What's the problem with a public recitation of the Rosary in a Byzantine parish?

[Draper]

What’s the problem with a public recitation of the Rosary in a Byzantine parish? Almost 30 years ago when my Byzantine parish opened, members asked to publicly pray the Rosary and permission was granted.

It wasn’t obtrusive or divisive, it also didn’t get in the way of other prayers, but it was a big deal to some who love the prayer. Then a new pastor came along and forbid its public prayer (and he did it in a very coarse manner which is another matter.) I don’t have a horse in this race (I didn’t typically pray the Rosary at church), but what’s the big deal?

If a Latin Rite parish had developed a local tradition of say praying an Akathist before Mass (as a result perhaps of some Eastern Catholics joining the parish), I cannot imagine a pastor becoming upset about that. I cannot imagine it being forbidden 30 years down the road. I suspect it would be a cherished (and defended) parish tradition after 30 years.

It’s interesting to note that the most of the parishes in the eparchy that are doing well do offer weekly public praying of the Rosary. Anyway, what’s the big deal?

 

[babochka]

What’s the problem with a public recitation of the Rosary in a Byzantine parish? Almost 30 years ago when my Byzantine parish opened, members asked to publicly pray the Rosary and permission was granted.

It wasn’t obtrusive or divisive**, it also didn’t get in the way of other prayers**, but it was a big deal to some who love the prayer.

If the rosary was prayed before the Divine Liturgy, but Matins or the 3rd hour was not being prayed, then it was getting in the way of other prayers which are proper to the traditions of the Byzantine Church. The issue is not with the rosary. It is a beautiful devotion and I pray it myself. We need to dilligently preserve our traditions. History has shown that if we fail to do so and allow Latin traditions to become the norm, our own traditions will disappear. The Church has asked us to avoid this, and to recover and preserve our own traditions. Thirty years ago, we were not quite so far down this road.

t’s interesting to note that the most of the parishes in the eparchy that are doing well do offer weekly public praying of the Rosary. Anyway, what’s the big deal?

How do you define “doing well”? Since I’ve only had the opportunity to visit a handful of the parishes in the eparchy, I can only judge “doing well” by the numbers released for the Bishop’s Appeal. But attendance numbers and number of registered families simply do not tell the whole picture. You cannot glean information on the spiritual health of the parish just by looking at financial information or attendance numbers.

I just checked the websites of each of the parishes and missions in the eparchy. None of them listed a public recitation of the rosary on the schedule. None of the parishes that I have visited (6) has a public recitation of the rosary, at least not on a regularly scheduled basis.

 

[JRS_88]

If the rosary was prayed before the Divine Liturgy, but Matins or the 3rd hour was not being prayed, then it was getting in the way of other prayers which are proper to the traditions of the Byzantine Church. The issue is not with the rosary. It is a beautiful devotion and I pray it myself. We need to dilligently preserve our traditions. History has shown that if we fail to do so and allow Latin traditions to become the norm, our own traditions will disappear. The Church has asked us to avoid this, and to recover and preserve our own traditions. Thirty years ago, we were not quite so far down this road.

Well said.

 

[Draper]

If the rosary was prayed before the Divine Liturgy, but Matins or the 3rd hour was not being prayed, then it was getting in the way of other prayers which are proper to the traditions of the Byzantine Church. The issue is not with the rosary. It is a beautiful devotion and I pray it myself. We need to dilligently preserve our traditions. History has shown that if we fail to do so and allow Latin traditions to become the norm, our own traditions will disappear. The Church has asked us to avoid this, and to recover and preserve our own traditions. Thirty years ago, we were not quite so far down this road.

As I noted, the Rosary didn’t displace any Eastern traditions. The situation you constructed didn’t exist in my parish – I thought I had made that clear.

I’m just curious why a public recitation of the rosary is looked upon as being so negative while say the public prayer of the chotki in a Latin Rite parish wouldn’t be?

How do you define “doing well”? Since I’ve only had the opportunity to visit a handful of the parishes in the eparchy, I can only judge “doing well” by the numbers released for the Bishop’s Appeal. But attendance numbers and number of registered families simply do not tell the whole picture. You cannot glean information on the spiritual health of the parish just by looking at financial information or attendance numbers.

One that is growing rather than contracting. One where people are actually happy. One that exhibits spiritual and financial health.

I just checked the websites of each of the parishes and missions in the eparchy. None of them listed a public recitation of the rosary on the schedule. None of the parishes that I have visited (6) has a public recitation of the rosary, at least not on a regularly scheduled basis.

So?

 

[babochka]

As I noted, the Rosary didn’t displace any Eastern traditions.

Many years ago, when I first visited your parish, a rosary was prayed immediately before the Divine Liturgy. Neither Matins nor the 3rd hour was on the public schedule. Perhaps such things were known by word-of-mouth and not shared with visitors.

One that is growing rather than contracting. One where people are actually happy. One that exhibits spiritual and financial health.

So?

You made the statement that the majority of parishes in the eparchy that are actually doing well have a public recitation of the rosary. Since the published schedules do not include that information, I’m wondering what the basis for that claim is.

I asked about the criteria for “doing well” because I can’t understand how you can assess the total health of a parish without having spent considerable time there. A parish can have its finances in order and still have declining attendance, unhappy people and spiritual stagnantion. Likewise, a growing, vibrant parish can have financial difficulties.

 

[Draper]

Many years ago, when I first visited your parish, a rosary was prayed immediately before the Divine Liturgy. Neither Matins nor the 3rd hour was on the public schedule. Perhaps such things were known by word-of-mouth and not shared with visitors.

Yes and later another pastor made room for all three – not that the Rosary had ever taken the place of the other two. The other two had just never been implemented, irrespective of the Rosary. You’re trying to suggest the Rosary took the place of Eastern prayers by design and it did not. As I said, I don’t have a horse in this race but please don’t try to suggest the public prayer of the Rosary took the time slot of other prayers.

Then another pastor came along and forbid the Rosary – as if he was accomplishing something by doing so. I cannot imagine a Latin Rite pastor forbidding the praying of an Akathist at some point before the Mass – particularly if it was a 30 year old tradition at the parish.

You made the statement that the majority of parishes in the eparchy that are actually doing well have a public recitation of the rosary. Since the published schedules do not include that information, I’m wondering what the basis for that claim is.

Perhaps you needed to attend the recent clergy retreat or debrief someone who did?

I asked about the criteria for “doing well” because I can’t understand how you can assess the total health of a parish without having spent considerable time there. A parish can have its finances in order and still have declining attendance, unhappy people and spiritual stagnantion. Likewise, a growing, vibrant parish can have financial difficulties.

I’ve been a member of my EC parish since the Jubilee Year of 2000. Plenty of time to understand what’s going on. The metrics I mentioned (both qualitative and quantitative) are valid.

 

[babochka]

Yes and later another pastor made room for all three – not that the Rosary had ever taken the place of the other two. The other two had just never been implemented, irrespective of the Rosary. You’re trying to suggest the Rosary took the place of Eastern prayers by design and it did not. As I said, I don’t have a horse in this race but please don’t try to suggest the public prayer of the Rosary took the time slot of other prayers.

I am trying to suggest no such thing, and I do not believe it to ever be the case. The rosary is a popular private devotion and, of course, parishioners might want to pray it together, in public. But it is not the prayer of the Church. I’m saying that if we are going to recover and preserve our traditions, we need to be proactive in reinstating them and zealous in protecting them. This should come from the pastor and be supported by the people. It is understandable that our parishes might not be able to do it all, Saturday night Great vespers, Sunday morning Matins, etc. But those should be implemented before and in place of other devotions as an official practice of the Church. Now, if a bunch of parishioners want to get together prior to the Divine Liturgy and pray the rosary, that’s fantastice. Hopefully, they’ll do it early enough so that they aren’t disturbed in their prayer by the public praying of the hours. The rosary, a private devotion, should never supplant the public prayer of the Church.

Then another pastor came along and forbid the Rosary – as if he was accomplishing something by doing so. I cannot imagine a Latin Rite pastor forbidding the praying of an Akathist at some point before the Mass – particularly if it was a 30 year old tradition at the parish.

If he simply forbade the praying of the rosary in the church, I understand why this would cause problems. If he said that the rosary would need to be stopped because the parish was going to begin praying Matins or the Third Hour, then I think that is entirely appropriate. Of course, these things should always be approached with sensitivity and education.

Perhaps you needed to attend the recent clergy retreat or debrief someone who did?

The clergy retreat has not yet been held this year, but I have talked ot my pastor about the recent clergy conference, particularly regarding the talk on a parish’s internet presence, which was given by a fellow parishioner. We have also spoken extensively (before and after the conference) about the health and viability of other parishes, since that is an area of great interest to me.

I’ve been a member of my EC parish since the Jubilee Year of 2000. Plenty of time to understand what’s going on. The metrics I mentioned (both qualitative and quantitative) are valid.

I was not questioning your qualifications to judge the health of your own parish. You stated that a parish can be judged as “doing well” based on the following criteria.

One that is growing rather than contracting. One where people are actually happy. One that exhibits spiritual and financial health.

You also stated:

It’s interesting to note that the most of the parishes in the eparchy that are doing well do offer weekly public praying of the Rosary.

I find your method of judging the health of a parish to be valid, but only someone who has spent considerable time at the parish would be able to accurately assess whether the parishioners are happy and spirituall well-off. I also questioned your assertion that these (unnamed) parishes that are doing well offer weekly public praying of the Rosary. If this is accurate, they do not advertise it. If it not on their published schedule offered for parishioners and the public, I would assume any such praying of the rosary is a private occurence at the church, rather than a church-sponsored rosary. Of course, any public praying of the rosary is simply a number of people coming together for a private devotion. A number of our largest parishes offer weekly Great Vespers on Saturday and Matins on Sunday morning before Divine liturgy.

 

[5Loaves]

If the rosary was prayed before the Divine Liturgy, but Matins or the 3rd hour was not being prayed, then it was getting in the way of other prayers which are proper to the traditions of the Byzantine Church. The issue is not with the rosary. It is a beautiful devotion and I pray it myself. We need to dilligently preserve our traditions. History has shown that if we fail to do so and allow Latin traditions to become the norm, our own traditions will disappear. The Church has asked us to avoid this, and to recover and preserve our own traditions. Thirty years ago, we were not quite so far down this road.

Well said. Our clergy have sometimes had a struggle with helping the laity with this recovering and preserving our own traditions. Something that was done for one generation gets seen as “tradition”. It’s up to all of us to value our true patrimony, and help our children and new attenders become familiar with them.

About six years ago our deacon decided to introduce 3rd Hour. Knowing I’ve spent a lot of time in Orthodox services, and that I was committed to doing whatever I could to assist our clergy, he handed me the book and said “Here. You know what this sounds like, you can do this.” That was the only instruction I had initially. Later at PSALM workshops when individual tutoring sessions were offered I took advantage of them to work with the tutor, who was very supportive of what I’d been doing, and gave me some good feedback. I’ve subsequently “trained” at least three others in the parish to chant the Hours. I’ve found that few people want to do it, but when someone does they are really happy to be asked and to have the opportunity. It’s a special relationship between the person chanting and the priest doing proskomedia.

I give the deacon at the my parish kudos for just telling me to do it. He knew I was willing to do just about anything the clergy asked me to do even if I felt lacking in ability. As a result 3rd Hour is chanted regularly now. But I don’t know that it would be if I hadn’t also taken the initiative to mentor the others, asking basically anyone who came to the parish for more than a month if they would like to do the Hours. Again, most said they did not, but three did.

 

[dvdjs]

I know that St John Chrysostom in Seattle does the rosary on Sundays, although it is spoken not chanted, as in the old country and in older times.

But the rosary is after Matins and before the third hour that precedes the Divine Liturgy. Praying the rosary has been a fruitful tradition in the BCC, but I think it a good idea to strongly prioritize putting energy into the prescribed services.

 

[babochka]

I know that St John Chrysostom in Seattle does the rosary on Sundays, although it is spoken not chanted, as in the old country and in older times.

But the rosary is after Matins and before the third hour that precedes the Divine Liturgy. Praying the rosary has been a fruitful tradition in the BCC, but I think it a good idea to strongly prioritize putting energy into the prescribed services.

I saw that when I was looking at websites. That is fantastic that they still manage to pray Matins, as well as the rosary.

 

[Draper]

I know that St John Chrysostom in Seattle does the rosary on Sundays, although it is spoken not chanted, as in the old country and in older times.

But the rosary is after Matins and before the third hour that precedes the Divine Liturgy. Praying the rosary has been a fruitful tradition in the BCC, but I think it a good idea to strongly prioritize putting energy into the prescribed services.

Nice…

You’re right – nothing should take the place of prescribed services. I very much agree with that. The situation I was asking about is akin to what you describe.

Some here are struggling to construct a situation where a non-Eastern devotion took the place of a prescribed service by design and simply put, I wasn’t asking about that.

 

[JimmyG88]

As if there aren’t enough problems in the world including falling mass attendances. I would imagine this priest should have better things to do rather than ban s form of prayer. And it’s salient that ‘traditions’ were inovarions at one time so why can’t the today become normal in this church

 

[RyanBlack]

As if there aren’t enough problems in the world including falling mass attendances. I would imagine this priest should have better things to do rather than ban s form of prayer. And it’s salient that ‘traditions’ were inovarions at one time so why can’t the today become normal in this church

If it’s in addition to the prescribed services of the Eastern tradition, it’s not a problem. If it’s done in the place of the prescribed services of the Eastern tradition, then that is a problem.

 

[Ignatius]

What’s the problem with a public recitation of the Rosary in a Byzantine parish? Almost 30 years ago when my Byzantine parish opened, members asked to publicly pray the Rosary and permission was granted.

It’s not actually a Byzantine practice. Many feel that the Chotki or Komboskini is more appropriate as it is within the Eastern Church tradition.

 

[babochka]

Some here are struggling to construct a situation where a non-Eastern devotion took the place of a prescribed service by design and simply put, I wasn’t asking about that.

You misinterpreted my words and ignored my clarification. I never stated, thought, nor implied that this was “by design”. I would imagine (though I don’t have any personal knowledge of the events in your parish 30 years ago) that a group of people just wanted to pray together and invite others to join them. No design. They might not have even known that there was a genuine Byzantine tradition that rightfully belonged in that time frame.

 

[JRS_88]

If it’s in addition to the prescribed services of the Eastern tradition, it’s not a problem. If it’s done in the place of the prescribed services of the Eastern tradition, then that is a problem.

Yes, well said.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

You misinterpreted my words and ignored my clarification. I never stated, thought, nor implied that this was “by design”. I would imagine (though I don’t have any personal knowledge of the events in your parish 30 years ago) that a group of people just wanted to pray together and invite others to join them. No design. They might not have even known that there was a genuine Byzantine tradition that rightfully belonged in that time frame.

I think that’s a fair assumption, babochka. Cradle Byzantines old enough to remember 30 years ago will also acknowledge a number of Latinizations that were so well integrated into praxis that they would not have been discernable as such by many.

Back East, the Rosary is still recited every Sunday before Divine Liturgy in my parish. We are unable to have Matins at out parish, so this time is available for private prayer within the church. That said, I do think we’d meet some resistance if there came a time when Matins could be scheduled on Sunday morning.

 

[Draper]

If it’s in addition to the prescribed services of the Eastern tradition, it’s not a problem. If it’s done in the place of the prescribed services of the Eastern tradition, then that is a problem.

That was my question though. When it was banned (“that’s not our tradition”) it was prayed IN ADDITION to ALL the prescribed services.

Had the Rosary been intentionally prayed in substitution of a prescribed service, then yes, I see why it would be eliminated or at least moved to make room for a prescribed service. No question.

But to ban it simply because its origin is in the West makes no sense to me.

 

[babochka]

I think that’s a fair assumption, babochka. Cradle Byzantines old enough to remember 30 years ago will also acknowledge a number of Latinizations that were so well integrated into praxis that they would not have been discernable as such by many.

Back East, the Rosary is still recited every Sunday before Divine Liturgy in my parish. We are unable to have Matins at out parish, so this time is available for private prayer within the church. That said, I do think we’d meet some resistance if there came a time when Matins could be scheduled on Sunday morning.

I know what you mean. I grew up in a west-coast parish in the 1970s. We practiced infant communion at that time, so it seemed normal to me. It was only fairly recently (within the last 5-10 years) that I realized that many parishes did not restore infant communion until relatively recently, and that many faithful parishioners strongly resisted the change. I also remember when we were instructed not to kneel for the consecration - how uncomfortable that was for many of us, because we’d “always” done it that way.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I know what you mean. I grew up in a west-coast parish in the 1970s. We practiced infant communion at that time, so it seemed normal to me. It was only fairly recently (within the last 5-10 years) that I realized that many parishes did not restore infant communion until relatively recently, and that many faithful parishioners strongly resisted the change. I also remember when we were instructed not to kneel for the consecration - how uncomfortable that was for many of us, because we’d “always” done it that way.

I recall you mentioning infant communion some while back - way ahead of its time, comparatively.

Despite having a married priest with family (a real rarity for our generation), we wore cassocks with surplices as altar servers and I was catechized for First Communion via the Baltimore Catechism.