What's the problem with a public recitation of the Rosary in a Byzantine parish?

[Peter_J]

I’m just curious why a **public recitation of the rosary is looked upon as being so negative **while say the public prayer of the chotki in a Latin Rite parish wouldn’t be?

If someone blanketly condemns public recitation of the rosary (and I don’t doubt that there exist GCs who do precisely that – after all, on pretty much any side of any question, one can find extremists) then that’s quite wrong.

 

[5Loaves]

If the rosary was prayed before the Divine Liturgy, but Matins or the 3rd hour was not being prayed, then it was getting in the way of other prayers which are proper to the traditions of the Byzantine Church. The issue is not with the rosary.
Draper;13036038:

Yes and later another pastor made room for all three – not that the Rosary had ever taken the place of the other two. The other two had just never been implemented, irrespective of the Rosary.

You’re trying to suggest the Rosary took the place of Eastern prayers by design and it did not. As I said, I don’t have a horse in this race but please don’t try to suggest the public prayer of the Rosary took the time slot of other prayers.

What did you mean when you said [Matins or the 3rd hour] “The other two had just never been implemented”?

That was my question though. When it was banned (“that’s not our tradition”) it was prayed IN ADDITION to ALL the prescribed services.

So do I understand correctly, that presently your parish has Matins and the 3rd hour prayed before the Liturgy?
And the public recitation of the Rosary is no longer prayed?

 

[5Loaves]

I think that’s a fair assumption, babochka. Cradle Byzantines old enough to remember 30 years ago will also acknowledge a number of Latinizations that were so well integrated into praxis that they would not have been discernable as such by many.

Back East, the Rosary is still recited every Sunday before Divine Liturgy in my parish. We are unable to have Matins at out parish, so this time is available for private prayer within the church. That said, I do think we’d meet some resistance if there came a time when Matins could be scheduled on Sunday morning.

Our clergy have sometimes had a struggle with helping the laity with this recovering and preserving our own traditions. Something that was done for one generation gets seen as “tradition”. It’s up to all of us to value our true patrimony, and help our children and new attenders become familiar with them.

I’ve heard so many lay and clergy say this.
It is a pastoral issue in which the laity share a part, to help restore a patrimony that is deeper than the current few generations still living. I’ve had a number of clergy, including at least one bishop, say these are also a part of the fallout of the Soviet era, the EC Churches survival when they were so badly suppressed. I have heard likewise stories of Eastern Catholic children who went to Roman Catholic schools here where the nuns shamed them for the way they crossed themselves and where devotions and practices of the East were demeaned and dismissed. Thankfully that era is over. But I have run across a very strong current in some priests and laity who want it to be known “We are CATHOLIC, NOT Orthodox” and see some Latinizations as a proof that they are Catholic, not Orthodox.

When we show our own love for the public prayers proper to our Churches hopefully that helps moves things forward in this long term restoration of faithful practices.

 

[Draper]

If someone blanketly condemns public recitation of the rosary (and I don’t doubt that there exist GCs who do precisely that – after all, on pretty much any side of any question, one can find extremists) then that’s quite wrong.

I agree.

 

[Peter_J]

I agree.

Thanks, Draper.

The thing is, this isn’t about someone blanketly condemning public recitation of the rosary, but rather about one specific priest deciding not to have it in his particular parish. Since I wasn’t there I can’t speak to whether he was wrong to do that.

 

[5Loaves]

Someone posted this today on Facebook from Fr James Siemens’ blog SYMPOSIUM. Father James is priest at St Theodore of Tarsus Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Cardiff.

I suggest reading the entire post, not only these excerpts.

True to TraditionThe Eastern Catholic equivalent to Roman Catholic liturgical abuse is the issue of ‘Latinisation’. Those of you who are of the Eastern Tradition will understand what I mean, but for those of you reading this from a Latin (or Roman, or Western) perspective, it is important to understand that this is no insult to the venerable Latin Tradition. It is merely to say that what properly belongs to one Church’s life should not be co-opted by the other in what ends up being a pale imitation of the other’s practice. Examples of this would be Eastern Christians doing Stations of the Cross in Lent, or saying the Rosary in public, or using Western-style hymns. There is obviously no problem with any of these forms of worship in their own right, but when taken on by Christians of an ancient, apostolic Rite who have their own beautiful, noble, and profoundly meaningful, forms, they are not only pointless, but can even be destructive.

…The Eastern Churches need to be faithful to their inheritance, as the Latin Church needs to be faithful to hers. There is scope on the part of both East and West to take account of the other, but this does not and should not entail any syncretism or confusion. Let the rosary be prayed, but let it be done by those whose vocation it is. Meanwhile, let those of us of the East boldly manifest the beauty and mystery that is genuinely ours, and so be true to our vocation.

 

[Draper]

Someone posted this today on Facebook from Fr James Siemens’ blog SYMPOSIUM. Father James is priest at St Theodore of Tarsus Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Cardiff.

I suggest reading the entire post, not only these excerpts.

The public prayer of the Rosary in an EC parish is in no way analogous to a “liturgical abuse.” That’s simply incorrect.

While it would be wrong not to celebrate a prescribed service, it would be wrong not to if the time space was left empty, or another activity was done in its place.

 

[Peter_J]

The public prayer of the Rosary in an EC parish is in no way analogous to a “liturgical abuse.” .

on this point I agree with you.

But going back to the particular situation, your priest did not blanketly condemn the practice, but merely decided against it for your parish. Not being there, I cannot comment on whether that was a good or bad decision.

 

[Peter_J]

Hold on a second. Now this priest has decided to “ban forms of prayer”? Did I miss something here?

 

[Medical_Student]

When I see Latin rite parishes en masse taking on Eastern Catholic traditions, then I’ll pray the rosary in my parish, thanks.

…oh wait…maybe we should keep our traditions honorable and not dilute them in false ecumenism…blech

Already so many Latinizations as it is. Pray the rosary by yourself or outside of any Mass time, and don’t neglect your own faith traditions to pray it.

 

[Draper]

When I see Latin rite parishes en masse taking on Eastern Catholic traditions, then I’ll pray the rosary in my parish, thanks.

…oh wait…maybe we should keep our traditions honorable and not dilute them in false ecumenism…blech

Already so many Latinizations as it is. Pray the rosary by yourself or outside of any Mass time, and don’t neglect your own faith traditions to pray it.

Absolutely not.

Praying the Rosary is not a “latinization.” In no way does it impinge on any EC liturgy.

You’re providing an absolute perfect example of what I am asking about. Banning something (in this case the praying of the Rosary) simply because it began in the West.

Not because it’s being prayed in place of a prescribed service/prayer. But simply because it began in the West.

A liturgical latinization would be adding something to an actual EC liturgy (eg. use of santus bells as prescribed in the Mass) when it has no business being added. That’s not what we are talking about in this case.

Maybe it’s largely about ignorance and anger?

 

[dvdjs]

Absolutely not.
Praying the Rosary is not a “latinization.” In no way does it impinge on any EC liturgy.

1. There is no requirement that there something must "impinge on any EC liturgy: for it to be a Latinization. If it is a devotion that is alien to common EC practice and imported from Latin practice, then it is a Latinization, period.
2. Opinions vary on whether or not such imports are a bad thing, ipso facto. Rome thinks so. I don’t care as much, as long as these imports do not inhibit our authentic practice.
3. Parishes should do matins and/or the third hour before Sunday divine liturgy. If the rosary is said in addition - not instead of - fine by me.
4. Nevertheless, it is for a bishop and his priests to decide what is the right thing to do in a given parish; An over attachment to Latin practices could inhibit growth in Eastern traditions. 5. Their decision will involve considerable discernment as to what is best for a given parish; it should be accepted.and respected.

 

[Draper]

1. There is no requirement that there something must "impinge on any EC liturgy: for it to be a Latinization. If it is a devotion that is alien to common EC practice and imported from Latin practice, then it is a Latinization, period.
2. Opinions vary on whether or not such imports are a bad thing, ipso facto. Rome thinks so. I don’t care as much, as long as these imports do not inhibit our authentic practice.
3. Parishes should do matins and/or the third hour before Sunday divine liturgy. If the rosary is said in addition - not instead of - fine by me.
4. Nevertheless, it is for a bishop and his priests to decide what is the right thing to do in a given parish; An over attachment to Latin practices could inhibit growth in Eastern traditions. 5. Their decision will involve considerable discernment as to what is best for a given parish; it should be accepted.and respected.

The public praying of the Rosary in an EC church is not a “latinization” – unless it was added to the celebration of an EC liturgy of course.

As I said at the beginning, I don’t have a dog in this race. I’m just curious as to why some attack things simply because they originated in the West? I cannot imagine that happening in the Latin Rite. Say prohibiting the praying of the Chotki prior to Mass simply because the tradition began in the East?

It seems to me that the very real concern of actual “latinizations” have been incorrectly and over zealously applied by some largely because of ignorance and in some cases anger.

I suspect if the decision to ban the public prayer of the Rosary in my EC parish had included “considerable discernment as to what is best for a given parish”, there would have been far more acceptance – if a change had been instituted at all.

 

[wynd]

The public praying of the Rosary in an EC church is not a “latinization” – unless it was added to the celebration of an EC liturgy of course.

As I said at the beginning, I don’t have a dog in this race. I’m just curious as to why some attack things simply because they originated in the West? I cannot imagine that happening in the Latin Rite. Say prohibiting the praying of the Chotki prior to Mass simply because the tradition began in the East?

It seems to me that the very real concern of actual “latinizations” have been incorrectly and over zealously applied by some largely because of ignorance and in some cases anger.

I suspect if the decision to ban the public prayer of the Rosary in my EC parish had included “considerable discernment as to what is best for a given parish”, there would have been far more acceptance – if a change had been instituted at all.

Who’s “attacking” the rosary? You can acknowledge the good of something while at the same time not participate in that thing.

 

[babochka]

The public praying of the Rosary in an EC church is not a “latinization” – unless it was added to the celebration of an EC liturgy of course.

Of course it is.

That’s not to say that all latinization is automatically wrong. Our own prayer of absolution contains a latinization that was also adopted by the Russian Orthodox Church in the 17th century. I don’t see a large movement clamoring to remove it, though it is clearly a latinization.

The problem only comes in when it replaces or distracts from authentic Byzantine liturgical practices, theology, or spirituality. It doesn’t just have to be liturgical to be a latinization.

As I said at the beginning, I don’t have a dog in this race. I’m just curious as to why some attack things simply because they originated in the West?

I think it based on a healthy understanding of the past, and a realizaton that those days are not necessarily behind us. Some do overreact to the slightest thing, only because they realize the need to protect our traditions, and are perhaps over-zealous in doing so.

I cannot imagine that happening in the Latin Rite. Say prohibiting the praying of the Chotki prior to Mass simply because the tradition began in the East?

Do you mean the Jesus prayer (using a chotki), prayed corporately, in the way that the rosary is prayed? I’ve never seen or read about it done that way, although maybe it is done in some monasteries.

Frankly, I’d think there would be considerable resistance in most Latin parishes. You’d hear, “Why don’t we just pray a rosary instead? How about a Divine Mercy chaplet? Maybe we should start the devotion to Our Lady of Perpetual help?” For the most part, they are working to recover their own tradition of devotions. I think the resistance would mostly come from the people themselves.

Sure, you might get some people interested in praying the Akathist from time to time, in order to be introduced to it or for novelty, or those who embrace the Jesus Prayer, on a chotki or otherwise, in their private lives. But mostly, it would just be novelty. There is such a multitude of devotions in the Latin Rite and so many to be discovered. But, you have a point. Pope Francis wears a chotki and presumably uses it for prayer. It has been commented on positively by many in the East. Can you imagine the outrage if an Eastern Patriarch were to be seen publicly, in the same, manner, with a rosary.

 

[Draper]

…Do you mean the Jesus prayer (using a chotki)…

No, I mean praying the chotki. A very common colloquialism in the East.

 

[Draper]

Who’s “attacking” the rosary? You can acknowledge the good of something while at the same time not participate in that thing.

Please don’t judge without knowing the facts. I was unable to be physically in attendance back when the Rosary used to be prayed.

 

[Peter_J]

Please don’t judge without knowing the facts. I was unable to be physically in attendance back when the Rosary used to be prayed.

I’m not sure that has anything to do with Wynd’s question. But even if it does, the question is a good one.

It seems to various posters on this thread think that, if an EC priest decided not to have the rosary in his parish, then he is “banning” it or “attacking” it, or both. I cannot but take offense at that idea.

 

[Cavaradossi]

No, I mean praying the chotki. A very common colloquialism in the East.

Huh?

 

[dvdjs]

The public praying of the Rosary in an EC church is
not a “latinization” – unless it was added to the celebration of an EC liturgy of course.

You are simply wrong on this point. Please read this: ewtn.com/library/curia/eastinst.htm The issue of Latinization is about the entire scope of praxis not just the DL.

I’m just curious as to why some attack things simply because they originated in the West?

Your presupposition about things being “attacked” because they originated in the West has no foundation.

It seems to me that the very real concern of actual “latinizations” have been incorrectly and over zealously applied by some largely because of ignorance and in some cases anger.

While I would agree that overzealous can be a problem in these matters, I have not encountered ignorance or anger. Such a harsh judgment requires a compelling evidence.

Does this strike you are overzealous?

… John Paul II who declares: “If, therefore, you must trim extraneous forms and developments, deriving from various influences that come from liturgical and paraliturgical traditions foreign to your tradition, it is possible that, so doing, you will have to also correct some popular habits.”[24]

I suspect if the decision to ban the public prayer of the Rosary in my EC parish had included “considerable discernment as to what is best for a given parish”, there would have been far more acceptance – if a change had been instituted at all.

What possesses you to suggest that there wasn’t “considerable discernment as to what is best for a given parish” ?