What's a clear, charitable "come-back" for protestants?

[Mannyfit75]

That isn’t what it means to be born again (at least not according to the Bible.)

The Bible says differently than you. Unless your Bible doesn’t have 1 Peter 3:21.

“Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

or Acts 22:16

And now why do you want? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

or John 3:5

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.”

We received water baptism. You also have to take into account the words of John Baptist. “I baptize you with water; but he who is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

This is saving baptism my friend. There is more. This is a prophecy of baptism.

Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.

Here is what Ezek states:

“I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleaness, and from all your idols I will cleanse. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.”

Titus 3:5

"he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in the virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.

In Baptism, we received the Holy Spirit. That is how we are saved. All sin are taken away, the original sin and our personal sin. Baptism my friend, according to the Bible does save.

Where in the Bible does it say that it doesn’t save? I tell you, you won’t be able to find it because its not there.

These don’t say that baptism takes away sin. If you believe they do, then how do you reconcile them to the Bible’s declaration that Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away sin?

From the Scriptural verses I showed it baptism does. You want us to insist and believe in the Scripture. Well, my friend. I just showed you from Scripture that baptism does saved and its required. When when the Gentiles were receiving the Holy Spirit, Peter did not delay on baptizing them and he did baptized them.

Baptism is essential for entry into a Christian life. It is not symbolic. You want a symbolic baptism, then you might as well be baptized by John, the Baptist because his baptism was of repentance and it only symbolizes. The Baptism we received is from Jesus Christ, whom he commanded the Apostles before his ascension.

In the Gospel of Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commanded his Apostles explicitly the following:

Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshipped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them. “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Jesus gave his Apostles authority, and this authority was handed down to the bishops of today, and popes who are the successors of the Apostle. This unbroken chain from our Lord is very clear, my friend. It is something we have been given by the Lord Jesus Christ himself.

As much as I like to admire your zeal for your faith, I find all the words which you preached are completely foreign and modern and completely alien to ancient Christianity. What you professed is based on a man-made tradition founded by the Protestant Reformer like Martin Luther and the others.

You are teaching new doctrine. I shall end with the quote from Letter to Hebrews 13:8:

“Jesus is the same yesterday, and today and forever. Do not be led away by diverse and strange teaching…”

 

[Mannyfit75]

Call it what you like, it still isn’t a work as works are defined by the Bible.

Tell me is the sinner prayer a kind of work? If it’s not work then what is it? It does call you to act upon it. Doesn’t it?

Because I’m right.

Why don’t you tell me how I’ve misinterpreted this verse.

So far, you have been wrong. I already shown you from Scripture that baptism does indeed save. You want us to believe in the Bible. Well, we do. We showed already that many of our beliefs are very Biblical.

 

[jmcrae]

That isn’t what it means to be born again (at least not according to the Bible.)

John 3:5: 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

These don’t say that baptism takes away sin. If you believe they do, then how do you reconcile them to the Bible’s declaration that Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away sin?

it is not an “either/or” proposition. When Jesus healed the blind man with a paste of mud and then told him to go and bathe in the pool of Siloam (Gospel, 4th Sunday of Lent, Year A; John 9:1-41) what healed the man? Jesus? The paste of mud? Or bathing in the pool of Siloam?

Just as Jesus used mud and water to heal the blind man back then, so also, Jesus uses the Sacraments to save our souls, today. And just as Jesus was the agency of healing in the case of the blind man when he had the paste of mud on his eyes and when he washed in the pool of Siloam, so also, Jesus is the agency of our salvation, when we in obedience to His command, make use of the Sacraments.

I Peter 3:18-22: 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

[FredSmith]

Tell me is the sinner prayer a kind of work? If it’s not work then what is it? It does call you to act upon it. Doesn’t it?

We don’t believe in the “sinners’ prayer” but, as I understand the concept, it is not a work, as defined by scripture, only a way to simply codify those things that are required for salvation (ie. repentence, faith in Christ’s atonement, profession that He is Lord, etc).

So far, you have been wrong. I already shown you from Scripture that baptism does indeed save. You want us to believe in the Bible. Well, we do. We showed already that many of our beliefs are very Biblical.

There isn’t one verse in scripture that says that we are saved by baptism.

You haven’t shown that baptism as a means of salvation is Biblical. You haven’t shown that praying to the dead is Biblical. You haven’t shown that Purgatory is Biblical. You haven’t shown that indulgences are Biblical. You haven’t shown that papal infallibility is Biblical.

 

[FredSmith]

John 3:5: 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That’s right. Unfortunately, this verse has nothing to do with baptism.

it is not an “either/or” proposition. When Jesus healed the blind man with a paste of mud and then told him to go and bathe in the pool of Siloam (Gospel, 4th Sunday of Lent, Year A; John 9:1-41) what healed the man? Jesus? The paste of mud? Or bathing in the pool of Siloam?

Jesus.

Just as Jesus used mud and water to heal the blind man back then, so also, Jesus uses the Sacraments to save our souls, today.

Your opinion is at odds with God’s word.

I Peter 3:18-22: 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Read it again. It isn’t saying that baptism saves. It is a metaphor, comparing Christ to the ark, and baptism to the faith of Noah and his family.

 

[Elizabeth2]

If you believe that you do anything to earn your salvation, then you are, in effect, denying Christ’s finished work and will go to Hell.
.

You misunderstand the Church’s teaching my friend, and also the scriptures. Jesus’ death on the cross has given salvation to everyone, but you have to repent of your sins and accept the gift, and you also have to reform your life. If you read the account of the day of judgement, I think it’s in Matthew 24. Jesus says (paraphrase) " I was hungry and you gave me to eat, I was sick and you cared for me, I was in prison and you visited me. Enter into my Kingdom, whatsoever you do to the least of these my little ones, you do it unto me". We can’t sit back and take it easy and think Jesus did everything for us so we don’t have to do anything.
And what do you make of Paul’s statement “It makes me happy to suffer for you, as I am suffering now, and in my own body to do what I can to make up all that has still to be undergone by Christ for the sake of his body, the Church.” Colossians 1:24

 

[FredSmith]

You misunderstand the Church’s teaching my friend, and also the scriptures.

No, I did not misunderstand the scriptures. Either you’re relying on Christ’s atonement alone, or you’re not.

Jesus’ death on the cross has given salvation to everyone, but you have to repent of your sins and accept the gift, and you also have to reform your life.

Not Biblical.

If you read the account of the day of judgement, I think it’s in Matthew 24. Jesus says (paraphrase) " I was hungry and you gave me to eat, I was sick and you cared for me, I was in prison and you visited me. Enter into my Kingdom, whatsoever you do to the least of these my little ones, you do it unto me". We can’t sit back and take it easy and think Jesus did everything for us so we don’t have to do anything.

Read the whole passage, please. Jesus alredy explained that He is talking to the unsaved.

Charitable works do not do one thing to merit salvation.

And what do you make of Paul’s statement “It makes me happy to suffer for you, as I am suffering now, and in my own body to do what I can to make up all that has still to be undergone by Christ for the sake of his body, the Church.” Colossians 1:24

First of all, that is a terrible translation you’re reading from.

Second, it has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Has Fred mentioned which denomination he belongs to? or just simply Christian? It might be easier to get ahold of his point of view if that was made clear. He could probably be having many of these same arguments with any other Protestant let alone Catholics. It does seem though (with all the posts in such a short time) that Fred is simply here to blast Catholics without being interested in a true discussion… hopefully this is not the case. Fred if you haven’t stated a denomination could you do so or atleast inform us on what church you attend… Thanks

SD

 

[FredSmith]

It does seem though (with all the posts in such a short time) that Fred is simply here to blast Catholics without being interested in a true discussion

Well, let’s see…my very first day here, I was called a “snowcovered dunghill” and told that I’m not saved and had both my church and my religion mocked.

So, the blasting goes both ways.

Fred if you haven’t stated a denomination could you do so or atleast inform us on what church you attend… Thanks

SD

Christian.

 

[teadough]

FredSmith;

“Christian”

That is a valid question. What denomination? There is a difference between denominations and you know it.

Come on…have some fun with this.No reason to get all angry

 

[Pixie_Dust]

“Christian”

That is a valid question. What denomination? There is a difference between denominations and you know it.

There is, in fact, a denomination called “Christian Church” which is an offshoot from the “Church of Christ” sect, but they believe that baptism is necessary for salvation, something I believe Fred disagrees with if I’m reading his posts right.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Well, let’s see…my very first day here, I was called a “snowcovered dunghill” and told that I’m not saved and had both my church and my religion mocked.

I just went back and looked at the post that mentioned the “snowcovered dunghill” and the poster was not calling you that. You misunderstood. The phrase actually comes from Martin Luther - that’s how he viewed what happens when God saves us. We’re still rotten underneath but we’re covered with Christ’s purity and righteousness. I can’t agree with Luther on this because the Bible says that we’re MADE a new creation, not just covered up, but actually changed and daily we become more and more like Him.

I have yet to see where anyone in this thread has told you that you’re not saved. I have seen responses to your declarations, but I haven’t noticed anyone mocking your beliefs, but rather answering your misconceptions about the Catholic Faith. Is this in another thread perhaps?

 

[Mannyfit75]

There isn’t one verse in scripture that says that we are saved by baptism.

Read the previous post. I even given you chapter and verses or are you too lazy to bother reading them. It is apparent, you don’t read any single post.

Let me put this in bold so you miss it.

Peter 3:21.

"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Acts 22:16

And now why do you want? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

John 3:5

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven."

In baptism, we have water poured over us.

You haven’t shown that baptism as a means of salvation is Biblical. You haven’t shown that praying to the dead is Biblical. You haven’t shown that Purgatory is Biblical. You haven’t shown that indulgences are Biblical. You haven’t shown that papal infallibility is Biblical.

Yes we have. You just ignore our responses. Read again.

Ezek. 36:25-27

“I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleaness, and from all your idols I will cleanse. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.”

In the Gospel of Matthew 28:16-20, Jesus commanded his Apostles explicitly the following:

Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshipped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them. "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Jesus commanded the Apostles to baptise. Why in the world would he commanded the Apostles to baptize. If it wasn’t necessary then Jesus would tell his Apostles to baptized.

Fred, I know you are a smart man, but you are making yourself look like a fool by ignoring these Scripture Passages.

Baptism does save. In baptism, we are sprinkled clean from our uncleanses. That is sin. With sin, we are dirty.

If Baptism doesn’t save why did the disciple say,

"And now why do you want? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name. Acts 22:16

Don’t be idiot and claim Baptism doesn’t save when it does. Peter says it does and according to you, it doesn’t. Peter has more credit that you.

 

[fbl9]

hi from what i have seen FredSmith is here to argue with us the topic he has yuo all on right now has in no way any relation to the topic of this thread

 

[teadough]

As far as denominations:

about 7 years ago is when I officially said I was a Christian.Up until that time I was…I guess a Agnostic. I would not have called myself that. I just didn’t care either way to be honest

Long story short. I started going to a Methodist church.I was baptized by sprinkle of water over my head. I had to say the Apostles Creed. My pastor said “don’t worry about the part where it says ‘Catholic Church’,it’s not what you think it means”.

I was still longing for something and a few years later thought I found it in a Baptist church. They said my first Baptizm was invalid because I did not get fully “dunked”. I got “dunked”,however, they did not believe in the Apostles Creed.

There are so many differences between denominations in the Protestant faith. Too many to count.Most denominations are autonomous between each individual church and can do what they want in the long run. That is why there are so many

 

[FredSmith]

hi from what i have seen FredSmith is here to argue with us the topic he has yuo all on right now has in no way any relation to the topic of this thread

So then, when you disagree with me, it’s because you’re defending the alleged “one true church that Christ founded”, but when I disagree with you, I’m just here to argue?

That’s quite a little double standard you’ve got there.

And, by the way, you never did answer my question about the nature of Christ.

 

[FredSmith]

Read the previous post. I even given you chapter and verses or are you too lazy to bother reading them. It is apparent, you don’t read any single post.

Actually, I responded to and debunked each one of them.

Don’t be idiot and claim Baptism doesn’t save when it does.

You know, given that you have the spelling and grammar of a five year old, I don’t know that I’d be calling anybody an idiot if I were you.

 

[jmcrae]

That’s right. Unfortunately, this verse has nothing to do with baptism.

What is this verse teaching us to do, then? What are we doing with the water, and how does the Spirit come to us through it, if this isn’t about Baptism? (I am very curious to know.)

Read it again. It isn’t saying that baptism saves.

Yes it is. 21The like figure whereunto **even baptism doth also now save us ** …

It is a metaphor, comparing Christ to the ark, and baptism to the faith of Noah and his family.

Expand on this.

How is baptism (which doesn’t save us, even though in the first part of the sentence, he says, “even baptism doth also now save us”) a “comparison” to the faith of Noah and his family? (Wasn’t it their faith that God’s word is true that motivated them to build the ark and get into it, even while the ground was still dry?)

While somehow at the same time not being about how baptism is the entry into the Ark of Salvation, which is the Body of Christ?

 

[FredSmith]

Yes it is. 21The like figure whereunto **even baptism doth also now save us ** …

And, as usual, the Roman Catholic is forced to take parts of a verse of scripture out of context.

 

[SPH1]

We don’t believe in the “sinners’ prayer” but, as I understand the concept, it is not a work, as defined by scripture, only a way to simply codify those things that are required for salvation (ie. repentence, faith in Christ’s atonement, profession that He is Lord, etc).

Many Protestant groups have replaced Baptism with the un-scriptural “Sinner’s Prayer” as a means of “making their decision for Christ.” But Baptism is the real means of accepting Christ.

There isn’t one verse in scripture that says that we are saved by baptism.

You were already refered to Peter 3:21.

What you and your group fail to grasp is that Christ/God is directly involved with the Sacrament. Since Christ is the ultimate administrator, yes, it is a means of salvation.

In your scheme, God is - at best - a mere observer. And thus, your “baptism” is a REAL “work”, with no grace whatsoever from God.