What's with all the anti women threads recently??

[Nimzovik]

Meltzerboy wrote:“Sorry, Debora, I haven’t looked at the specific threads in question and, taking your word for it, stand corrected.** I just thought that since the submission of women to men, inside or outside the family, is against Catholic teaching, informed Catholics would not express such views.** I might have expected this from perhaps Southern Baptist traditionalists rather than Catholics. But maybe I’m wrong about the position of the Southern Baptist leadership as well, as I recall they may have changed their views about women’s place in the home and the workforce several years ago.”

Bold Lettering Mine:

Interesting. So. Are we to simply totally negate the teachings of St. Paul?

Are the teachings of St. Paul against Catholic Church’s teachings?

 

[Debora123]

Meltzerboy wrote:“Sorry, Debora, I haven’t looked at the specific threads in question and, taking your word for it, stand corrected.** I just thought that since the submission of women to men, inside or outside the family, is against Catholic teaching, informed Catholics would not express such views.** I might have expected this from perhaps Southern Baptist traditionalists rather than Catholics. But maybe I’m wrong about the position of the Southern Baptist leadership as well, as I recall they may have changed their views about women’s place in the home and the workforce several years ago.”

Bold Lettering Mine:

Interesting. So. Are we to simply totally negate the teachings of St. Paul?

Are the teachings of St. Paul against Catholic Church’s teachings?

We are Catholic not protestant. There are a lot of things in the bible that are not binding on Catholics.

But for what it’s worth, St Paul doesn’t teach that women should all submit to their husbands, and neither does the Church. But rather, the teaching is that each spouse has to submit to each other.

One of the posters here did a really good job of addressing this on the very first page of this thread:

Originally Posted by Ephesians 5
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

 

[TrueLight]

If you’ll recall, there are specific posters that pop up time to time that tell us that NFP is immoral, a light kiss during the Sign of Peace is out of order, the Novus Ordo form of the Mass is “wrong” or at least vulgar (despite the fact that there was basically no set Mass form for hundreds of years in the early Church) and that the world is truly going to hell this time around despite the fact that it’s always been messed up.

And on the flip side you’ve got others saying the Church doesn’t know what it’s talking about when it comes to contraception and they can do whatever they want. And I’ve never run across a real-life population that’s been so littered with annulments and interfaith marriages that didn’t receive dispensations.

Basically, it’s a cross-section of humanity and human beings are pretty darn imperfect.

You’re mixing up a whole bunch of issues.

 

[TrueLight]

Submission of a wife to her husband is anti-Catholic?

 

[Nimzovik]

I am a feminist.

I think abortion is actually extremely anti feminist. It violates a woman’s most distinctive/characteristic feminine instinct - her maternal instinct.

I also think it’s anti feminist to campaign for women priests. Priesthood is a God given male vocation, and saying that women should be priests is like saying women need to be like men. We don’t need to be like men, and neither should we *want *to be like men. We are great as just being women.

I must I say, am always fascinated when a Catholic refers to themselves as a Feminist.
There are non atheist based pro woman groups that **far **more represent the Christian context rather than the those termed as ‘Feminist’ by todays’ standards, I should think.

It is hard for me to* not* associate* A*bortion and Planned Parenthood with the likes of today’s such ‘Feminist’ Icons as Margaret Sanger, Sebellius and Pelosi. And yes I say ‘Feminism’ as defined by Modern Day Feminists, is, fundamentally entwined with Atheism just as it is fundamentally entwined with Planned Parenthood. I personally equate Atheism with Planned Parenthood. How can one not? It is certainly not a Christian ideal, now is it?

I do realize that perhaps many may take umbrage with what I just said. Many will say such things like " I just admire the ‘equal pay for equal work’ aspects of feminism, that is why I call myself a Feminist.

Interesting it is, how Feminism can be such an amorphous entity isn’t it? A flex elect philosophical system that adapts itself to any crowd with whom one may be speaking.

I should think that a Catholic would rather want to say " I am a member of the "Holy Family"model of feminity that advocates for the sanctity and grace and equality of women as per the teachings of Christ. Or at least some similar descriptor. A descriptor that, renders glory to Our Lord, as opposed to …Gloria Stienem.

And of course there is the term Feminism itself, as I have posted elsewhere, that by it’s very definition is exclusionary in regard to it’s very title. At no juncture in the term Feminsim, do I see the male being advocated for as well. Ergo methinks that Feminism as defined today, is just another self interest serving lobbying group that says me, me me. If not so, then why not, instead of Feminist, be called We-ist or Us - ist?

Why would any Catholic wish to be even remotely connected to such a, well, shall we say dubious, at best, organization

I do understand however, why Atheists call themselves Feminists.

 

[Nimzovik]

Submission of a wife to her husband is anti-Catholic?

You caught that one too eh?

 

[Nimzovik]

We are Catholic not protestant. There are a lot of things in the bible that are not binding on Catholics.

But for what it’s worth, St Paul doesn’t teach that women should all submit to their husbands, and neither does the Church. But rather, the teaching is that each spouse has to submit to each other.

One of the posters here did a really good job of addressing this on the very first page of this thread:

I fail to see the logic of the presented exegisis in the quote

 

[LucyLight]

Great this is turning into an anti women thread already. You can’t even bring up women without the whole thread going south.

I honestly wish that a rule could be made around here that strongly discourages that kind of language. The amount of posts written blaming women, telling women what their place is in society, and what they should and should not do makes Catholics look really bad.

 

[Nimzovik]

Ah.** There** it is. The first association response.* It goes like this* “If one disagrees with feminism one is a woman hater.”

Tish Tosh.

And pray tell. What language, specifically, was offensive to you?

May** I** assert, that such tactics are rather, transparent and not inoffensive as well?

 

[severus68]

This.

I think some of the people making these threads are divorced enough from the rest of us that they don’t view these things as being anti-women, whereas we do.

Agreed, and I’m a guy.

The “man is head of the household” stuff is out of control.

Notice the following points:

1. Ephesians 5:21 is ignored, in full. You would think it doesn’t exist.
2. The commands given to wives in Ephesians 5:22-24 are for some crazy reason presumed to be a “one way street” (in part because Ephesians 5:21 is ignored.)
3. However, consider Ephesians 5:25 wherein husbands are commanded to love their wives. Take note: by the logic of the misogynistic interpretations, this would mean wives are not under an obligation to love their husbands. But no one believes that, now do they?

How coincidental is it for men that the men who interpret these passages determined that men have fewer obligations towards their spouse than women do. A man must only love his wife, while a woman must love her husband and submit to him.

Yet they tell us that these interpretations are not sexist. LOL!

A very fine line and one that, I fear, has been crossed with talk of women being bound to the home, in full obedience to their husband and so on.

We are all subject to some kind of bias, of course, but I do not think that I am saying this to promote any radical feminist agenda. As you can see by a thread I started here, I am quite concerned that we acknowledge the dignity and equality in Christ of both male and female, husband and wife.

Well said, you have made good, valid points.

 

[Nimzovik]

Fascinating! So to restate for purposes of communication enhancement - **you **agree
that the statement -

“How coincidental is it for men that the men who interpret these passages determined that men have fewer obligations towards their spouse than women do. A man must only love his wife, while a woman must love her husband and submit to him.”

is *accurate? *

Well! That is certainly… revealing! Whoa! I must say! A rather **prejudiced perspective you have of men there - eh wot?

 

[Nimzovik]

Methinks that is not what a St. Joseph would think. You do know St. Joseph right? The St. that we men are to model in terms of the Catholic faith?

Yes?

 

[austenbosten]

Great this is turning into an anti women thread already. You can’t even bring up women without the whole thread going south.

I honestly wish that a rule could be made around here that strongly discourages that kind of language. The amount of posts written blaming women, telling women what their place is in society, and what they should and should not do makes Catholics look really bad.

You gonna have the same rule for posts that are anti-men?

I honestly haven’t seen this thread go south, maybe you are just overly sensitive.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

…Apparently this is a new thing now.

What’s the deal??

From what I have observed its pretty normal for CAF:shrug:
You have to remember that Catholic Answers is a relatively conservative (Catholic) forum, and that there is a significant number of hardcore conservatives here that take the idea that women were created to be men’s helpers/assistants very seriously.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

You forgot the last name change thread.

Or, my favorite, the one in popular media about how the pixar movie Brave is part of the “radical feminist agenda” because teaches girls that they can reject tradition and “be their immature little selves”. Yeah, that thread was horrifying.

The anti woman thing around here lately has really started to freak me out. I really didn’t know that there were still so many people who believe that women should be at home and out of society, and that women who aren’t mothers are rejecting the only thing that will make them truly happy.

Valuable traditions like arranged marriages

 

[severus68]

I must I say, am always fascinated when a Catholic refers to themselves as a Feminist.
There are non atheist based pro woman groups that **far **more represent the Christian context rather than the those termed as ‘Feminist’ by todays’ standards, I should think.

It is hard for me to* not* associate* A*bortion and Planned Parenthood with the likes of today’s such ‘Feminist’ Icons as Margaret Sanger, Sebellius and Pelosi. And yes I say ‘Feminism’ as defined by Modern Day Feminists, is, fundamentally entwined with Atheism just as it is fundamentally entwined with Planned Parenthood. I personally equate Atheism with Planned Parenthood. How can one not? It is certainly not a Christian ideal, now is it?

I do realize that perhaps many may take umbrage with what I just said. Many will say such things like " I just admire the ‘equal pay for equal work’ aspects of feminism, that is why I call myself a Feminist.

Interesting it is, how Feminism can be such an amorphous entity isn’t it? A flex elect philosophical system that adapts itself to any crowd with whom one may be speaking.

I should think that a Catholic would rather want to say " I am a member of the "Holy Family"model of feminity that advocates for the sanctity and grace and equality of women as per the teachings of Christ. Or at least some similar descriptor. A descriptor that, renders glory to Our Lord, as opposed to …Gloria Stienem.

And of course there is the term Feminism itself, as I have posted elsewhere, that by it’s very definition is exclusionary in regard to it’s very title. At no juncture in the term Feminsim, do I see the male being advocated for as well. Ergo methinks that Feminism as defined today, is just another self interest serving lobbying group that says me, me me. If not so, then why not, instead of Feminist, be called We-ist or Us - ist?

Why would any Catholic wish to be even remotely connected to such a, well, shall we say dubious, at best, organization****

I do understand however, why Atheists call themselves Feminists.

Feminism is not an organisation. I would look at any definiton in a good dictionary. It is not about pushing down men, it is also about taking away the so called rights that some men think they have to deny women choice, to be more entitled, to have women subordinate to them. There are many men who consider themselves feminists too.

There are some women who have gone so much the other way in hating all men etc. While I may not subscribe to all their views and positions, I do at times, understand where they are coming from.

 

[TrueLight]

Choosing to submit to your husband does not make you anti-woman nor does it imply that you are subject to all men or that you can’t have a career etc etc.

We have to be really careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Pope Pius XII in Casti Connubii

Even if some women manage to escape these consequences, women as a group become less respected. In Casti Connubii, Pius XI wrote: “False liberty and unnatural equality [in authority] with the husband is to the detriment of the woman herself, for if the woman descends from her truly regal throne to which she has been raised within the walls of the home by means of the gospel, she will soon be reduced to the old state of slavery (if not in appearance, certainly in reality) and become as among the pagans the mere instrument of man.” Riding the wake of filth, violence, debasement, and rank misogyny of modern times, few objective persons would suggest the today’s women enjoy greater respect than their grandmothers did.

Michelle Arnold from Ask an Apologist
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=12055

As to the more general question about how a wife should submit to her husband:

Wives are not called to submit to husbands merely for the sake of submission to an authoritarian. They are called to submit to their husbands as they would to Christ because the husband in the marital relationship signifies Christ. Likewise, husbands are called to serve their wives, not for the sake of mere servility, but as Christ served the Church. The wife in the marital relationship signifies the Church. Just as wives are called to submit to husbands even when they’d rather not, so husbands sacrifice for their wives even when they’d rather not because that is what Christ did out of obedience to the Father for the sake of his bride, the Church (cf. Luke 22:41-42). This sometimes may mean that the husband may have to sacrifice his will in a particular matter when he realizes that what his wife proposes is the greater good. Likewise, a wife submits her will to her husband’s when he calls her to a greater good.

 

[severus68]

Submission of a wife to her husband is anti-Catholic?

It is not Catholic doctrine. It is Catholic to submit to God and for husbands and wives to submit to each other.

 

[dedo]

Joel Osteen discussed this issue in his opening story last week.

The story went something like this:

St. Peter asked the men in the afterlife to form two lines. One line was for men that were the head of their household. The other line was for men who came from families where the woman was the head of the household.

The “woman was the head” line of men went on as far as the eye could see.

The “man was the head” line had only one man in it.

St. Peter asked the man to explain to the other men how he ran his house.

The man said: “I don’t know. My wife told me to stand here.”

 

[TrueLight]

It is not Catholic doctrine. It is Catholic to submit to God and for husbands and wives to submit to each other.

Husbands and wives are indeed to submit to one another.

But can you show me where it says it is not Catholic doctrine for a wife to submit to her husband?

By the way in response to what someone posted before, a husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the Church. To me, that is an obvious huge responsibility.