What's a Catholic Grandparent to do?

[maryjk]

If I found out that someone baptized by child they would never be alone with them again. If I found out that they baptized my child and then hid it from me in hopes of manipulating me into agreeing to expose my child to that religion so that I wouldn’t be angry about the baptism, they would never see my child again period, supervised or not.

I’m with you.

 

[Kelfa28]

If I found out that someone baptized by child they would never be alone with them again. If I found out that they baptized my child and then hid it from me in hopes of manipulating me into agreeing to expose my child to that religion so that I wouldn’t be angry about the baptism, they would never see my child again period, supervised or not.

I couldn’t agree with you more.

I just don’t understand the lack of respect for someone else’s children. Even if they are a super close relative, like a grandchild or a nephew or niece…they aren’t your children.

My sister and her husband are lapsed Catholics. They have chosen to not baptize their child. I know if I decided to take it upon myself to baptize him and not say anything…and they found out about it? Well, I know I would never see my nephew, sister or BIL again. I’d also be on shaky ground with my parents as well.

I love them too much to disrespect their choice of parenting. If they choose to not baptize and not expose their child to the faith I have to respect that. Stampeding all over them because I’m concerned about the soul of my nephew is not the way to change hearts and minds.
All I can do is pray for them and be a good influence…with my marriage and the way I raise my children.

I look at it in another way.
I know I have my husband’s side of the family…who are not practicing Catholics but believe in other forms of Christianity or other things outside of Christianity.

I’d be livid if my daughter was taken to a service of my MIL’s, behind my back, and was encouraged to pray in tongues or taken to a religious ceremony at my SIL’s house and encouraged to participate.

Our vocation, as Catholics, is to evangelize and that does not mean we physically impose our faith upon others against their will (which is no parental permission for a child).
No, we are called to be good examples of the faith by living the faith for all to see, to defend the faith when we must and to pray for the souls who need praying for every single day.

That is how we win hearts and minds.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

This whole kerfuffle seems based on the idea that if an infant dies before baptism then god will…what?

We don’t know what exactly happens, but we do trust in His mercy. Nevertheless since we don’t know what happens, we should baptize them asap (following the correct protocol as stated in Canon Law) if we are planning on raising them in the Faith.
Catechism:

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Canon Law:

Can. 867 §1. Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks; as soon as possible after the birth or even before it, they are to go to the pastor to request the sacrament for their child and to be prepared properly for it.

§2. An infant in danger of death is to be baptized without delay.

The Truth is we do know that:
Catechism:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

This is important, though:
Canon Law:

Can. 868 §1. **For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;**

2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.

§2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.

Oneofmany, I know you had good intentions, as did your sister, I sympathize with you, but it wasn’t in line with what the Church tells us we need to do. The truth is your children are wrong in not taking care of the baptism of their children, and in not raising them in the Faith, but it is still something that cannot be solved by baptizing the children behind their back. In fact, there is a good chance that the baptism you did may not even be licit since their parents didn’t consent and it was not an emergency (see Canon Law above). If my grandchild was dying and I knew he/she had not been baptized, I would absolutely baptize him/her, even if my child and their spouse (the parents) did not want it, even if it meant they would never talk to me again, but this is not the case here. These children may go on to grow up and have the mark of baptism, with all the implications of that mark, and not know it, or even if they do know it, not have the tools to be able to live up to what it means. And yes, it is wrong for parents to baptize their children and then not raise them in their Faith, you are right, it is similar, but it just means that both situations are wrong, it doesn’t justify trying to baptize someone without having hope that they will be raised in the Faith. Erasing original sin is not the only change that occurs with baptism, we go from creatures of God to children of God and have the responsibilities of children of God. If erasing original sin was the only thing that occurred, without any other consequences, it would make sense to do so, and I get why you did it if that is what you thought… but that isn’t the reality.

 

[Rence]

Can. 867 §1. Parents are obliged to take care that infants are baptized in the first few weeks; as soon as possible after the birth or even before it, they are to go to the pastor to request the sacrament for their child and to be prepared properly for it.

§2. An infant in danger of death is to be baptized without delay.

**Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent;**

2/ there must be a founded hope that the infant will be brought up in the Catholic religion; if such hope is altogether lacking, the baptism is to be delayed according to the prescripts of particular law after the parents have been advised about the reason.

§2. An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents is baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents.

If the Baptism isn’t licit if done without at least one parents’ consent (in addition to being done dishonestly with NO ONE’S consent), I don’t get how that obligates the child or the parents to follow a religion they have no intention of following. If it’s not licit, then it’s not allowed, not legal, not correct, not sanctioned by law, not legitimate. So I don’t see how this affects the child at all. In fact, it probably won’t anyway since the parents have an adversion to Catholicism in the first place. One can’t interfere in another’s free will. Even God doesn’t interfere in a person’s free will. One can’t “make” someone Catholic who is not in an authoritative position to do so.

 

[oneofmany]

If the Baptism isn’t licit if done without at least one parents’ consent (in addition to being done dishonestly with NO ONE’S consent), I don’t get how that obligates the child or the parents to follow a religion they have no intention of following**. If it’s not licit,
then it’s not allowed, not legal, not correct, not sanctioned by law, not legitimate. So I don’t see how this affects the child at all.** In fact, it probably won’t anyway since the parents have an adversion to Catholicism in the first place. One can’t interfere in another’s free will. Even God doesn’t interfere in a person’s free will. One can’t “make” someone Catholic who is not in an authoritative position to do so.

I am thinking what you said makes the most sense. Baptizing probably doesn’t make much difference when the parents did not give permission. I certainly am not going to them and start bossing them around on how they need to raise their children now.

It seems so many on here are almost paranoid about what relatives do with their children. There are so many mixed marriages now I think people need to lighten up on the grandparents taking kids to other churches. If grandma isn’t a Catholic and she is babysitting over Sunday are you saying she can’t take the child to church with her? What are you going to do if she does it? Not let her babysit on the weekends? But many churches also have Wed. night prayer services and other services. Are you saying Protestant grandparents can’t babysit at all since they may introduce another religion to your child? That is setting up an impossible situation for the family.

I agree if the grandparent is saying another religion is better than the religion of the parents and taking the child to be officially baptized in their church than parents need to say something. If taking them to church without the parents knowing----kids like to talk so I don’t see how that can be done anyway—then you have something to worry about if they are trying to raise a child in another religion behind the parents back.

With mixed marriages now I guess we have more to worry about then we thought. HMMMMM

 

[SAVINGRACE]

I think you are all being very harsh on these grandparents who are doing the very best they can. I can empathize strongly. My underage daughter got pregnant with a man we didn’t even know. Six months later when she was 18, even though we asked her not to, she married him. Had only known him two months when she became pregnant. In any case they were married IN the Church, he promised to raise his kids Catholic she fully believed that was going to happen.
What I didn’t know at the time and I believe she did was both of HIS parents HAD been Catholic, had renounced the faith and gone off with some type of gospel or wayside or something type church we don’t even know what it is or anything. but they are rabidly anti Catholic and raised their son to be the same.
So here we were with the Catholic daughter we had spent every dime we had putting through private catholic school, a member of a third order of Carmelites married to a man who lied about his beliefs.
The reason we found out was his father spent the night one night at our house, the first time I had ever met the man, on his way traveling down to his son’s place at school. He got up in the morning, took one look at our family altar and literally got in a fist fight with the statues and the icons. He was ATTACKING them and calling them every name in the book, just filthy names. I was in fear for my life, grabbed my cast iron skillet and went to wake my husband up who calmed him down and got him out of the house. Our priest told us to never let him in again.
By that time by granddaughter was almost one, just our darling and we were her primary day care, as my daughter worked and son in law worked and so Grandpa and I babysat. The parents kept saying they wanted her baptised, but just hadn’t had a chance to do so. They had told the priest this in front of witnesses. So when the child became deathly ill with the flu, having seizures, and we had to call an ambulance, yes, I baptized her on the spot with holy water I had from the Carmelites. I just did it, it was automatic. And I told the parents and the priest.
So at that point, we felt a real obligation and began teaching the child her prayers and taking her to Mass. And when we did, all hell broke out with his family, they became furious, he became hostile and abusive to us, abusive to his wife, abusive to his daughter, and my daughter started becoming distant with us. Unbeknownst to us, she was pregnant again and afraid to leave him, he was threatening to take custody of the kids if she did, she was jobless, and so what she did was reject US and the Church. The last time I spoke with her was three days ago. She sent me a text message telling me if I spoke to her again she would blow my addled brains out with a .357.
I’m afraid she is lost to us altogether, my husband and I have constant novenas going on, we are not allowed to see our granddaughter who is now two and a half, and the parents spend all their time with his parents who explain the “real faith” to them.
I have been told I was correct to baptize the baby, the parents had expressed real determination to get it done, she was in danger of death, we had never been given any indication the father was anti catholic prior.
Until you have BEEN the Catholic grandparent, you really don’t know the pain, so perhaps a little compassion for the OP would be in order. Just saying. I see you guys condemning the OP know the rules but not the spirit of the faith.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Thank you, that means a lot to me. My hubby is thinking of offering to pay for the kids education if they go to Catholic school. They don’t like the school system in our city and if they don’t get them in a magnet school maybe they will consider other alternatives.

If my DIL can meet other Catholic mothers and become friends with them she may start to like our church. If she can get to know other people who care for her and if she isn’t treated harshly----like some Catholics have treated me on here----she may start to feel more inclined to look into our faith and what it has to offer. I and my hubby need to pray for them. I know our son is open to it. Thanks.

You’re welcome.

I agree with you, I think some here did treat you harshly and are not correcting from a place of love.

Keep praying for your children and grandchildren, St Monica has performed many miracles for the conversion of the heart.

.

 

[oneofmany]

You’re welcome.

I agree with you, I think some here did treat you harshly and are not correcting from a place of love.

Keep praying for your children and grandchildren, St Monica has performed many miracles for the conversion of the heart.

.

Thank you, I think Rence cleared it up for me.

**Can. 868 §1. For an infant to be baptized licitly:

1/ the parents or at least one of them or the person who legitimately takes their place must consent.**

I wasn’t taking the place of the parents and the children were not in danger of death.

.I recently bought the book----“How NOT to Share Your Faith.” The Seven Deadly Sins of Catholic Apologetics and Evangelization. I think it will be a good book to study. So many are quick to inform others of the rules and laws of the church without the charity of it.

 

[oneofmany]

marywarfield------ the text you got from your daughter may not have been from her. It may have been from her husband or in-laws. I would not trust texts at all.

If your daughter had a good, strong Catholic upbringing I think she will come to a point when she sees through what her husband and in-laws are doing. I pray she will come back to the faith and with her upbringing there is a good chance she will. I know it is the hardest thing you can do but give it some time. You are already praying. Add her to the prayer line on here if you have not done that yet so all can pray for her. Hugs.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

If the Baptism isn’t licit if done without at least one parents’ consent (in addition to being done dishonestly with NO ONE’S consent), I don’t get how that obligates the child or the parents to follow a religion they have no intention of following. If it’s not licit, then it’s not allowed, not legal, not correct, not sanctioned by law, not legitimate. So I don’t see how this affects the child at all. In fact, it probably won’t anyway since the parents have an adversion to Catholicism in the first place. One can’t interfere in another’s free will. Even God doesn’t interfere in a person’s free will. One can’t “make” someone Catholic who is not in an authoritative position to do so.

It’s my understanding that although this fiasco is not licit because the catechism was tossed out the window and the rules weren’t followed it is still valid, presumably because the baptism was still in the Trinitarian form. But a catholic needs to double check me on that.

As for what difference it makes, to catholics it makes a world of difference. That child will now be mortally sinning every Sunday they don’t go to mass after the age of reason, and as an adult they will be bound to the catholic marriage laws, which will cause a lot of problems should the child ever choose to marry outside of the church and then convert to Catholicism.

 

[maryjk]

You really don’t see that you did anything wrong, do you?

I am thinking what you said makes the most sense. Baptizing probably doesn’t make much difference when the parents did not give permission. I certainly am not going to them and start bossing them around on how they need to raise their children now.

If it doesn’t make a difference, WHY do it? You did it because you KNOW it makes a difference.

And no, if I were you, I wouldn’t start bossing them around. You have already taken an important decision out of their hands. Now is the time to go to them, hat in hand, and apologize.

It seems so many on here are almost paranoid about what relatives do with their children. There are so many mixed marriages now I think people need to lighten up on the grandparents taking kids to other churches. If grandma isn’t a Catholic and she is babysitting over Sunday are you saying she can’t take the child to church with her? What are you going to do if she does it? Not let her babysit on the weekends? But many churches also have Wed. night prayer services and other services. Are you saying Protestant grandparents can’t babysit at all since they may introduce another religion to your child? That is setting up an impossible situation for the family.

I’m saying that grandparents shouldn’t take children, that aren’t theirs, to activities that haven’t been approved by Mom and Dad. It really isn’t that hard. I will say again, if you have to HIDE your activities, chances are you are doing something wrong. You KNOW that what you did doesn’t even come close to taking a child to a prayer service.

I agree if the grandparent is saying another religion is better than the religion of the parents and taking the child to be officially baptized in their church than parents need to say something. If taking them to church without the parents knowing----kids like to talk so I don’t see how that can be done anyway—then you have something to worry about if they are trying to raise a child in another religion behind the parents back.

Which is exactly what you have done. You have baptized these children into the Catholic church, behind their parents back.
:banghead:

With mixed marriages now I guess we have more to worry about then we thought. HMMMMM

Not really. Just stop hiding stuff from the kid’s parents.

 

[Sheeniac]

As for what difference it makes, to catholics it makes a world of difference. That child will now be mortally sinning every Sunday they don’t go to mass after the age of reason, and as an adult they will be bound to the catholic marriage laws, which will cause a lot of problems should the child ever choose to marry outside of the church and then convert to Catholicism.

Except that one must be aware of the rules (so to speak) to have a sin be mortal. So the child can miss Mass for the rest of their lives, and their ignorance would ensure that the sin was venial.