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djrakowski
Guest
netmil(name removed by moderator), that’s awesome, but not at all surprising. We’re doing something right with the young men and boys of our parish. Thanks for sharing!
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Elzee
Guest
Can you come and instruct some of our altar boys (and girls). On a typical Sunday I witness one or more of the following:
- torn jeans dragging the floor
- flip-flops
- dirty, torn tennis shoes
- shuffling across the sanctuary, dragging their feet like they just woke up 2 minutes ago
- uncombed, bed-head hair - like they just woke up 2 minutes ago
- genuflecting on the left knee (not often, but occasionally)
- twirling their ropes
- eyelids half closed looking bored to death - like they just woke up 2 minutes ago
- hands hanging down at their side, or, on better days, clasped, but hanging straight down in front of them
- talking and giggling (not often, but often enough)
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djrakowski
Guest
The people of our parish are deeply committed to the faith, and they hear it faithfully preached from the pulpit every single day. Our homeschooling community is significantly larger than at any other church in which I’ve been involved, and the parents of these homeschoolers are solid Catholic who are determined to pass on the faith to their children (and quite a few altar servers are from homeschooling families). I don’t think a program-based approach to improving this situation would make much of a difference without these other elements in place.
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Brendan
Guest
I saw that incident too. I was pretty impressed. My son (who was one of the servers, wanted to give the little boy his swing torch to carry, but was on the other side of the altar.
My son also informed me that the pastor and the deacon both assured the boy that this happens from time to time and that he was not in trouble in anyway.
BTW, you are correct, the young girls choir was excellent. I heard them practicing after Mass. Their rendition of “Dona Nobis Pacem” was priceless
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netmilsmom
Guest
The amount of children on Ritalin in this country is at record numbers.
archives.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/parenting/08/29/ritalin.schools/
You have used one example of one child.
Are you a Psychiatrist?
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netmilsmom
Guest
Maybe they could have a field trip to our parish. You could bring them. DJRakowski, Brendan and I will welcome you with open arms!
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ChemicalBean
Guest
Thanks, jmcrae for seeing through this.
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Then, I suggested a meaning based upon your assertion that 1.) Boys are being “feminized”, and 2.) Boys are being “thrown on Ritalin”. I responded to the ritalin part, giving respect to the reality that children of both genders are prescribed Ritalin for behavioral disorders, and later on responding from recollection of a mother who denied that her son needed Ritalin and that his behavior was due to him just doing what boys do. If you read closely, I also responded to your assertion of feminization by suggesting adjectives that are traditionally not feminine. Feminine counter-adjectives to these might include disciplined, obedient, docile, and passive, which is what I have reasonably inferred that you meant by feminization of boys.
For one last time, I DO NOT think that boys in general are “inattentive, smart-aleck, unfocused, disruptive, and aggressive”, and I don’t necessarily believe that you think that either. I was simply challenging you to justify your opinion that “Boys are feminized and thrown on Ritalin when they behave like boys.” Please do this or drop the subject altogether. This thread is about “what’s wrong with female altar girls.”
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Uhh…no. Please stop spinning my words and reposting, because you’re getting it wrong and making me look bigoted. I responded to both the feminist part and the ritalin part. As explained above, I first asked “What does it mean to behave like boys?” You personally have never answered this.ChemicalBean:
Only boys act like this when they are off their meds, that is what you suggest. (and you missed the feminized part)
Then, I suggested a meaning based upon your assertion that 1.) Boys are being “feminized”, and 2.) Boys are being “thrown on Ritalin”. I responded to the ritalin part, giving respect to the reality that children of both genders are prescribed Ritalin for behavioral disorders, and later on responding from recollection of a mother who denied that her son needed Ritalin and that his behavior was due to him just doing what boys do. If you read closely, I also responded to your assertion of feminization by suggesting adjectives that are traditionally not feminine. Feminine counter-adjectives to these might include disciplined, obedient, docile, and passive, which is what I have reasonably inferred that you meant by feminization of boys.
For one last time, I DO NOT think that boys in general are “inattentive, smart-aleck, unfocused, disruptive, and aggressive”, and I don’t necessarily believe that you think that either. I was simply challenging you to justify your opinion that “Boys are feminized and thrown on Ritalin when they behave like boys.” Please do this or drop the subject altogether. This thread is about “what’s wrong with female altar girls.”
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Brendan
Guest
CB,
I still haven’t seen your response to my post on page 4 ( regarding the fact that the Pope himself does not use altar girls)
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1707701&postcount=194
If altar girls are a good ideal, why doesn’t the Pope himself use them. Should he be setting a better example for the bishops and priests on this matter?
Or would it be better for a priest to model himself on the Holy Father?
Can you give any reasons why a priest should not use the Holy Father himself as a example for all liturgical practices.
And if not, what specific liturgical practices should a priest NOT follow the Pope’s lead.
I still haven’t seen your response to my post on page 4 ( regarding the fact that the Pope himself does not use altar girls)
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1707701&postcount=194
If altar girls are a good ideal, why doesn’t the Pope himself use them. Should he be setting a better example for the bishops and priests on this matter?
Or would it be better for a priest to model himself on the Holy Father?
Can you give any reasons why a priest should not use the Holy Father himself as a example for all liturgical practices.
And if not, what specific liturgical practices should a priest NOT follow the Pope’s lead.
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djrakowski
Guest
I think netmil(name removed by moderator) made some excellent observations in retelling the incident involving the little boy at our parish. The older boys could’ve easily taken advantage of the situation to embarrass him, but instead, they assumed fatherly roles. I guarantee that’s what they’ve learned from their own fathers at home.
The boys of our parish are energetic, inquisitive and mischeivous, yet they know how to assume the duties they’ve been given, and do so with professionalism, reverence and grace. When their enery levels get the best of them, and they behave inappropriately (which I’ve never seen them do at Mass), nobody suggests that they belong on Ritalin. Instead, they’re given something to do - and at our parish, there are plenty of opportunities for them. And these opportunities surround them with other men who act as positive role models for them - a total win-win situation, if you ask me.
I’m very thankful that I’ve entered the Church through the ministry of this parish, as I have boys of my own who will most certainly be encouraged to follow the example of the young men who serve at our altar.
The boys of our parish are energetic, inquisitive and mischeivous, yet they know how to assume the duties they’ve been given, and do so with professionalism, reverence and grace. When their enery levels get the best of them, and they behave inappropriately (which I’ve never seen them do at Mass), nobody suggests that they belong on Ritalin. Instead, they’re given something to do - and at our parish, there are plenty of opportunities for them. And these opportunities surround them with other men who act as positive role models for them - a total win-win situation, if you ask me.
I’m very thankful that I’ve entered the Church through the ministry of this parish, as I have boys of my own who will most certainly be encouraged to follow the example of the young men who serve at our altar.
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Elzee
Guest
Our family is going to make it to your parish one day!
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ChemicalBean
Guest
Wow, I’d agree that your ranks of servers need some discipline. Who trains them? Perhaps you’d like to relay your concerns to the liturgy coordinator/committee and pastor, and maybe even offer to learn how your parish uses servers and then (re-)train the others.
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netmilsmom
Guest
I thought Mary handled it quite well but here you go. These atttibutes are not exclusive to boys but much more rare in girls
Boys are more activity and spatially oriented, they do, they explore, they take apart and put together.
They are competition oriented. They work to do the best job and care less about people’s feelings while doing it. (if you don’t think this is an attribute, you’ve never worked for a woman)
They are happy when others are sad and can easily take things very lightly to “get on with” whatever needs to be done.
They are much less emotional than their female peers, look less for community and therefore do not look for the “common good”, but rather the “best result”.
They act like leaders and take the ball when it’s needed.
Most of these behaviors are disruptive in a classroom setting. Many fellow homeschoolers have pulled their boys who “needed Ritalin” only to find that a Kinesthetic/tactile learning envirorment let the boys shine, at home. Sitting and quietly listening is against the nature of most boys. Doing works.
As for the rest of your posts. I’ll let your words stand for themselves.
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ChemicalBean
Guest
Hey Brendan, here’s splicing your questions together.
Do you think that the Pope doesn’t care about the spiritual welfare of the girls in Rome? No. I never implied this.
Perhaps he is not concerned with fostering vocations to the convents of Rome? No. Again, I never implied this. See post #140 for my opinions on vocations.
Is the Pope setting a bad example? Should he be setting a better example for the bishops and priests on this matter? Not necessarily.
Or would it be better for a priest to model himself on the Holy Father? On things spiritual and moral, yes it’s good. On other things proper to a non-roman culture, such as liturgical and catechetical particularies (music, art, philosophy of education, etc.) it is better for a priest to model himself on his local bishop.
What would it somehow be a bad idea for ALL priests to follow the lead of the Pope in this matter? Possibly. I think we’ve established why.
Can you give any reasons why a priest should not use the Holy Father himself as a example for all liturgical practices. I just alluded to examples of liturgical practices that may not be, and shouldn’t necessarily be identical to Rome because of inculturation. But if even that is not acceptible to you, I remind you that there are many Catholics in communion with the Holy Father who do not follow the Latin Rite. It would be improper for them to use a Latin Rite model for all liturgical practices.
And if not, what specific liturgical practices should a priest NOT follow the Pope’s lead. This thread is about female altar servers. Let’s not get ourselves in too deep. I haven’t pulled my hip-boots out of storage yet.
If altar girls are a good ideal, why doesn’t the Pope himself use them. Perhaps it’s not part of the liturgical culture in Rome like it is in the US. Or maybe it’s because there are a plethora of priests and deacons around Rome to do his bidding.
Do you think that the Pope doesn’t care about the spiritual welfare of the girls in Rome? No. I never implied this.
Perhaps he is not concerned with fostering vocations to the convents of Rome? No. Again, I never implied this. See post #140 for my opinions on vocations.
Is the Pope setting a bad example? Should he be setting a better example for the bishops and priests on this matter? Not necessarily.
Or would it be better for a priest to model himself on the Holy Father? On things spiritual and moral, yes it’s good. On other things proper to a non-roman culture, such as liturgical and catechetical particularies (music, art, philosophy of education, etc.) it is better for a priest to model himself on his local bishop.
What would it somehow be a bad idea for ALL priests to follow the lead of the Pope in this matter? Possibly. I think we’ve established why.
Can you give any reasons why a priest should not use the Holy Father himself as a example for all liturgical practices. I just alluded to examples of liturgical practices that may not be, and shouldn’t necessarily be identical to Rome because of inculturation. But if even that is not acceptible to you, I remind you that there are many Catholics in communion with the Holy Father who do not follow the Latin Rite. It would be improper for them to use a Latin Rite model for all liturgical practices.
And if not, what specific liturgical practices should a priest NOT follow the Pope’s lead. This thread is about female altar servers. Let’s not get ourselves in too deep. I haven’t pulled my hip-boots out of storage yet.
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Brendan
Guest
CB,
What would the number of priests or deacons have to do with the role of altarboy?
A deacon is not some sort of glorified altarboy, he serves in a very different ministry.
This is why the Vatican maintains a cadre of altar boys in the first place.
And they serve all nationalities, not just ‘Roman’. If your parish had a pilgrimage to St. Peter’s and your pastor desired to say Mass in one of the chaples, the Vatican would provide you with English speaking altar boys to assist at Mass.
And what is this ‘non-Roman’ culture you are talking about. We are Roman Catholic, not only under the Holy See as Universal Pontif, but also as Patriarch of the Latin Church. In that sense, we have universal customs and practices.
Yes, I know their are Byzantine Catholics, Caldeans, Maronite Catholics etc… I have been to their Divine Liturgies. As yes, they too look to their patriarch as a model of Liturgy.
I don’t hear about Byzantine Catholics complaining that a particular practice is just for the ‘Kiev Culture’ or a Caldean saying that something is for Bagdan only, so why should a Roman Catholic say that something is just the “Roman Culture”
What would the number of priests or deacons have to do with the role of altarboy?
A deacon is not some sort of glorified altarboy, he serves in a very different ministry.
This is why the Vatican maintains a cadre of altar boys in the first place.
And they serve all nationalities, not just ‘Roman’. If your parish had a pilgrimage to St. Peter’s and your pastor desired to say Mass in one of the chaples, the Vatican would provide you with English speaking altar boys to assist at Mass.
And what is this ‘non-Roman’ culture you are talking about. We are Roman Catholic, not only under the Holy See as Universal Pontif, but also as Patriarch of the Latin Church. In that sense, we have universal customs and practices.
Yes, I know their are Byzantine Catholics, Caldeans, Maronite Catholics etc… I have been to their Divine Liturgies. As yes, they too look to their patriarch as a model of Liturgy.
I don’t hear about Byzantine Catholics complaining that a particular practice is just for the ‘Kiev Culture’ or a Caldean saying that something is for Bagdan only, so why should a Roman Catholic say that something is just the “Roman Culture”
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netmilsmom
Guest
I think you have too much knowledge for some people here.
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ComradeAndrei
Guest
It is part of the “liturgical culture” of the United States? Really…Not for the past roughly 200 yrs. it wasn’t. Its an innovation with no root in tradition or legitimate custom, plain and simple.
“Inculturation” doesn’t cut it. We have no legitimate cultural differences from Rome (we are, after all, mainly European) that would justify such innovations. We are past “inculturation”, our Catholic American culture (as far as it is in sync with Catholicism) is very much already “Roman”.
The ancient and venerable liturgies of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil according to the usages in the Byzantine, Maronite, Melkite, and all the other Eastern Particular Churches in union with the Holy See are a whole different ball game than pathetic innovations introduced at the prodding of feminist/modernist sympathizers. It is an insult to our Eastern brethren to compare their wholly legitimate and timelessly venerable Apostolic liturgies to “spirit of VII” innovations.
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proud2bcatholic
Guest
I just want to give props to those defending the awesome traditions of the Church.
I have to say that I need to get to Detroit so that I can visit Assumption Grotto and SS C&M, if only parishes across the country were similar.
I have to say that I need to get to Detroit so that I can visit Assumption Grotto and SS C&M, if only parishes across the country were similar.
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netmilsmom
Guest
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prv
Guest
LOL! You mean just plain impossible?Male Altar girls would be just plain silly.
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