Whats it like to be born again?

[Lion_Heart]

LionHeart.

Assuming you have a Green paperback CCC, go to page 705. Look down to the CCC citations of John 3:3 and 3:5.

Read all of the citations and notice the all of the discussion about baptism being associated with being “born again” (when reading the CCC paragraphs you will have to look at and sometimes read the footnotes too).

This will help in giving you the mind of the Church concerning being “born again”.

Greetings in Christ Cathoholic,

I have the 1994 edition of CCC. I have read everything in it about baptism.

There is only one crucial matter what is not yet settled.
That is:- When is the point, when catechumens cross over from the spiritual position of the fall to the spiritual position of the Body of Christ.

THE FALLEN SPIRITUAL POSITION:-

a. They are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. They are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. They are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. They are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. They “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: they see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND their UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by means of the Spirit.” – 1 Cor.2:14 (Jerusalem Bible) Emphasize mine.

When is the exact point when catechumens cross the line?
Acts 10:44-48; Their crossing the line PRECEDED water baptism.
Is this the norm or exception?

The line between the …………………………………………………
two spiritual positions.

What about the catechumens in our days?
Will they cross the line when they become catechumens, or even THEIR CROSSING OF THE LINE is the CAUSE that they are catechumens?

Or they crossed the line after at least one year “spiritual study,” in the state of spiritual death in their sins, under God’s condemnation??? – 1 Cor.2:14!!!

We know they cross the line AT THAT POINT when God performs His part of their Baptism.

WHEN IS THAT EXACT TIME???

OUR NEW SPIRITUAL POSITION AS BORN AGAIN IN HEAVEN IN THE BODY OF CHRIST

We are perfect and complete in the Body of Christ.

100% RE-CREATED (Born Again. Resurrected from spiritual death.)
100% JUSTIFIED.
100% SANCTIFIED.

Equipped to do spiritual studies, to cooperate with the grace of God and to do good works/supernatural merit.

I believe Cathoholic this is a crucial and very important matter that we (we are the Church) need to settle, because this is the heart of the Gospel.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[jmcrae]

Greetings in Christ Cathoholic,

I have the 1994 edition of CCC. I have read everything in it about baptism.

There is only one crucial matter what is not yet settled.
That is:- When is the point, when catechumens cross over from the spiritual position of the fall to the spiritual position of the Body of Christ.

THE FALLEN SPIRITUAL POSITION:-

a. They are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. They are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. They are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. They are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. They “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: they see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND their UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by means of the Spirit.” – 1 Cor.2:14 (Jerusalem Bible) Emphasize mine.

When is the exact point when catechumens cross the line?
Acts 10:44-48; Their crossing the line PRECEDED water baptism.
Is this the norm or exception?

The line between the …………………………………………………
two spiritual positions.

What about the catechumens in our days?
Will they cross the line when they become catechumens, or even THEIR CROSSING OF THE LINE is the CAUSE that they are catechumens?

Or they crossed the line after at least one year “spiritual study,” in the state of spiritual death in their sins, under God’s condemnation??? – 1 Cor.2:14!!!

We know they cross the line AT THAT POINT when God performs His part of their Baptism.

WHEN IS THAT EXACT TIME???

OUR NEW SPIRITUAL POSITION AS BORN AGAIN IN HEAVEN IN THE BODY OF CHRIST

We are perfect and complete in the Body of Christ.

100% RE-CREATED (Born Again. Resurrected from spiritual death.)
100% JUSTIFIED.
100% SANCTIFIED.

Equipped to do spiritual studies, to cooperate with the grace of God and to do good works/supernatural merit.

I believe Cathoholic this is a crucial and very important matter that we (we are the Church) need to settle, because this is the heart of the Gospel.

With love in Christ,
LH

The Catechumens are operating under prevenient grace, which provides them with what they need to become prepared for Baptism - including “baptism of desire” which will suffice to save them if they die before they are actually baptized.

However, the grace they are receiving is flowing backwards in time from the moment of their Baptism; it is not independent of their Baptism, but flows out from it.

 

[Cathoholic]

Lion Heart. You asked:

When is the exact point when catechumens cross the line?
Acts 10:44-48; Their crossing the line PRECEDED water baptism.
Is this the norm or exception?

Good question.

This is the “exception” not the norm.

As St. Gregory of Nazienzen in the late 300’s A.D. said about this:

St. Gregory of Nazienzen (The Holy Spirit) comes upon Cornelius and his companions before Baptism, to others after Baptism.

(I don’t want to complicate things but in the Eastern Church they give Baptism and the completion of Baptism [Sacrament of Confirmation] one right after the other and that is almost certainly why St. Gregory states, “after” instead of “during” Baptism here.)

Why God made an exception here is also unpacked by the Church (see here and here for explanation from Pope St. Gregory and St. Augustine. It was necessary for the Church more so than for Cornelius et. al.).

But even with this exception, Cornelius etc. needed to get Baptized ASAP . . . . and they were Baptized ASAP (as you can see in the passages).

You asked about when (in extraordinary circumstances) you receive such graces:

The line between the ………………………………………………… …
two spiritual positions.

You get the grace when you need it.

As jmcrae stated:

The Catechumens are operating under prevenient grace, which provides them with what they need to become prepared for Baptism - including “baptism of desire” which will suffice to save them if they die before they are actually baptized.

However, the grace they are receiving is flowing backwards in time from the moment of their Baptism; it is not independent of their Baptism, but flows out from it.

Without this sacramental bond, you still need to carry out the sacramental aspect (unless you die beforehand).

When extra-ordinary means are undertaken you are still expected to carry out the sacramental aspect (just as Cornelius and Co.).

The same type of thing occurs with “General Absolution” (properly given). If the ship is sinking in icy waters and the Priest gives all hundred Catholics aboard “General Absolution” and another ship comes up and rescues them before they die, the people still need to go to Confession ASAP to complete the graces. Yet if they died with this action they would get the graces needed in an extraordinary sense (assuming they were sincere).

Back to the concept of Baptism.

God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism (Ordinary means).

But he himself is not bound by his sacraments (Extraordinary means) but we never presume extraordinary means.

• Baptism = “Born Again” = “Born of water and the Spirit”

CCC 1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.
The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.”
God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Greetings in Christ Cathoholic,

SOME DIFFERENT GRACES OF GOD IN CATHOLIC TEACHING:-

PREVENIENT GRACE:-

a. It is IRRESISTIBLE grace.

b. No one can reject this type of grace, since it precedes the choice of the free will; it acts upon the free will, but by the operation of God ALONE, NOT by cooperation.

c. Its purpose is to ENABLE the intellect and will to choose with true freedom between cooperating with actual grace or no cooperation.

ACTUAL GRACE:-

a. Actual grace is NOT irresistible.

b. Actual grace is the grace from God TO DO GOOD.

c. By cooperating with actual grace enable the intellect to do good works/supernatural merit. – This merit CAN NOT contributed to our Justification/Salvation!!!

SANCTIFYING GRACE:-
a. Sanctifying grace is NOT irresistible.

b. Sanctifying grace is the grace from God TO BE GOOD.

c. By cooperating with sanctifying grace this enables the intellect to improve himself to be more just and holy.
By cooperation with sanctifying grace the intellect also gains supernatural merit. – This merit CAN NOT contributed to our Justification/Salvation!!!

FROM BEING DEAD (spiritually) THE WAY GOD MAKES US BORN AGAIN IN CHRIST:-

THIS BELOW IS THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE FALL:-

a. They are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. They are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. They are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. They are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. They “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: they see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND their UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by means of the Spirit.” – 1 Cor.2:14 (Jerusalem Bible) Emphasize mine.

In the above spiritual position THEY ARE DEAD SPIRITUALLY, they accept NOTHING from the Spirit of God.

AS LONG AS God doesn’t make them spiritually alive IN CHRIST (in the body of Christ) they stay SPIRITUALLY DEAD (1 Cor.15:22b) AND THEY CAN DO NOTHING (John 15:5) and they ACCEPT NOTHING from the Spirit of God, they see it ALL IS NONSENSE.

In the above spiritual position, if anyone teaches them spiritual things they could not respond, they are DEAD spiritually.
It is like teaching mathematics to the physically dead, they will not respond as they are dead physically.

THIS BELOW IS THE WAY GOD MAKES US SPIRITUALLY ALIVE. God gives PREVENIENT GRACE.

In the Sacrament of Baptism there is God’s part to do, and our part to do.

GOD’S PART TO DO IN OUR SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM:-

1. “ … He (Christ) loves us and has washed away our sins with His own blood,” – 1 Cor.6:11; Rev.1:5. (Jerusalem Bible)
2. God has Baptized us into the Body of Christ. – 1 Cor.12:12-13, 20, 27.
3. In the Body of Christ, God JUSTIFIED us, RE-CREATED us (Born Again), and SANCTIFIED. – Rom.3:24; 1 Cor.15:22b; 1 Cor.6:11; Rev.1:5.
4. God has given us His gift of formed faith, (baptism of desire included). – Doctrine of the Church.
5. God has prepared our will to freely accept His gift of faith. – Canon 4 of the Council of Orange (529 AD); John 6:44-45.

AT THAT POINT when God has given us His gift of formed faith and ACCOMPANIED BY HIS PREVENIENT GRACE, AT THAT POINT God has performed His part of our Baptism.

THE OUTCOME:-

a. God has JUSTIFIED us:- At our justification God has DECLARED us just and declared us to be sons of God. – Rom.3:24.

b. God has RE-CREATED us:- At our re-creation God has MADE us sons of God. – Ez.36:26-27; Eph.2:1; Col.2:10-13.
From SPIRITUAL DEATH God has made us SPIRITUALLY ALIVE. – Eph.2:1; Col.2:13.

c. God has SANCTIFIED us:- At our sanctification God has MADE us holy. – 1 Cor.6:11; Rev.1:5.

Justification, re-creation and sanctification is one composite with three parts in it.
If we understand the function of each part of them, we can have a deeper understanding.

In the Sacrament of Baptism God’s part MADE us Born Again.
From SPIRITUAL DEATH God has made us SPIRITUALLY ALIVE.

God’s part in our Baptism is the process of the way God makes us Born Again.
Until God performs His part in our baptism, we are on the spiritual position of the fall, and we CAN NOT receive anything from the Spirit of God, in fact it is “foolishness to us.” – 1 Cor.2:14!!!

The way God makes us Born Again is an INSTANT event and causes INSTANT Justification/salvation, and this is God’s gift of everlasting life for His elects.

Continued on the next post

 

[Lion_Heart]

Continuation

OUR NEW SPIRITUAL POSITION AS BORN AGAIN IN THE BODY OF CHRIST

We are perfect and complete in the Body of Christ.

100% RE-CREATED (Born Again/New Creation).
100% JUSTIFIED.
100% SANCTIFIED.

In the Body of Christ, we are 100% saved, 100% justified and 100% sanctified. – We cannot add anything to it. It is God’s PERFECT gift.

Until this point everything is done by (irresistible) PREVENIENT GRACE.

The purpose of PREVENIENT GRACE is to ENABLE the intellect and the will to choose with true freedom between cooperating with actual grace or no cooperation.

Cathoholic what do you think about the following formula?

God’s part to do in our Baptism = “Born Again” = Our part to do in our water baptism.
/…. Prevenient Grace …… (Instant event)…… /… /…… Actual Grace …/

Before a person Born Again he is on the spiritual position of the fall.

AT THAT POINT when God Baptizes someone into the Body of Christ, THAT IS THE POINT when that person is Born Again (in the body of Christ) and THAT IS THE POINT he crosses the line from the spiritual position of the fall to the spiritual position of the Body of Christ.

This is also the point when the Prevenient Grace stops operating and starts the operation of the Actual Grace.

One of the MOST CRUCIAL theological facts: Until someone is not IN THE BODY OF CHRIST he is on the SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE FALL.

They “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: they see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND their UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by means of the Spirit.” – 1 Cor.2:14!!! (Jerusalem Bible) Emphasize mine.

John 15:5 clearly states:- Unless we are IN CHRIST we can do NOTHING.
1 Cor.15:22 also states:- IN CHRIST all shall be made alive (Born Again). – 2 Cor.5:17; If anyone is IN CHRIST he is a NEW CREATION.

There is NO between position, between the spiritual position of the fall and the spiritual position IN CHRIST (Body of Christ).
Every member of the human race is on one of the two spiritual position. – There is NO exception.

The catechumens are NOT in a between position because there is NO between position between SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins UNDER GOD’S CONDEMNATION and BORN AGAIN. – Eph.2:1; Col.2:13.
ONE or the OTHER.

When God gives someone His gift of formed faith He Baptizes that person SIMULTANEOUSLY to the Body of Christ. – 1 Cor.1:30; 1 Cor.12:12-13, 20, 27.

It would be useless that God gives someone His gift of faith and at the same time leaves that person on the spiritual position of the fall. – 1 Cor.2:14!!!

In the first century to be Born Again was an INSTANT EVENT and they had their water Baptism as well ASAP that is very clear from Acts 2:41-47.

This is the way God makes someone Born Again in the Body of Christ. – 1 Cor.1:30; 1 Cor.15:22.
Furthermore, It is very CLEAR in John 15:5, “If someone is not IN CHRIST he can do NOTHING.”

So, why should we pretend that the catechumens are NOT in Christ? If they are not in Christ, they can do NOTHING, BECAUSE THEY ARE ON THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE FALL.

And if they are in Christ, there is NO OTHER WAY they are Born Again, the two CAN NOT be separated from each other.
As they are Born Again, we should baptize them ASAP in the way as it is done in Acts 2:41-47.

According to the above facts, in our days we should do the same and we shouldn’t teach and practice that God today makes people Born Again in a different way then He made people Born Again in the first century.

In Acts 2:41-47 the Christians baptized the new Christians ASAP.
In my opinion: Today we should do the same.

Cathoholic, Jmcrae and CAF members, in your opinion: – On which spiritual positions are the catechumens from the two, on the spiritual position of the fall or they are Born Again in Christ? – There is NO OTHER alternative.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[Cathoholic]

Lion Heart

You ask a question. Then I counted 20 different bullet points on ONE post (and then I quit counting as you continued not only on one but two posts).

We cannot have a real discussion with these shenanigans Lion Heart.

You are for all practical purposes copying and pasting what you have said elsewhere. This is not the way to have “discussion” Lion Heart.

I don’t have an issue with a long post, but just address the issue that we are talking about.

Also instead of you giving a Bible verse and telling everybody in frequent capital letters what everything means, try taking one idea and give a catechetical and a Biblical verse to back it up that’s all. If you need to highlight a portion of the verse and CCC quote do so.

I welcome the discussion, but if I see you copying and pasting essentially what you have pasted here before (and on other threads you have posted to that I have seen), it is almost impossible to have “dialogue”.

For example this routine:

100% RE-CREATED (Born Again/New Creation).
100% JUSTIFIED.
100% SANCTIFIED.

Is a partial truth.

I have already pointed to you from the documents of Trent on Justification on how we need to increase our sanctification which is part of this process of justification.

Justification is a lifelong process. Not just a moment Lion Heart.

It seems to me you have imbibed a lot of Anabaptist theology along the way somewhere.

Anabaptists frequently don’t believe that Christ works in and through the sinner (that’s what the whole “covering” of “filthy rags” instead of a “transformation” issue is all about). If you don’t believe Christ continues to work in and through you with your cooperation, then you will not be able to see that Christ increases our sanctification and justification with His grace and our cooperation either.

Being “born again” is being baptized (being born of “water and the Spirit”).

This is the beginning of the Christian life.

You said:

AT THAT POINT when God Baptizes someone into the Body of Christ, THAT IS THE POINT when that person is Born Again (in the body of Christ) and THAT IS THE POINT he crosses the line from the spiritual position of the fall to the spiritual position of the Body of Christ.

Why did you ask me about this, then I answered it for you with a quote from St. Gregory of Nazienzen from the 300’s A.D. who is a universally respected “Doctor of the Church” no less, and then you ignore the answer?

Do you understand what being “baptized” is Lion Heart?

You seem to think Baptism is this mystical spiritual event that is merely followed with ritual.

This is bogus theology (if it is what you are trying to say).

You also said:

The catechumens are NOT in a between position because there is NO between position between SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins UNDER GOD’S CONDEMNATION and BORN AGAIN. – Eph.2:1; Col.2:13.

Nobody said that a “catechumen” is “between” anything!

You go back and re-read the posts. Until you get your objection correct, trying to rebut you will be useless as we will be talking about different things (just like I suspect we are talking about “different things” when you allude to being “born again” in language different from Jesus and different from the Catechism too).

I suggest you read the CCC from cover to cover and the Roman Catechism from cover to cover. THEN go back and re-read the Bible verses you have cited so you can come closer to the mind of the Church.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Greetings in Christ Cathoholic,

You have answered my question from a quote from “St. Gregory of Nazienzen (The Holy Spirit) comes upon Cornelius and his companions before Baptism, to others after Baptism.”

I am not exactly sure what it means:- “(The Holy Spirit) comes upon Cornelius and his companions BEFORE Baptism, to others AFTER Baptism,” I can only guess.

As my question was:- “When is the exact point when catechumens cross the line (Born Again)?”

From my question and from your quote Cathoholic, I only could guess:-

Cornelius and his companions were Born again BEFORE their water baptism and the catechumens Born Again AFTER their water baptism.
Cathoholic, is the answer of St. Gregory of Nazienzen?

In answer to your latest post Cathoholic:- I don’t even know that the Anabaptist religion still exists and I never even heard a single teaching from them.

I consider baptism is a very important event.

Quote: Catholic Essentials – Baptism of Desire, and Baptism of Blood
Summary
“The ordinary Magisterium of the Church has openly taught the three-fold Baptism (water, desire and blood) since the earliest days of the Church. … No Catholic can deny the doctrines Baptism of Desire, or Baptism of Blood.”

[CCC 1262] The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental right.
Immersion in water SYMBOLIZES not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal.
Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.

[CCC 1263] By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. …

[CCC 1265] Baptism not only purifies from all sin, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with Him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

[CCC 1266] The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in Him, and to love Him through the theological virtues;
• giving the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gift of the Holy Spirit.
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

[CCC 1267] Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore … we are members one of another.”
Baptism incorporates us into the Church. … “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.

THEOLOGICAL FACTS ACCORDING TO [CCC 1263; 1265; 1266; 1267]

At that point when God gives us His gift of formed faith:-
He performs His part of our sacrament of baptism and baptizes us into the Body of Christ.
In the Body of Christ God justifies us, makes us Born Again and sanctifies us. – This is an instant event and it is the gift of God, called: – Initial justification.

It is also a theological fact:-
Catechumen cross the line from the spiritual position of the fall to the spiritual position of the Body of Christ AT THAT POINT when God performs His part of their sacrament of Baptism.
At this point they are also Born Again.

THE QUESTION IS:-
God performs His part of the sacrament of Baptism of the catechumens BEFORE the catechumens do their part, or it is a SIMULTANEOUS event?

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[crochet_lady]

Cathoholic

I’ve seen references to the CCC and some to the Roman Catholic Catechism. Have assumed the CCC = Catholic Church Catechism? And Catechism refers to the Catholic Church teachings? But why would there be two different books and who wrote them?

Just wondering

 

[Church_Militant]

Cathoholic

I’ve seen references to the CCC and some to the Roman Catholic Catechism. Have assumed the CCC = Catholic Church Catechism? And Catechism refers to the Catholic Church teachings? But why would there be two different books and who wrote them?

Just wondering

Actually…when used around here they mean the same thing, though you misunderstood the title. It’s Catechism of the Catholic Church (roughly 900 pages) and we do have a number to choose from, some more simple than others, but all taking the same topics in order and saying the same thing. We also have an excellent Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (193 pages) which is really handy and is referenced to the main catechism for more in depth study.

There have been a many catechisms over the centuries, but all they are are documents designed to help teach the essentials of the Catholic faith. The current catechism is probably the most concise and eloquent presentation of authentic Christian doctrine I have ever come across. With its foot notes it is also incredibly in depth. I personally have 2 copies as well as the Compendium and a couple of other older ones that I just got lucky and found. You can, if you have a Kindle (or Kindle for PC program) get the old Baltimore Catechism, No. 1 as well as the other 3 volumes for free on Amazon.

 

[Cathoholic]

crochet lady. You asked:

Cathoholic

I’ve seen references to the CCC and some to the Roman Catholic Catechism. Have assumed the CCC = Catholic Church Catechism? And Catechism refers to the Catholic Church teachings? But why would there be two different books and who wrote them?

Just wondering

crochet lady. Sorry. I haven’t viewed this thread closely for a few days although I have been meaning to (not ignoring your question).

The Roman Catechism is a Catholic Catechetical work that was ordered by the Bishops at the Council of Trent in the 1500’s to help the faithful with their catechesis and compiled shortly after.

The Roman Catechism is still printed from time to time (see here and here for example).

The Roman Catechism is sometimes also called “The Catechism of the Council of Trent”.

• Roman Catechism = Catechism of the Council of Trent

I use frequently both the CCC and the Roman Catechism.

The CCC calls the Roman Catechism “a work of the first rank as a summary of Christian teaching”.

CCC 9 "The ministry of catechesis draws ever fresh energy from the councils. The Council of Trent is a noteworthy example of this. It gave catechesis priority in its constitutions and decrees. It lies at the origin of the Roman Catechism, which is also known by the name of that council and which is a work of the first rank as a summary of Christian teaching. . . ."12 The Council of Trent initiated a remarkable organization of the Church’s catechesis. Thanks to the work of holy bishops and theologians such as St. Peter Canisius, St. Charles Borromeo, St. Turibius of Mongrovejo or St. Robert Bellarmine, it occasioned the publication of numerous catechisms.

Hope this helps.

Lion Heart.

I will try to deal with the “SYMBOLIZES” point from CCC 1262 soon, but a look at the other CCC citations you provided will give you the answer (it is not MERE symbolism).

As long as we are discussing the Roman Catechism, I thought I’d extract a few Roman Catechism quotes about being “born again” for your Baptism files Lion Heart.

There are other references but I have included a few for you here.

ROMAN CATECHISM First comes Baptism, which is the gate, as it were, to all the other Sacraments, and by which we are born again unto Christ. The next is Confirmation, by which we grow up and are strengthened in the grace of God; for, as St. Augustine observes, to the Apostles who had already received Baptism, the Redeemer said: "Stay you in the city till you be endued with power from on high., The third is the Eucharist, that true bread from heaven which nourishes and sustains our souls to eternal life, according to these words of the Saviour . . .

ROMAN CATECHISM

Comparisons among the Sacraments

Though all the Sacraments possess a divine and admirable efficacy, it is well worthy of special remark that all are not of equal necessity or of equal dignity, nor is the signification of all the same.

. . . . The universal and absolute necessity of Baptism our Saviour has declared in these words: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

**ROMAN CATECHISM **

Definition Of Baptism

With regard to the definition of Baptism although many can be given from sacred writers, nevertheless that which may be gathered from the words of our Lord recorded in John, and of the Apostle to the Ephesians, appears the most appropriate and suitable. Unless, says our Lord, a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God; and, speaking of the Church, the Apostle says, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life. Thus it follows that Baptism may be rightly and accurately defined: The Sacrament of regeneration by water in the word. By nature we are born from Adam children of wrath, but by Baptism we are regenerated in Christ, . . . .

**ROMAN CATECHISM **

Baptism Made Obligatory After Christ’s Resurrection

The second period to be distinguished, that is, the time when the law of Baptism was made, also admits of no doubt. Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave to His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved. . . . . By both Apostles the obligation of Baptism seems to be referred to the time which followed the death of our Lord. Hence we can have no doubt that the words of the Saviour: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, refer also to the same time which was to follow after His Passion.

**
ROMAN CATECHISM **

Necessity of Baptism

If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that the law of Baptism, as established by our Lord, extends to all, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction. Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Cathoholic]

Lion Heart.

I said I’d get back to you here about the symbolism issue.

You posted (in post 242):

[CCC 1262] The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental right.
Immersion in water SYMBOLIZES not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal.
Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.

You put in all caps “SYMBOLIZES”.

I am not sure what you mean by that.

It can mean . . . .

**
We have symbolic meaning and literal meaning in Baptism.

Or it can mean . . .

(You think) we have symbolic meaning ONLY in Baptism.**

I touched on this issue in another post.

If you do think Baptism is mere symbolism, I will hang around and try to address the issue.

I have no issue with you asserting symbolism with Baptism, but I will have a big issue if you are trying to say Baptism is MERE symbolism and an even bigger objection if you are trying to say the Catholic Church teaches Baptism is mere symbolism.

What did you mean with the all caps of “symbolizes” in CCC 1262?

 

[classical_hero]

I have heard Protestant evangelical preachers say that baptism DOESNT save you. Wonder what they do with the passage in 1st or 2nd Peter which states that it does save you?

1 Peter 3:21 says this, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Notice how it doesn’t say that it puts our sins away but it is an answer towards God. We are saved by faith and not of works, Baptism is something we do, salvation is 100% God’s work and nothing we can ever do can satisfy the demands of God. Ephesians 2:8,9 Romans 11:6. Nicodemus understood what Jesus was talking about because he knew the first birth of water was talking about the mothers womb, since when we are ready to come out we say “the water broke”. He knew Jesus was first talking our physical birth and when he heard Jesus say “we must be born again” he was thinking physically, since that was the first birth, and we need a new birth from God.

 

[Church_Militant]

1 Peter 3:21 says this, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Notice how it doesn’t say that it puts our sins away but it is an answer towards God. We are saved by faith and not of works, Baptism is something we do, salvation is 100% God’s work and nothing we can ever do can satisfy the demands of God. Ephesians 2:8,9 Romans 11:6. Nicodemus understood what Jesus was talking about because he knew the first birth of water was talking about the mothers womb, since when we are ready to come out we say “the water broke”. He knew Jesus was first talking our physical birth and when he heard Jesus say “we must be born again” he was thinking physically, since that was the first birth, and we need a new birth from God.

Faithful Catholics have no problem with what that verse says, but then you have to resolve that in the context of the rest of the New Testament and in light of passages like Acts 2:38 in which Peter (that same apostolic author) plainly says “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And then Baptists, who, by and large, will tell us that baptism is not necessary for salvation have to reconcile other verses and passages, like the great commission in Matthew 28:19 in which Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ clearly mandates baptism when He says, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

As for your statements about John 3, you seem to miss that Our Lord was offering a double meaning that includes both the eaters of natural human birth, and the waters of baptism. We see many cases of such multiple meanings throughout the Word of God.

Then, finally, St. Paul who is a perennial favorite of most Baptists pretty well blows your whole case right out of the water in when he speaks of his own conversion and says he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’" (Acts 22:16)

These passages make it plain that baptism is sacramental as well as necessary for conversion.

See also the CA articles below:

• Born Again in Baptism
• Born Again - The Bible Way

 

[crochet_lady]

cathoholic

Thanks for defining the terms.

 

[Cathoholic]

crochet lady.

cathoholic

Thanks for defining the terms

You are welcome.

classical_hero. You said RE: John 3:5:

Nicodemus understood what Jesus was talking about because he knew the first birth of water was talking about the mothers womb, since when we are ready to come out we say “the water broke”.

No classical_hero.

JOHN 3:3-5, 23 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. . . . . 22 After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.

Nicodemnus was already born the first time. Yet Jesus still told him he must be born AGAIN.

This being born AGAIN is what Nicodemus needed . . . . .and it was being born of “water and the Spirit”.

• Being “born again” is just what Jesus said it is. It is being born of water and the Spirit.
• Being “born anew” is just what Jesus said it is. It is being born of water and the Spirit.
• Being “born from above” is just what Jesus said it is. It is being born of water and the Spirit.

Being born the FIRST time has to do with amniotic fluid classical_hero, NOT the second time.

All the Christians in the Church knew this. None of the early Christians purported being “born again” as amniotic fluid.

Being born the second time (“born again”) has to do with just what our Lord and Savior said: it is being “born of water and the Spirit”.

classical_hero. You also stated:

. . . . nothing we can ever do can satisfy the demands of God

Like accept Jesus into your heart as “personal Lord and Savior?

Why is it man-made inventions (traditions of men) are not considered “works” but obeying Jesus and being “born of water and the Spirit” is considered a mere “work”?

Why should these traditions of men make void the commandments of God?

classical_hero

1st PETER 3:21a 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you . . . .

My Baptist teachers when I was younger would not say this under ANY context. They just didn’t believe it which is why they would not put this passage forth.

You label yourself as Baptist. You know that. This is NOT a verse we were told to memorize. This verse does not fit the Baptist paradigm classical_hero.

That’s WHY we were never quoted it, we were never told to memorize it, we never were told to race to it in sword drills, and if someone asked questions about things like this, they were reprimanded if they pressed for a good answer.

1st PETER 3:21a 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you . . . .

Do you believe in any context what the Bible says here? That Baptism now saves you?

 

[crochet_lady]

Re – conversation between Jesus Christ and Nicodemus – John 3: :6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” vs 5" Jesus answered " Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
I’m presenting this somewhat backwards – but the context is that Nicodemus was confused by the concept of being born ’ again’. He thought that a person had to actually be Physically born ‘again’ from his mother / the sack of birth water. But a person has to be physically alive 1st and then make the decision to be born ‘of the Spirit’ / the Inner ‘Spiritual’ birth.
And Then comes the decision to be baptized by immersion / water baptism.

And How do we ‘know’ What all the Christians in the early church knew.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by Grace we are saved Through Faith and that Not Of Ourselves – IT is the Gift of God – NOT Of Works - lest any man should boast (about what a good person I’ve been to earn my way to heaven)
Romans 10:9 “that If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved. For with the Heart one Believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
So - What did Jesus Christ DO? He died on the cross with all our sins upon Himself – put in the grave and GOD raised Him from the dead. That was sufficient for God – Should be ‘sufficient’ for Us. We seem to want to help God out – like ‘just in case God isn’t powerful enough – let’s Do ‘something’ on our own to help Him.
"Accepting’ Jesus Into our heart – is Not a ‘work’. It is what it says – Accepting the gift – if the gift Isn’t accepted – it’s not Ours. I can Hand someone a ‘gift’ --but it isn’t Taken it doesn’t become theirs.

I was just looking up 1 Peter 3:21 " There is also an antitype which now saves us – So I looked up ‘antitype’ Unger’s Bible Dictionary " refers back to Hebrews 9:24 which talks about Christ – refering to the fact that Christ only had to offer Himself Once – not as the high priest had to offer repeatedly / year after year. “that which is represented or prefigured as a type. The antitype is the reality which the type prefigured”
The verse goes on to say " not the removal of filth from the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

What I can personally testify to is that After I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior – the Holy Spirit gave me the desire to be baptized at our church – symbolizing what I’d Already chosen to accept/ believe in my heart.

God Also knows the ‘heart’ of each person. He knows Why we choose to do what ever it is that we Do. What Motivates a person To attend Mass every week. Or put money into the offering plate?

Baptism shows others that I’m Not ashamed to acknowledge Jesus Christ as my Savior.

Do we realize that in Some countries – a person who chooses to accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior and openly acknowledges That Would stand a good chance of being put in prison / killed / disowned by family members. Meaning that public baptism Could be a death sentence. But That person Would be Immediately WITH Christ for ever.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Greetings in Christ Cathoholic,

I believe Baptism is literal. I believe symbolic meanings symbolizes literal events.
For example:
Eph.2:1; “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins.”

Quote:
What did you mean with the all caps of “symbolizes” in CCC 1262?
The symbol stands for both of our and God’s literal works in Baptism.

In my opinion:- We should do our practice of baptism in the Apostolic Way described in Acts 2:38-46; Acts 8:29-39.

Acts 2:38-46; The apostles baptized the 3000 ASAP.

Acts 8:29-39 “… Then Philip said, ‘If you believe with all your heart, you may.’ And he answered and said, ‘I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.’
So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. …”

This above is the Apostolic Way to perform/practice baptism.
I don’t know why we have departed from the Apostolic Way to practice our Baptism?

IF ANYONE KNOWS:-

• What it means being on the spiritual position of the Fall.
• What it means being on the spiritual position of the Body of Christ.
• An individual crosses over from the spiritual position of the Fall to the spiritual position of the Body of Christ at baptism.

Therefore no-one could believe that our Catholic Church practice of Baptism for RCIA candidates/catechumens could be correct.

• We Baptize our Catholic babies allowing them to have the Spirit of God to grown and learn in their Catholic family and community.
• Yet for the RCIA/catechumens we expect them to grow and learn without enabling them by Baptism to receive the gifts and teaching of the Holy Spirit.

According to our practice of Baptism:-
The catechumens are on the spiritual position of the fall throughout the whole year until their Baptism.
This is above of course a THEOLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY!!!

Our theologians and our Pope should clear the way that with our practice of Baptism we return back to the Apostolic Way to practice our baptism.

If you ask:-
Who you are to make that statement?

Then I say:-
If you prove with the Scripture or any doctrine which is not contradicts with the Scripture, that a catechumen on the spiritual position of the fall, can learn spiritual things, receive the gifts and teaching of the Holy Spirit, than you have a case.

Until then my statement stands.

THIS IS BELOW THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE FALL:-

a. They are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. They are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. They are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. They are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. They “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: they see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND their UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by means of the Spirit.” – 1 Cor.2:14 (Jerusalem Bible) Emphasize mine.

In the above spiritual position THEY ARE DEAD SPIRITUALLY, they accept NOTHING from the Spirit of God.

AS LONG AS God doesn’t make them spiritually alive (by Baptism) IN CHRIST (in the body of Christ):-

• They stay SPIRITUALLY DEAD (1 Cor.15:22b; Eph.2:1).
• They CAN DO NOTHING (John 15:5).
• They ACCEPT NOTHING from the Spirit of God, they see it ALL AS NONSENSE (1 Cor.2:14).

In the above spiritual position, if anyone teaches them spiritual things they could not respond, they are DEAD spiritually.
It is like teaching mathematics to the physically dead, they will not respond as they are dead physically.

If anyone can prove:- A catechumen can be on the above spiritual position of the fall, I with deep apology with-drawn my statement.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[Cathoholic]

Crochet lady. You stated in post 251:

"Accepting’ Jesus Into our heart – is Not a ‘work’. It is what it says – Accepting the gift – if the gift Isn’t accepted – it’s not Ours. I can Hand someone a ‘gift’ --but it isn’t Taken it doesn’t become theirs.

Well that’s fine.

You also quoted Romans 10:9 (bold mine).

Romans 10:9 "that If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved.

Do you HAVE to “confess with your mouth” crochet lady?

Do you HAVE to “say a sinners prayer” crochet lady?

Do you HAVE to “ask Jesus into your heart as personal Lord and Savior” crochet lady?

Is THAT just “accepting the gift” too?

If the answer for you is “yes”, that’s fine.

But then the answer for me can be “yes” for “being born of water and the Spirit” as being “born again” too! The difference is my way is in the Bible.

Crochet lady, I don’t think your issue of contention is so much with Catholic doctrine so much as it is . . . your issue of contention is against . . . . . the Bible.

In addition you said:

"Accepting’ Jesus Into our heart – is Not a ‘work’. It is what it says – Accepting the gift – if the gift Isn’t accepted – it’s not Ours.

To that I say:

Accepting “being born of water and the Spirit” isn’t a ‘work’ either. It is “Accepting the gift.”. if the gift Isn’t accepted – it’s not Ours.

The only difference is being “born of water and the Spirit” is Biblical.

Merely accepting Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and savior and asserting that is what being “born again” is . . . . . . is an UN-Biblical assertion.

What Catholics affirm is Biblical, what Baptists assert is a man-made tradition.

I’m not trying to be rude. I am just stating what the Bible says vrs. what the Baptists teach (the many differing Baptist belief systems).

And the quote about (“what a good person I’ve been to earn my way to heaven”) is seen by me as Baptist (not Catholic) theology . . . .even though they deny it.

But the Baptists only have to “be good” for that moment. And if they are not “good” afterward, they are merely “backsliders”. Or they never really accepted Jesus into their hearts in the first place even though they said they did. Even though they said they had the very same emotions you are asserting crochet lady.

Their “faith” is in their “moment” and in their “feelings”. But their faith was not in Jesus Christ (I’m not saying this of you crochet lady but about obvious “backsliders”).

 

[Cathoholic]

Lion Heart. You said (ul mine):

I believe Baptism is literal. I believe symbolic meanings symbolizes literal events.

Excellent:thumbsup:!

You also said:

We should do our practice of baptism in the Apostolic Way . . . Acts 2:38-46; Acts 8:29-39.
. . . The apostles baptized the 3000 ASAP.

I would be careful with that motif if you are suggesting bypassing catechesis.

Remember Catholicism is fulfilled Judaism. These Jewish people were already catechized in a certain sense. That’s why Jesus can explain to Jews (in this case His disciples) where He was in the Old Testament (see Luke 24:27). They already knew the Old Testament (notice Jesus catechizes even His disciples here too). Gentiles would not have been able to pick up on this without further catechesis (and even these Jewish people needed some catechesis).

The early Church catechized (as we do now too). They went and taught all nations “everything I have commanded you”, then Baptized them “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”.

NOT MATTHEW 28:19-20a (PHANTOM VERSE) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, NOT bothering teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you until you get around to it later. . .

Here is what is really taught

MATTHEW 28: 19-20a 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you . . .

The evidence is the Ethiopian Eunuch (in Acts 8) had at least some catechesis as well. The fact that he was reading Isaiah tells us such. Now he didn’t understand it, but there are many things you and I still do not understand. Yet we would not refer to ourselves as “unspiritual”.

Recall even many of the brethren themselves lacked understanding about circumcision so much so, that the Apostles had to call a Council at Jerusalem to clear the contentious issue up (Acts 15).

You discussed people who are not yet in a state of grace saying:

THIS IS BELOW THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE FALL

a. They are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. They are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. They are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. They are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

There is truth to what you are saying (although some of the verses have to do with a description of the state of the world before Christ died for us on Calvary).

Then you said:

They “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: they see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND their UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by means of the Spirit.” – 1 Cor.2:14 (Jerusalem Bible) Emphasize mine.

OK. Let’s look at 1st Corinthians 2:14.

1st CORINTHIANS 2:14 14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Yet just 2 verses later we find out they WERE at least somewhat “fed” with “milk” (although admittedly not “solid food”).

1st CORINTHIANS 3:1-3a 1 But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. . . .

WHY do you think these same Corinthians that you described as not being able to understand “anything” (They “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God”) as having the possibility to be able to be fed with “milk”?

I will tell you why. But first let me ask a question.

Jesus said “apart from me you can do nothing” (as Jesus says in John 15:5). Yet they (“still of the flesh”) are able to DO something. They are able to be “fed” with “milk”.

Why is that?

The answer isn’t that they are being “fed” with “milk” apart from Christ. No. Apart from Christ they can do “nothing”.

So they must some how some way be united to Christ, yet imperfectly united.

Christ IS working on them already. That’s WHY I mentioned God’s prevenient grace to you in other posts. That just means “God makes the first move.”

God MUST make the first move. We cannot do it.

So if I asked you: “Why can these guys get fed “milk” apart from Christ?

You should answer: “It is NOT apart from Christ. Christ HAS made the first move on them already. Christ (by grace directly and by grace through St. Paul too for “faith comes from hearing"—a reference that illustrates the need for catechesis incidentally) is “drawing them” to the Father.

Yet Christ is going to draw them deeper into Himself through being born again (“born of water and the Spirit”).

Then when they DO become “spiritual”, when they are Baptized (“born of water and the Spirit”), then they will be fed “meat” or “solid food”.

Then they will have God in them in a special way. Then they will be justified.

But that is only the beginning of their spiritual life with God in them in this special way (that they will get through Baptism).

A catechumen has God’s prevenient grace. If they die they will get a Baptism of desire on their deathbed presumably. If they don’t die, they will not (until they ARE Baptized or “born of water and the Spirit”).

God’s grace acts upon them to continue to draw them, and they cooperate with God’s grace.

THEN they become justified. Then they become “born again”. Then they are born of water and the Spirit”. Then they are Baptized.

As as I said, this is just the beginning of the Spiritual life for them.

 

[Cathoholic]

Crochet lady.

You brought up Romans 10:9 as one of your proofs for not any “work” involved in being “born again” (bold and ul mine).

Romans 10:9 "that If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you WILL be saved.

Do you HAVE TO “confess with your mouth” (as St. Paul says)?

If the answer is yes, then why did you bring it up to show you just “receive the gift” and try to tell me there are no works involved? This (confessing with your mouth) is a “work” is it not?

If the answer is “no”, why would St. Paul suggest the answer is “yes”? And if the answer is “no”, what other “works” can be performed and not be counted as a “work” too (how about being “born of water AND the Spirit”)?