What's wrong with Dawkins?

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Well, that’s awfully convenient! In fact, that theory could almost have been invented purely to reconcile a belief in God with the reality of the universe!

You made yourself clear, and the only flaw in your reasoning is an irrational belief in God. Illogical because there’s no evidence for his existence.

And, incidentally, you seem to have classed events that God always knew would happen - would be pre-ordained, in effect - as ‘free will’. If God created you, and knew what you would think, and altered the Universe to accommodate you, then how can this be called ‘free will’? Haven’t you just argued against your own hypothesis?
No it’s not irrational, as you say. Either there is no realm outside the physical laws that govern all matter and energy and you do not have reason/free will; or, you assume that there is free will and God is a necessity. So either you are a deterministic or statistical robot (or a mix of the two) and your reason actually does not exist, in which case this discussion is predetermined or randomly determined, and therefore pointless; or you are a being with reason and free will (both go together) and God is a necessity. This is essentially the reason why I think atheism is self-denying. In light of this, Pascal’s argument of the wager seems much nicer than it initially appeared to be.
 
I feel I need to comment on the idea that science gives us anything more than a hypothesis, while philosophy cannot prove anything because it does not have physical facts to observe.

This betrays a woeful ignorance of how science works and what it claims to do. In fact, it’s simply backwards.

Science, because it relys on observations of physical phenomena, can never prove anything, and can only make hypothesis or theories. That is not really to say anything against science, all scientists (perhaps not Dawkins, given the way he speaks) know this. There are very good reasons to accept strong scientific theories. But they cannot be proved.

It is possible, however, to prove immaterial things. We can prove things sometimes in logic or mathematics, for example. When we talk about more complex issues, it becomes more difficult - it is hard to really get at them through pure provable logical statements. But theoretically it is possible, unlike science.

What seems to be missed, is that whatever validity scientific theories have comes from the ability to prove immaterial things. That is, if immaterial logic and reasoning are simply invalid, it also invalidates science. A scientific theory is NOT just a collection of observations - that would be a list of numbers that would reveal nothing. The theory, which tells us something useful, which draws information and relates those numbers, is immaterial. Science is essentially a form of philosophy which deals with observable phenomena.

So saying that science is provable while it is impossible to argue about something we can’t see is ignorant. It might be best to do a bit of reading about the scientific method.
This is a brilliant post and I entirely agree with it.
 
Mr. Dawkins has simply rejected the Bible as the Word of God. On the off chance that God exists, he mentions that He would be something beyond our comprehension.

We are all, in the end, servants, including scientists. It is illogical to believe that a human embryo is not a unique human being.

Peace,
Ed
Okay, so you don’t like him because he doesn’t think the same way as you??
 
Excellent point. Atheism implies absence of free will.
No - a theist might infer this, but only because they are unable to comprehend that free will hasn’t come from God. It’s important to make the distinction between what Atheism states - that there isn’t a God - and what theists infer from that.

If atheism were to state anything at all about free will, it would state solely that free will isn’t a gift from God.
 
I think the free will issue is essentially what divides atheists and theists. But your assertion that the human race was granted an exclusion clause is obviously misleading. Any rational being (other non-human species in the Universe, for example) is granted that exclusion because reason and free will are mutually necessary. Reason is intimately related to free will. Reason is the tool you need to make free will operative. Reason implies making choices: a scientist decides that theory A is better than B because of this and that; therefore he decides to go for A if he is honest, but can go for B if it suits him better. An atheistic view denies free will (because all actions by this set of atoms we call a human being are either randomly or deterministically decided, or a mix of the two), and therefore denies reason.
It wasn’t misleading, it was examplary. If you like, I’ll retract and replace with, “… and life form exhibiting free will…”
My view is that you need some kind of incompleteness of the physical laws that make room for free will. This kind of incompleteness ensures that some “objects” cannot be completely described by physical laws.
Fine so far.
Those objects are the spiritual beings.
Wow, there’s a leap of logic. Why are they spiritual? Because we can’t observe them scientifically? Was gravity spiritual before Newton documented it?
So the spiritual realm and free will are necessary for each other, and of course this immediately makes the way for the existence of God.
You’re presenting conjecture as fact. There is no evidence of a spiritual realm. Hence no reason to postulate the existence of God. It’s just a convenient concept for something we don’t understand.
 
That is very good to see and certainly a major improvement over what rank-materialism (such as Dawkins’) would assert. This avoids the contradiction that I thought you were giving previously – and it avoids the fatal flaw as mentioned.
I thought Dawkins did believe in free will?
So, you’re on firm ground here - again, excellent.
Not sure I was ever really off it - my assumed position had no less credibility than the theist’s. It’s probably fairest to say that everyone stand on thin ice here, because nobody knows.
You might be correct that free-will does not necessarily prove that God created it, but I don’t think you should totally exclude that possiblitity in your investigations of the reasons and causes, etc.
I don’t totally exclude it - hence the ‘agnostic’ part of my profile - I just find it extremely, extremely unlikely. Mainly because it doesn’t explain anything. “God did it - now stop asking questions.” Maybe I’m just a cynic, but I don’t blindly believe anything for which no evidence has been presented. God falls into this category.
 
Although I am not a Catholic, I do know that the literal truth, or otherwise, of Genesis is one of the few things where the Vatican does not lay down the law. But upon the whole, most Catholics like most Protestants (at least on this side of the Atlantic) do not believe that the opening chapters of Genesis are literally true.
That’s a far more constructive answer, thank you. However, I’m intrigued by your implication that the pope tells you what to believe. Doesn’t that reduce catholic faith to herd mentality?
 
Even if we are not alone, chances are we will never get acquainted with aliens. Quoting from the wikipedia:

“In 1950, while working at Los Alamos National Laboratory, the physicist Enrico Fermi had a casual conversation while walking to lunch with colleagues Emil Konopinski, Edward Teller and Herbert York. The men lightly discussed a recent spate of UFO reports and an Alan Dunn cartoon[9] facetiously blaming the disappearance of municipal trashcans on marauding aliens. They then had a more serious discussion regarding the chances of humans observing faster-than-light travel of some material object within the next ten years, which Teller put at one in a million, but Fermi put closer to one in ten. The conversation shifted to other subjects, until during lunch Fermi suddenly exclaimed, “Where are they?” (alternatively, “Where is everybody?”)[10] One participant recollects that Fermi then made a series of rapid calculations using estimated figures (Fermi was known for his ability to make good estimates from first principles and minimal data, see Fermi problem.) According to this account, he then concluded that Earth should have been visited long ago and many times over.”

This is the Fermi paradox, a powerful argument against the existence of aliens.
Easily countered by the following:
  1. Given that the birth of the universe only happened once, there’s no reason to suspect that alien races are sufficiently more advanced than ourselves. We haven’t visited any planets; why should they?
  2. It’s reasonable to suspect that life is statistically rare throughout the universe (for reasons that I won’t bother with now, but you can look them up). Therefore, on the assumption that the nearest life-supporting system may be hundreds of light years away, then journey time would be so long that (a) they may simply not have reached us yet, and (b) how would they stay alive long enough to make the final course corrections necessary to bring them into contact?
  3. We don’t know that they haven’t (although I grant you, evidence is pretty thin on the ground once you discount all the ‘little green men’ accounts).
 
It is not a question of randomness but of probability. There are a vast number of possible beliefs and an even greater number of facts. It is extremely unlikely that a particular belief corresponds to a particular fact if it is predetermined by blind processes.
But the processes aren’t blind. They are influenced by observation. Analogise it with Natural Selection if you like. There are indeed a number of beliefs, and there is the mechanism to normalise those beliefs based on what we learn by observation. The fact that we may have always been destined to observe phenomen X is not a reason to suspect that phenomen X may not be real.
It does not follow from the fact that we know things that our brains are capable of knowledge, insight and understanding.
Maybe not, but it’s the most logical conclusion given what we know.
It does not follow from the fact that free will has always existed that all creatures have free will.
Nor did I suggest this. At least not intentionally. But for free will to always have existed, there needs to have been creatures to exercise it. If I understand a previous post on this correctly, that necessitates the existence of humans (ie. Homo Sapiens - nobody has stated whether, for example, Homo neanderthalensis might also have qualified).
If you are materialist you believe the Ultimate Reality is matter. If you believe in free will you believe matter is not the Ultimate Reality because there is no evidence that matter has free will. Free will by itself cannot be the Ultimate Reality because free will implies the existence of a rational being. It is more coherent to believe the Ultimate Reality is a Rational Being with free will.
Okay, so your “Ultimate Reality” is equivalent to “people?”
 
No it’s not irrational, as you say. Either there is no realm outside the physical laws that govern all matter and energy and you do not have reason/free will; or, you assume that there is free will and God is a necessity.
No, no, no! Free will does not necessitate God! Unless you are content to use the word “god” as a metaphor for, “something we don’t [yet] understand.”
So either you are a deterministic or statistical robot (or a mix of the two) and your reason actually does not exist, in which case this discussion is predetermined or randomly determined, and therefore pointless; or you are a being with reason and free will (both go together) and God is a necessity.
Utter baloney as shown above.
This is essentially the reason why I think atheism is self-denying. In light of this, Pascal’s argument of the wager seems much nicer than it initially appeared to be.
Pascal’s wager was presumably meant tongue-in-cheek; as Dawkins himself has pointed out, a God who is more interested in a public show of belief than whether that belief is actually real, is a God that should cause theists real concern.
 
No, no, no! Free will does not necessitate God! Unless you are content to use the word “god” as a metaphor for, “something we don’t [yet] understand.”
You’re quite right. But free will does necessitate a metaphysical reality, something many scientific reductionists will not admit.
 
Why are they spiritual? Because we can’t observe them scientifically? Was gravity spiritual before Newton documented it?
As I’m sure you know, there is a big difference between can’t being physically unable to and can’t as in we don’t have yet have the ability.

Einstein’s theories did not have some of the empirical support needed before he died. Physicists were able to finally make the observations that supported his theory some time after his death. This does not mean that his theory was spiritual anymore than gravity was spiritual!

We cannot (are physically unable to) observe and measure the mind, the soul and/or God. We never will be able to because those things are not material and cannot be physically measured - unlike gravity.

That is why Gould argued for the existence of NOMA - non-overlapping magisteria. Science has little or nothing useful to say about morality and theology and Theology has little or nothing useful to say about the material world.

If I have a fever, I see a medical doctor; if I have questions about God I consult a theologian. Dawkins simply has not the education or expertise to comment intelligently on the existence of God and/or the value of religion. He’s a biologist. If I want to know more about evolution I might read Dawkins; if I want to know about God I’ll read McCabe or Ward or Aquinas…I wouldn’t trust them to tell me much useful about cell biology however!

NOMA saves a lot of arguments 😉
 
Pascal’s wager was presumably meant tongue-in-cheek; as Dawkins himself has pointed out, a God who is more interested in a public show of belief than whether that belief is actually real, is a God that should cause theists real concern.
The original meaning of the word ‘belief’ was commitment to, loyalty to, or trust in. The word only changed its meaning to our modern understanding in the late 17th Century, after Pascal’s death. Therefore, as a 17th century philosopher, this is the way that Pascal would have understood that term. Therefore Pascal’s wager means that having accepted it the person is then committed to and trusts that God exists on the basis of the consequences of being wrong and probability - it has little to do with public behaviour. If Dawkins had done his research he would have known that…
 
The original meaning of the word ‘belief’ was commitment to, loyalty to, or trust in. The word only changed its meaning to our modern understanding in the late 17th Century, after Pascal’s death. Therefore, as a 17th century philosopher, this is the way that Pascal would have understood that term. Therefore Pascal’s wager means that having accepted it the person is then committed to and trusts that God exists on the basis of probability - it has little to do with public behaviour. If Dawkins had done his research he would have known that…
Yes, but Pascal’s wager does seem to assume that a person can decide to believe something, and then actually believe it. Ordinary human psychology seems to go against this.
 
Yes, but Pascal’s wager does seem to assume that a person can decide to believe something, and then actually believe it. Ordinary human psychology seems to go against this.
Actually, the available evidence demonstrates that people’s attitudes and beliefs follow behaviour - not the other way around. This is another example of how ‘commonsense’ is contradicted by empirical evidence.

This may mean that if a person decided to go to Mass, to pray, to read the Bible and to behave ‘as if’ they believe in God then they may well start to believe in Him. Clearly, there are other factors, for example, having a self identity as an atheist and spending time arguing against the existence of God may mean that the change in belief would not happen. Its hard to imagine that particular group being open minded enough to change!
The vast majority of people are not in that grouping however and it is perhaps to those that Pascal was speaking. Atheism as a self identity and in terms of an aggressive arguing against God’s existence is a modern phenomenon and it was very rare during Pascal’s lifetime.
 
Actually, the available evidence demonstrates that people’s attitudes and beliefs follow behaviour - not the other way around. This is another example of how ‘commonsense’ is contradicted by empirical evidence.
Good point. But if there are particular reasons that make it convenient for a person to doubt – that they might keep sinning with impunity, for example – they might assent to Pascal’s wager, and yet the intellectual assent would not even allow them to act like they believed.
 
In which case they haven’t assented to the wager - it depends on intellectual assent doesn’t it? I think that is why it is set out logically and uses probability and consequence - to appeal to the intellect.
 
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