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MaryT777
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Raising hand :: I have…My friend is a LCMS Pastor! Count me in as being around some conservative LutheransClearly you haven’t been around conservative Lutherans.
Mary.
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Attejohannes
Guest
I disagree wtih the often cited number of tens of thousands of Protestant denominations. I would think that we have practically three divisions: Lutherans-Anglicans, Calvinists or Reformed, and Evangelicals. The ecclesiology of Evangelicals is rather different from the main line protestants, and I see them as a continuation of the Independentist tradition of the radical British Puritans of the 17th century. They resented any centrally governed church body and held the idea of independent local churches or congregations. The doctrine of these hundreds of “churches” was, however, basicallly similar. My impression (but I may be wrong, I have not been very often in the USA) is that the American evangelical churches or denominations do not generally exclude members of other evangelical congregations from participating their services or communion (but correct me immediately, if this is not the case).
One thing that I have learned in this forum that the Catholics have also their little zoo of “denominations” (Sedevacantists, SSPX, old catholics etc), and I assume that more might pop up along the traditional-liberal axis. The liberal - traditional division is also the great divide withing the Protestant denominations, unfortunately.
As a representative of the traditional wing of main line protestantism, I would like to finish with an anecdote of a Lutheran being asked by a Catholic: “Where was your “church” before the 16th century?” “Did you wash your face this morning?”, was the reply. “Yes, of course, what has this to do with the question?” retorted the Catholic. “Where was your face before you washed it?” asked the Lutheran.
One thing that I have learned in this forum that the Catholics have also their little zoo of “denominations” (Sedevacantists, SSPX, old catholics etc), and I assume that more might pop up along the traditional-liberal axis. The liberal - traditional division is also the great divide withing the Protestant denominations, unfortunately.
As a representative of the traditional wing of main line protestantism, I would like to finish with an anecdote of a Lutheran being asked by a Catholic: “Where was your “church” before the 16th century?” “Did you wash your face this morning?”, was the reply. “Yes, of course, what has this to do with the question?” retorted the Catholic. “Where was your face before you washed it?” asked the Lutheran.
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Jordan_Rizk
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One word: Heretics
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Attejohannes
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Thanks. I like that, because honesty is always wellcome. I hold the faith that was anathemiized in Trent. To be conistent a Catholic should consider me a heretic and call m one, instead of using the condescending term ”separated brother".
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GKC
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You are very kind.Making mental note to but GKC a motley crew Tshirt for a gift…LOL…
sorry off topic but I love that
Mary.
GKC
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jrtrent
Guest
This is the non-Catholics forum, whose stated purpose is to “explore the history and beliefs of non-Catholic and non-Christian faiths, dialogue with their adherents.”
It seems to me that the best way to address this issue in starting a thread would be to specify which faith or faiths you want more information about. Depending on the topic, a poster may be curious about the positions of any and all non-Catholic faiths, or might want to narrow the focus to a single denomination. Back in post 7, Conor7 said, “address your intended audience specifically.” That’s good advice, but bear in mind that often, especially among Protestants, a person who isn’t a Lutheran now (or Baptist, Presbyterian, etc.) may well have been one before, or perhaps just studied it extensively, and might have more knowledge or expertise on that faith’s beliefs than some who are currently in that faith. Addressing a question only to Lutherans, or to WELS Lutherans, might drastically cut down the sources of information available among forum members on whatever question a person had.
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Kal2012
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I tend to take an “either - or” view.
Either you are a Catholic or you aren’t.
The Protestant world is huge and has lots of different branches. You can be a high-church protestant or a low church protestant and still agree that the Pope isn’t the leader of your church, that scripture only will save you and that infant baptism is bunk. Just because your protestant church has more in common w/Catholics than the “low-church” folks doesn’t make you Catholic.
Coming into the RCC from a Low-church background, I still have a hard time with mass because it is fundamentally different than what is offered as worship in low-church settings.
Individual Catholics may disagree with what is taught on the social stuff, but Church leadership is clear on what the proper position to take on any issue is. That opinion doesn’t change whether you go to the “Liberal” or “Conservative” parish.
My standard is whether you can take communion in the RCC or you can’t. If you can’t, then either you are an unbeliever (can be in various ways) or a protestant Christian. Either way, you aren’t in alignment with the RCC and its beliefs.
I was deeply offended that, as a protestant Christian, I couldn’t take communion in an RCC. However, after learning and growing in the Catholic faith and becoming a Catholic, I understand why there’s that standard.
I am more offended these days that my RCIA director is okay with non-Catholics taking communion because my husband made it quite clear when we were dating that non-Catholics weren’t supposed to participate because we (as protestants) don’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I’ve since learned that there are a few exceptions, but still, for the most part, either you are in-line with teachings of Catholicism or you aren’t.
There is room to question w/in both traditions. Still, I don’t consider my Catholic doubting friends, protestants just because they have doubts. There has to be clear rejection of what the RCC teaches on other things besides the social stuff. It’s a given that most people in America have problems with the church’s stance on the social stuff.
Either you are a Catholic or you aren’t.
The Protestant world is huge and has lots of different branches. You can be a high-church protestant or a low church protestant and still agree that the Pope isn’t the leader of your church, that scripture only will save you and that infant baptism is bunk. Just because your protestant church has more in common w/Catholics than the “low-church” folks doesn’t make you Catholic.
Coming into the RCC from a Low-church background, I still have a hard time with mass because it is fundamentally different than what is offered as worship in low-church settings.
Individual Catholics may disagree with what is taught on the social stuff, but Church leadership is clear on what the proper position to take on any issue is. That opinion doesn’t change whether you go to the “Liberal” or “Conservative” parish.
My standard is whether you can take communion in the RCC or you can’t. If you can’t, then either you are an unbeliever (can be in various ways) or a protestant Christian. Either way, you aren’t in alignment with the RCC and its beliefs.
I was deeply offended that, as a protestant Christian, I couldn’t take communion in an RCC. However, after learning and growing in the Catholic faith and becoming a Catholic, I understand why there’s that standard.
I am more offended these days that my RCIA director is okay with non-Catholics taking communion because my husband made it quite clear when we were dating that non-Catholics weren’t supposed to participate because we (as protestants) don’t believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I’ve since learned that there are a few exceptions, but still, for the most part, either you are in-line with teachings of Catholicism or you aren’t.
There is room to question w/in both traditions. Still, I don’t consider my Catholic doubting friends, protestants just because they have doubts. There has to be clear rejection of what the RCC teaches on other things besides the social stuff. It’s a given that most people in America have problems with the church’s stance on the social stuff.
It doesn’t make us Catholic, in communion with the Bishop of Rome. And infant Baptism isn’t bunk, and scripture doesn’t save you. And the pope is a leader in the Church, as he is the Bishop of Rome, and the western patriarch.
My understanding is that belief in the real presence is not the determining factor as to whether or not one may receive in a Catholic church. Lutherans believe in the real presence, so do many Anglicans.
Same problems within Lutheranism.
Jon
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cheezey
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some rogue Protestants believe as the Catholics do regarding, well, actually many issues, including the Eucharist. (Not referring to the organized beliefs of Lutheran, Anglicans, etc.) Some rogues want to proclaim the Catholic faith because of this; not just for wanting to learn and follow, but also, for having believed and thus, wanting to follow…
please pray for the rogues…
please pray for the rogues…
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Brandall
Guest
I was a cradle Baptist and enjoyed that very much. There was nothing I was protesting as I was following the religion of my parents. That is pretty much the same for most following the religion of their parents. They aren’t protesting anything and I hate the term protestant. It is long past being a definitive term since the reformation happened centuries before any of us was born.
There are Catholics that use the term “the church” when talking about the body of Christ as being all encompassing of all denominations. Then they will turn around and use the term “the church” to mean the Catholic Church. That can be very confusing and it’s probably an intentional use.
Again, back to protestant. I never was protesting until I started to protest the religion of my parents and seeking something better. It wasn’t until I started to investigate the Catholic Church that I became a protestant. My plans to enter RCIA in August will make my protest complete.
While this isn’t what you are looking to find, these ideas have been rolling around my mind for a while. It just highlights how foolish to still use terms such as protestant are. Likewise, it is foolish to use the term Baptist too since they don’t even think baptism a sacrament or necessary.
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Della
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There are Protestants that believe in the Real Presence, but the Catholic Church does not recognize their communions as the true body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ, therefore, they should not receive the Eucharist without the premission of the Catholic bishop.
Conversely, Catholics may not receive Protestant communion no matter what that particular ecclesial body believes about it because, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, it is not the Eucharist. Receiving in a Protestant church means, to a Catholic, being in union with that church’s beliefs. Since we do not hold to their beliefs, we cause scandal and sin if we receive in their churches.
Conversely, Catholics may not receive Protestant communion no matter what that particular ecclesial body believes about it because, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, it is not the Eucharist. Receiving in a Protestant church means, to a Catholic, being in union with that church’s beliefs. Since we do not hold to their beliefs, we cause scandal and sin if we receive in their churches.
This is what I understand the Catholic teaching to be. Further, it would be inappropriate for a non-Catholic to receive in a Catholic church, if for no other reason than they ask us not to. Just good manners. Contrary to the Catholic view of our sacrament, Lutherans believe that the Catholic Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, but there is much more to “communion” than agreement on the real presence.
Jon
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cheezey
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well, for me, one parent, all the while knowing just a bit of the other…I don’t think intentional, but, yes, it can be confusing…
I seek Someone and something more; to be Protestant is not bad; perhaps just not complete.
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SecretGarden
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Pure and simple you can’t lump all of the Protestant teachings together in one lump definition because there are too many denominations underneath that classification. I hate it when we divide ourselves from the Protestant church. We share more commonalities with them than anyone realized. I’m from that church and I’ve seen it and I love the denominations I am from.
In general Protestants are another branch of Christianity. I like to compare Christianity as being the country such as the United States. The branches are like denominations which are divided up such as Orthodox, Protestants, Catholic, Copic etc, Each denomination is like a state which has many towns villages, cities. Every state has it’s own unique history and people who live inside it and yet each city, village, town belongs to the state and the country. One can’t singularize a state or city as being a representative of the country of origin. It isn’t fair on anyone. Christianity is so rich and it’s important for all Catholics and other denominations to stop making our denominations sound better than the other.
In general Protestants are another branch of Christianity. I like to compare Christianity as being the country such as the United States. The branches are like denominations which are divided up such as Orthodox, Protestants, Catholic, Copic etc, Each denomination is like a state which has many towns villages, cities. Every state has it’s own unique history and people who live inside it and yet each city, village, town belongs to the state and the country. One can’t singularize a state or city as being a representative of the country of origin. It isn’t fair on anyone. Christianity is so rich and it’s important for all Catholics and other denominations to stop making our denominations sound better than the other.
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Brandall
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I just finished an inquiry in the local parish. On one of those nights, we were discussing the body of Christ and the other gentleman and I were asking how other denominations fit into that. There is a Methodist church about a mile away and we were using it as an example. The instructor, who I have great affection, explained how the good people at X(Methodist Church) were part of the church and part of the body of Christ but they weren’t in full communion with “The Church”.
Of course, what he meant was: the good people at X(Methodist Church) were part of the church and part of the body of Christ but they weren’t in full communion with the Catholic Church. This instructor was a revert that had spent 8+ years at an evangelical church until he reverted back to Catholicism. He should have known that his statement could cause confusion. It wasn’t until the other gentleman, that was in inquiry with me, and I discussed it alone, that we became clear on his meaning of all this.
Some Catholics can be very territorial. They don’t consider themselves as a denomination but as “The Church”. It’s can be confusing and off putting.
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Della
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Communion is, of course, the union between God and his people. The Eucharist is a part of that, but a very substantial part. It is baptism that unites us, though. Sadly, no matter what we believe about each other’s sacraments, we are not in union there. I wish it were otherwise for the sake of all our separated brethren and the world.
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MaryT777
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Della that was very well stated; nice post.
Mary.
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MaryT777
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I’m glad you posted this for I tend to use the word church as in universal/catholic
(small c) and Church as in Catholic the denomination or Catholic (capital C) interchangeably. I will be more cognizant of that in the future. When you’re with other Catholics they discern the meaning by the context and I can see where that is unclear for non Catholics. Thanks. I try to be clear but I’m a cradle Catholic so the lingo is what I grew up with
Mary.
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FabiusMaximus
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I grew up in an Evangelical Pentecostal home. When my parents converted, the term ‘Protestant’ was and is still deemed to be gravely offensive. I’m not offended, but it is inaccurate.
Evangelicalism is an entirely separate movement from the traditional Protestant movements of the 16th century. But for Roman Catholics, anything that isn’t Catholic is generally lumped together. Sometimes out of ignorance, other times, out of arrogance.
A Catholic would have much more in common with a Lutheran than they would with someone from the kinds of churches I come from. And yet, it is the Lutheran and the Evangelical that are seen to be “similar” or “the same.” Take any major issue - Baptism, Communion, Confession - these are all issues in which Lutherans are far closer to Rome than a Pentecostal or a Baptist.
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