back with something so important to their child. I would find it in myself to feel remorse about it, and then I would tell the parents. Telling them is important, because it is useful information for them and for the children, that they deserve to know. Actually, if I understand correctly, this is your husband’s son, so maybe he should be the one to do this? Anyway, I would sit them down and tell them what you did - explaining that you thought it was a good thing at the time, but that you are sorry for going behind their backs. I would say that I respect their parental authority, and realize that I should have addressed my concerns with them up front from the start. I would also promise to not do anything like that (behind their backs) again. I would do my best to explain to them that my reasons were for my great love for my faith and my desire to share it with the children. If the parents are furious, I would let it go at that, for now, and work on rebuilding whatever trust they feel they have lost, and save the next part for the future. If they are understanding, I would ask them if they would consider letting me instruct the children in Catholicism. If they agree, I would go about teaching them religious ed myself, taking them to church as allowed, and bringing them to whatever the parents allow me to at the church. The reason I say to teach them religious ed myself is that you mentioned your great-nephew’s lack of understanding about the faith. Sending a child to a religious ed program at a parish is simply not enough. So if you really want them to understand their faith, you will have to be the one to teach it to them. We can give you plenty of advice on how to do this without too much trouble if the parents are willing to let you take on this responsibility.
If they say no, I would have to respect their wishes, and I would be careful to make sure they learned that I supported their authority. I’d do as another poster mentioned, and just live as good a Catholic life that I can, and be a witness to it in my actions.
M
maryjk
Guest
The problem is, you have yet to admit that you made a mistake. Which tells me that you would do it again. You don’t think you did anything wrong.
So we are back to your original question, What’s a Catholic grandparent to do?
You should remember what you most likely told your children as they were growing up.
If you have to hide what you have done, don’t do it.
OR
Secrets that you can never tell are never good secrets.
O
oneofmany
Guest
I agree now that I know the rules I made a mistake and when they have more children I won’t do it again.
As far as telling them I think that needs to wait awhile. At Christmas we bought them bean bags and videos for kids. One video was about a saint with the same middle name as one child and the other one was about 3 crosses but they both were in the children’s section so the kids could understand them, on their level.
After Christmas they came over and the oldest ran up to me and whispered that, “mommy didn’t like what you got me for Christmas.” I said she didn’t like the bean bags? He said, “no the DVD tapes.” I think I need more time to assess where she is at. I don’t want to completely chase them off and the door will be closed for any further talk about the faith in the future.
As far as telling them I think that needs to wait awhile. At Christmas we bought them bean bags and videos for kids. One video was about a saint with the same middle name as one child and the other one was about 3 crosses but they both were in the children’s section so the kids could understand them, on their level.
After Christmas they came over and the oldest ran up to me and whispered that, “mommy didn’t like what you got me for Christmas.” I said she didn’t like the bean bags? He said, “no the DVD tapes.” I think I need more time to assess where she is at. I don’t want to completely chase them off and the door will be closed for any further talk about the faith in the future.
S
SAVINGRACE
Guest
I believe you are an interested, involved and loving nana to your grandchildren and only want what is best for their spiritual health. There are many grandparents and parents who don’t give a c**p about their children or grandchildren.
Your intentions were noble but misguided.
May God Bless you and your family.
O
oneofmany
Guest
Thank you, that means a lot to me. My hubby is thinking of offering to pay for the kids education if they go to Catholic school. They don’t like the school system in our city and if they don’t get them in a magnet school maybe they will consider other alternatives.I believe you are an interested, involved and loving nana to your grandchildren and only want what is best for their spiritual health. There are many grandparents and parents who don’t give a c**p about their children or grandchildren.
Your intentions were noble but misguided.
May God Bless you and your family.
If my DIL can meet other Catholic mothers and become friends with them she may start to like our church. If she can get to know other people who care for her and if she isn’t treated harshly----like some Catholics have treated me on here----she may start to feel more inclined to look into our faith and what it has to offer. I and my hubby need to pray for them. I know our son is open to it. Thanks.
M
marywarfield
Guest
I think you are all being very harsh on these grandparents who are doing the very best they can. I can empathize strongly. My underage daughter got pregnant with a man we didn’t even know. Six months later when she was 18, even though we asked her not to, she married him. Had only known him two months when she became pregnant. In any case they were married IN the Church, he promised to raise his kids Catholic she fully believed that was going to happen.
What I didn’t know at the time and I believe she did was both of HIS parents HAD been Catholic, had renounced the faith and gone off with some type of gospel or wayside or something type church we don’t even know what it is or anything. but they are rabidly anti Catholic and raised their son to be the same.
So here we were with the Catholic daughter we had spent every dime we had putting through private catholic school, a member of a third order of Carmelites married to a man who lied about his beliefs.
The reason we found out was his father spent the night one night at our house, the first time I had ever met the man, on his way traveling down to his son’s place at school. He got up in the morning, took one look at our family altar and literally got in a fist fight with the statues and the icons. He was ATTACKING them and calling them every name in the book, just filthy names. I was in fear for my life, grabbed my cast iron skillet and went to wake my husband up who calmed him down and got him out of the house. Our priest told us to never let him in again.
By that time by granddaughter was almost one, just our darling and we were her primary day care, as my daughter worked and son in law worked and so Grandpa and I babysat. The parents kept saying they wanted her baptised, but just hadn’t had a chance to do so. They had told the priest this in front of witnesses. So when the child became deathly ill with the flu, having seizures, and we had to call an ambulance, yes, I baptized her on the spot with holy water I had from the Carmelites. I just did it, it was automatic. And I told the parents and the priest.
So at that point, we felt a real obligation and began teaching the child her prayers and taking her to Mass. And when we did, all hell broke out with his family, they became furious, he became hostile and abusive to us, abusive to his wife, abusive to his daughter, and my daughter started becoming distant with us. Unbeknownst to us, she was pregnant again and afraid to leave him, he was threatening to take custody of the kids if she did, she was jobless, and so what she did was reject US and the Church. The last time I spoke with her was three days ago. She sent me a text message telling me if I spoke to her again she would blow my addled brains out with a .357.
I’m afraid she is lost to us altogether, my husband and I have constant novenas going on, we are not allowed to see our granddaughter who is now two and a half, and the parents spend all their time with his parents who explain the “real faith” to them.
I have been told I was correct to baptize the baby, the parents had expressed real determination to get it done, she was in danger of death, we had never been given any indication the father was anti catholic prior.
Until you have BEEN the Catholic grandparent, you really don’t know the pain, so perhaps a little compassion for the OP would be in order. Just saying. I see you guys condemning the OP know the rules but not the spirit of the faith.
What I didn’t know at the time and I believe she did was both of HIS parents HAD been Catholic, had renounced the faith and gone off with some type of gospel or wayside or something type church we don’t even know what it is or anything. but they are rabidly anti Catholic and raised their son to be the same.
So here we were with the Catholic daughter we had spent every dime we had putting through private catholic school, a member of a third order of Carmelites married to a man who lied about his beliefs.
The reason we found out was his father spent the night one night at our house, the first time I had ever met the man, on his way traveling down to his son’s place at school. He got up in the morning, took one look at our family altar and literally got in a fist fight with the statues and the icons. He was ATTACKING them and calling them every name in the book, just filthy names. I was in fear for my life, grabbed my cast iron skillet and went to wake my husband up who calmed him down and got him out of the house. Our priest told us to never let him in again.
By that time by granddaughter was almost one, just our darling and we were her primary day care, as my daughter worked and son in law worked and so Grandpa and I babysat. The parents kept saying they wanted her baptised, but just hadn’t had a chance to do so. They had told the priest this in front of witnesses. So when the child became deathly ill with the flu, having seizures, and we had to call an ambulance, yes, I baptized her on the spot with holy water I had from the Carmelites. I just did it, it was automatic. And I told the parents and the priest.
So at that point, we felt a real obligation and began teaching the child her prayers and taking her to Mass. And when we did, all hell broke out with his family, they became furious, he became hostile and abusive to us, abusive to his wife, abusive to his daughter, and my daughter started becoming distant with us. Unbeknownst to us, she was pregnant again and afraid to leave him, he was threatening to take custody of the kids if she did, she was jobless, and so what she did was reject US and the Church. The last time I spoke with her was three days ago. She sent me a text message telling me if I spoke to her again she would blow my addled brains out with a .357.
I’m afraid she is lost to us altogether, my husband and I have constant novenas going on, we are not allowed to see our granddaughter who is now two and a half, and the parents spend all their time with his parents who explain the “real faith” to them.
I have been told I was correct to baptize the baby, the parents had expressed real determination to get it done, she was in danger of death, we had never been given any indication the father was anti catholic prior.
Until you have BEEN the Catholic grandparent, you really don’t know the pain, so perhaps a little compassion for the OP would be in order. Just saying. I see you guys condemning the OP know the rules but not the spirit of the faith.
M
maryjk
Guest
There is a HUGE difference between, “the child might have an accident” and “deathly ill.”
And then you told everyone. Again, a huge difference than, “I still can’t tell them.”
And if you read the entire thread, people were very understanding. UNTIL the grandparent refused to accept that what she did was wrong. All though now she agrees she shouldn’t have done it, and claims she won’t do it again, she STILL won’t tell the parents.
O
oneofmany
Guest
I know it’s all in the presentation and if I present it to her like some treated me on here it would only chase her away.
marywarfield----that must be heartbreaking for you. Perhaps your daughter will wake up soon and know what she is doing is bad for her soul and her children’s. She could very well leave her husband and get an annulment since he married her under false pretenses.
All you can do now is pray for her and your grandchildren.
R
Ral91
Guest
Please tell their mother sooner rather than later. If you leave it too long she might begin to question if you hid other things from her. I never had a relationship with one of my grandparents because of a dispute with my Father- from what I know it was ultimately my Grandfathers doing. To this day I have struggled to forgive him. He was too stubborn and proud to admit to something and apologise and ultimately my father found out anyway. It quite literally divided the family.
B
BlueEyedLady
Guest
If I found out that someone baptized by child they would never be alone with them again. If I found out that they baptized my child and then hid it from me in hopes of manipulating me into agreeing to expose my child to that religion so that I wouldn’t be angry about the baptism, they would never see my child again period, supervised or not.
R
Ral91
Guest
I wholeheartedly agree hitch is why I’d recommend coming lean sooner rather than later. It is an awful situation to be in.
B
BellsMom
Guest
This whole kerfuffle seems based on the idea that if an infant dies before baptism then god will…what?
S
ShanaA1984
Guest
Could not agree with you more BEL
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