What's a clear, charitable "come-back" for protestants?

[jmcrae]

Constantine did attend. He actually is the one who began to use the Crucifix as his standard bearer, because he won a battle. Constatine believed in the Catholic Church, he just wasn’t BAPTIZED yet.

I am not sure how he could have, since only Bishops are allowed to attend Councils? Certainly not an unbaptized person.

He used a particular kind of cross, which he saw in the sky, and interpreted as a portent of victory (and indeed, he won that particular battle); it was not a crucifix, though; it was a chi-rho:



His mother (St. Helena), you will be interested to know, was the discoverer of the True Cross - she brought it back to Rome. She was an archaeologist, you know. It is very likely that Constantine had a piece of the True Cross in his shield, as well, then.

 

[jmcrae]

This is the part that gives me anger management issues. We have a bunch of heretical protestants coming in 1500 years after the Catholics put together the initial cannon law and the bible to try to hijack scripture and put a mullet wrapper of fundamentalism and secular patriotism around it.

Gilbert K. Chesterton had a similar rant; he asked of the Protestants, who are these crazy people?

It would make sense if they said, “Catholicism is completely wrong, let’s destroy everything they have ever created.” Including the Bible, since it is a collection of the writings of our founders.

But no. The Protestants come along and, without any rhyme or reason whatsoever, they destroy everything except the Bible, which they then elevate to the place of God Himself, and call this flimsy paper object (instead of Jesus Himself) the “Word of God.”

As the kids today would say, “Whaddup wi’ dat?”

 

[qui_est_ce]

I am not sure how he could have, since only Bishops are allowed to attend Councils? Certainly not an unbaptized person.

newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm It is my understanding that many put off Baptism until their deathbeds at that time, so that they could die pure and go straight to Heaven. This is not biblical, of course, but it was a practice, that thankfully died out, and it is our common custom to baptize infants.

He used a particular kind of cross, which he saw in the sky, and interpreted as a portent of victory (and indeed, he won that particular battle); it was not a crucifix, though; it was a chi-rho:

http://www.seiyaku.com/images/cross/chi-rho.png

you are right. I guess i’m not infallible

His mother (St. Helena), you will be interested to know, was the discoverer of the True Cross - she brought it back to Rome. She was an archaeologist, you know. It is very likely that Constantine had a piece of the True Cross in his shield, as well, then.

Yes, I knew that. There are relics of the True Cross in many Catholic altars in the world. We have a splinter in our Church. Also bones of St. Joan of Arc, (that’s the name of my parish).

 

[qui_est_ce]

Wow, this thread has certainly “taken off” since I last logged in!

Isn’t CAF a great place to Evangelize and spread the Truth of God’s word?

In John 3:5, Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Because water baptism is the way that we are born again and receive new life — a fact that is supported elsewhere in Scripture (cf. Rom. 6:3–4; Col. 2:12–13; Titus 3:5) — I can wholeheartedly say in answer to your question, “Yes, I am born again!”

That said, we all fall short of perfection, even after being born again. Scripture nowhere states that our future sins are forgiven; instead, it teaches us to pray, “And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” My question to you is, how do you get from “having sinned” to “being purified so as to become worthy of entering the presence of God in Heaven”?

As with others who have posted here noted, frequent use of the Sacraments of God’s One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church come into play here. After all, Jesus didn’t breathe on His Apostles (John 20:21-23) and give them the power to forgive sins if He didn’t expect them (and their successors!) to use that power!

So well put, and charitable.

 

[neophyte]

I would just say something like “technically, we worship the same God, but without following our traditions, you cannot be saved or please Him in any way.”

You’d leave them with a really bad taste in their mouths it would likely be a long time before they felt inclined to seek out a Catholic seminarian or priest with whom to speak. And you’d be misrepresenting Catholic teaching.

But having read the rest of your posts, I imagine that that’s exactly your intent.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius:

Well, certainly all baptized trinitarian Christians do

worship the one True God.

The book “Nuts & Bolts - Catholic Apologetics Book” by by Tim Staples is one of the best I’ve read. Time Staples is a former Evengelical Protestant minister and is able to answer each of their points from the one source that they trust, the Bible. And, it does so with the greatest of Charity.

It is available here: catholicfreeshipping.com/…obytimstc.html

Hi,

I have read all of the posts and suggestions and as a born again christian who goes to a non-denom church the only effective response is the one CAT offered.

All of the other responses will be perceived as arrogant and condescending.

Thanks CAT

I beg your pardon! How is my post perceived as arrogant or condescending?

 

[fbl9]

i for one is guilty as charged. i’am apologizing to -all-. i ask would any of the early jewish peoples said anything to Moses about his speech impediment/

 

[ROBIN97]

I forget which great priest answered this question by replying:

Yes, but you worship Him your way, and we worship Him His way." or words to that effect.

In Christ’s peace and joy,

Robin

I believe it’s “You worship God in Your Way, and I’ll worship Him:thumbsup: in His way”

 

[EJTMJR]

Are you kidding me? I just read 14 pages and Fred still has not answered the question!!!

 

[teadough]

Are you kidding me? I just read 14 pages and Fred still has not answered the question!!!

Which one?

 

[Cat]

It’s been interesting reading through the debate that has arisen on this thread.

Back when I was Protestant, I was not virulently anti-Catholic, but I, like many Protestants (and Mr. Smith) believed lots of falsehoods about Catholicism.

But I never got into arguments with Catholics, mainly because the main context in which I knew Catholics was in pro-life work.

It is awfully hard to argue with someone who gives money, time, and talent to stop the evil of abortion and help women, men, and families who are affected by a crisis pregnancy.

I say when someone says something “anti-Catholic” to you, smile and say, “Thank you for telling me that.”

And then live your life with as much goodness and holiness as you can, through the grace of God.

You will find that many Protestants and others are watching you carefully, and your holy life, not your riveting apologetics, will convince them that your Church has the truth.

I’m not saying that we should avoid answering tough questions about our faith. St. Peter said that we should all be ready to give an answer for our faith.

But don’t feel bad if you don’t “win the argument” with your words. It is more important to keep allowing Jesus to make you like Him, a light in a dark world.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I say when someone says something “anti-Catholic” to you, smile and say, “Thank you for telling me that.”

And then live your life with as much goodness and holiness as you can, through the grace of God.

You will find that many Protestants and others are watching you carefully, and your holy life, not your riveting apologetics, will convince them that your Church has the truth.

Yes, I have seen that in this forum. There are many Protestants who come to a Catholic forum and challenge us.

I’m not saying that we should avoid answering tough questions about our faith. St. Peter said that we should all be ready to give an answer for our faith.

And these challenges raised by such Protestants as PC Master, Fred, Sola Fides (Brewmax) have helped me learn more about the Catholic faith and why it is the Biblical Church of Jesus.

But don’t feel bad if you don’t “win the argument” with your words. It is more important to keep allowing Jesus to make you like Him, a light in a dark world.

Yes, by the grace of God.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Then it was the god of this world, not the God of the Bible.

You’re giving the devil credit for something God has done? Kyrie Eleison!

Nothing except praying to the dead, worshipping Mary, Purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, sprinkling children, etc.

Once again, they’re not dead, they’re alive in Heaven with Christ. We don’t pray to them we ask them to pray for us, same as you asking the members of your as-yet-undisclosed faith community to pray for you, only better, because those in Heaven are able to perfectly pray God’s will for us.

We don’t worship Mary. We don’t worship Mary. We don’t worship Mary. It is FORBIDDEN by the Catholic Church to worship Mary. We worship God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Purgatory, indulgences, and papal infallibility (which is in matters of faith and morals ONLY, did you know that?), are not contradictory to Scripture.

I have never seen a child “sprinkled” in a Catholic Church. You’re confusing us with Presbyterians. My son is looking forward to Baptism in 2 months. He’ll get ALL wet!

Which came first: the church or the books commonly recognized as making up 2/3 of the Bible?

I’m talking about when the complete canon was closed, Mr Smith. Who did that? You do believe that the canon is closed, do you not? Nobody can come along now and add any books to the Bible, can they? How do you know this? Who decided, out of all the 300 some letters and gospels circulating during the first 3 centuries after Christ ascended, who narrowed the New Testament down to the 27 books you have in your Bible today?

I don’t see any evidence that you were born again to begin with.

Funny, with your opening comment giving the devil glory for the change in my life, I could conceivably say the same about you. But I’ve learned that when someone says they’re a Christian you should take their word for it, and let God be the One to judge them. He alone can see our hearts and knows who belongs to Him and who is a whitewashed tomb. I know that I have been redeemed by Jesus Christ, my Saviour. He died on the cross so that my sins may be forgiven. ANY good that I do in this life is because of the Spirit of God working in me, to will and to do of His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:13). I have been buried with Christ in Baptism, and raised to walk in newness of life. As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).Amen!

And isn’t it wonderful that they’re all united around the essentials!

They can’t even agree on what the essentials are - are you kidding me? By the way, I keep asking and I haven’t gotten an answer from any non-Catholic, so perhaps you can help me here: Where in the Bible* is* this list of “essential” doctrines, and which ones are non-essential? Can I just cut out the verses I don’t like if I find out from you that they’re non-essential? Thanks!

 

[FredSmith]

You know and I said it would be a waste of time.

I didn’t think you’d be able to.

To say we are going to hell is plenty.

You didn’t seem all that offended when your fellow Roman Catholics told me that I was going to Hell.

How can we respect you at all when you give answers like this? Is it that complicated of an answer? Perhaps you are embarrassed about it. Would you say you’re an independent? You speak of others… what denomination would those kind Christians say they belong to? Who’s building?.. your house?.. your mom’s basement?.. how would I know where to go to join your fellowship of believers?

SD

 

[scott1228]

To Cat: I just want to say that I thought your answer was excellent. I disagree with those that gave smart-alecky responses.

To those that are arguing with Fred, I don’t think any of your answers will convince him. It appears that he has come to this site just to aggravate Catholics.

Reading his replies, I came up with a list of things that are unbiblical:

1. The list of books that make up the Bible. This was not written at the time the Bible was written.
2. Nowhere do I find that the Bible is to be interpreted by oneself.
3. Nowhere do I find someone reading the Bible and making up their own church. Those that believed, joined the church.

Another thought hit me last night.

1. It clearly states that the Lord taught the disciples many other things that were not written down. To believe that the Bible has all that the Lord taught is unbiblical.

 

[SD_Catholic]

FredSmith

I didn’t think you’d be able to.

OK… i can’t believe I’m stooping to your level on this one. I hope that by giving you some examples (that you already know) you will in turn reveal which church you attend that we have supposedly mocked so badly.

You told Ignatius to say hi to Satan for you, told Manny he had the grammar of a 5 yr old, and told fb19 that reading his posts were like trying to solve a puzzle ( not a name but meant as an insult none the less). Have told individual Catholics and grouped Catholics as going to Hell so many times I stopped counting, and talk about mocking someone’s church and religion; you have mocked the Catholic religion in so many ways I would get flagged for taking up 2 pages to show them all.

And besides some of the names you claim to have been called were taken out of context (imagine that) to make it look like you were being picked on.

You didn’t seem all that offended when your fellow Roman Catholics told me that I was going to Hell.

I don’t recall this, and if it happened I’m sure it was after you told them the same thing (not making it right). What I do recall was you saying that someone said you weren’t saved or something like that. Well saying someone is going to hell and telling someone they are not saved are 2 different things, and I’m sure realize that or maybe you’ll debate that also since a Catholic just said it.

OK …I’ve answered your question so without hesitation… your church or name given to the denomination in which you worship God is called???

SD

 

[FredSmith]

You told Ignatius to say hi to Satan for you

And you were not offended by what he told me.

told Manny he had the grammar of a 5 yr old

He does. Have you read his posts? Nothing is capitalized, there is no punctuation, nothing is spelled correctly and, often, the words don’t even make sense.

and told fb19 that reading his posts were like trying to solve a puzzle

I notice that you neglected to mention the rest of my post to him.

If you had been honest enough to do so, then everyone would have seen that I did not insult him, but was simply explaining that his posts are very difficult to follow and asking him to try to be a little more clear.

Have told individual Catholics and grouped Catholics as going to Hell so many times I stopped counting

And again, you weren’t offended when they told me I’m going to Hell. Why the double standard?

and talk about mocking someone’s church and religion; you have mocked the Catholic religion in so many ways I would get flagged for taking up 2 pages to show them all.

Again, why the double standard?

And besides some of the names you claim to have been called were taken out of context (imagine that) to make it look like you were being picked on.

Name one.

I don’t recall this, and if it happened I’m sure it was after you told them the same thing (not making it right).

No, I didn’t say anything to warrant their attacks.

Well saying someone is going to hell and telling someone they are not saved are 2 different things, and I’m sure realize that or maybe you’ll debate that also since a Catholic just said it.

According to the Bible, they’re the same thing.

OK …I’ve answered your question so without hesitation… your church or name given to the denomination in which you worship God is called???

SD

It’s a Christian church. That’s all you need to know.

 

[EmergencyOps]

You might want to point out that the Catholic Church is no a denomination. It is simply the Church established by Jesus Christ.

Interesting thought, Pax. It makes me wonder, though - I know that my eyes are brown, but doesn’t that still make brown a color?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Are you kidding me? I just read 14 pages and Fred still has not answered the question!!!

Actually he sort of did if you read between the lines. He intimates that the best comeback might be something like:

‘Yea, and we Catholics shouldest more respect that thou Protestants have found God hiding in the literal print of The KJV Bible (version 2) and knowest that thee have read therein cause to believe we shalt suffer hellfire for reminding thee that we hadst assembled the scriptures 1500 years before tho Protestants hadst learned to read.’

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Interesting thought, Pax. It makes me wonder, though - I know that my eyes are brown, but doesn’t that still make brown a color?

In darkness there is no color and no private sight.

James