What's Your Authority?

[rinnie]

I can’t help but think you’re still referring to the Church definitively as the CC. One has to abandon that definition to understand the Protestant viewpoint. The Church is not a building or denomination that one belongs to; it is simply the body of believers that span the ages.

Okay let me ask you this, Which Church is led and promised the power of the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truths?

 

[rinnie]

I can’t help but think you’re still referring to the Church definitively as the CC. One has to abandon that definition to understand the Protestant viewpoint. The Church is not a building or denomination that one belongs to; it is simply the body of believers that span the ages.

Okay but who leads them?

 

[yateanieys]

The CC made the decision on which books of the bible were Inspired. True or False.

True.

Now if they have no Authority how did they do this?

Just because one says “These books are canonical because God gave us the power to do so” doesn’t necessarily mean they have the authority to make that claim. They technically do have “authority,” or else they wouldn’t have been able to make that decision; I simply don’t think it’s God’s Authority. The Protestant faith that broke off from the CC did so because they were convinced that the so-called “authority” of the CC was self-proclaimed and not from God. The CC can say they have authority all they want, but there is no solid biblical evidence that corroborates any of it—only what the CC says the Bible says. The Protestant faith claims no authority; it looks to Scripture for inspiration and teachings and considers Jesus Christ (who is still very much alive and well) the only Authority of his Body, the Church, as everything was placed beneath his feet.

Now let me ask you a couple questions

1. 
   *]If the CC did have God’s Authority, then why did it take the Magisterium 1500 years to finally establish a biblical canon—one that went against the original canon proposed by St. Athanasius that was widely supported by the RCC and it’s clergy of the Early Church?
   —
   *]My guess is that there were equally authoritative entities duly working in another direction. If you agree with this, then who is to say that those who moved against the established canon of the Council of Trent didn’t have the Authority of God? (don’t say “the CC” lol)
   
   I do not deny the supposed Authority of the CC, I only question it. Of course, that seems to be a huge problem here as the CC says that those who question them are heretics. Think about this: the Protestant Reformation began just decades before the CC declared it’s canonical Scripture. Perhaps God was taking His Authority elsewhere before the CC decreed a counterfactual canon. It could happen right?
   
   So, question #3…
   —
   *]Do you deny with 100% certainty the possibility that God’s Authority, even if it was originally with the CC, eventually abandoned it to protest against the political nature of the Church and its teachings that God saw were invented and not supported by Scripture (such as indulgences and papal supremacy)? If so, then why?

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

The RCC is definitely included in the Church, but so are all the other non-Catholics that accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

The CC teaches this. All baptized Christians are members of the body of Christ, that is His Church. Tho, some may be in an imperfect union with His Church they are still part of it.

 

[Peebo]

I’m sorry…but as a former Pentecostal why anyone…especially Catholics who are part of a 2000 year old church founded by Jesus Christ…why would you bother arguing with a man made 200 years old church that divides itself every time some one doesn’t agree with a particular interpretation…I once met a person who belonged to a particular Pentecostal church who asked me if I had been baptized in the Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in tongues…the reason he asked was that his church didn’t believe you were saved unless you had that particular gift…and therefore they didn’t associate with those who were not “saved”…the Pentecostal church I belonged to also had certain scriptural interpretations different from the Assembles of God…and so it went on…until they recognize the authority given to Peter by Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit will continue to blind them from the truth…just pray for them

 

[yateanieys]

Okay but who leads them?

Fishermen fish for men while the shepherds watch the herd. Again, I’m not denying that those in the Catholic clergy are not shepherds because they are, and the majority of what they teach is right on, but there are some things that strictly aren’t biblically solid; hence, it’s gonna raise questions in the minds of those that the Magisterium hasn’t yet convinced of its purported infallibility.

 

[rinnie]

l. The bible was not written until later for many reasons.

l. We had and have the Church we truly don’t need it, For us the Church is the Pilar of all Truth, although we can and should read the bible we don’t need it.

1. No one could read back then, and even if they could there was no money to print the bible, who could afford it and why?
2. It wasn’t until years later the bible was demanded.
3. I am confused here. The Cannon of Scripture was closed in the 16 century. Wasn’t the first Protestant Church after that?

Forget what 3 is I gotta go back and read the question!

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

I know these questions were not posed to me, but I’d like to take a jab at em.

If the CC did have God’s Authority, then why did it take the Magisterium 1500 years to finally establish a biblical canon—one that went against the original canon proposed by St. Athanasius that was widely supported by the RCC and it’s clergy of the Early Church?]

Why did it take the Church 300+ years to define the trinity? Why did it take the Church any amount of time to define that baptism replaced circumcision (cf. Acts 15)? Does a certain span of time negate authority? And what makes St. Athanasius the sole authority for you on the subject? Where in scripture does it say St. Athanasius has the sole authority to determine the canon? Why not another ECF whose list disagrees with yours? Is it only because his list agrees with yours?

My guess is that there were equally authoritative entities duly working in another direction. If you agree with this, then who is to say that those who moved against the established canon of the Council of Trent didn’t have the Authority of God? (don’t say “the CC” lol)

God. If you are correct and the protestant reformers were correct. Then the Church Jesus built would have failed. And, Jesus promised it wouldn’t. So, Jesus via His mystical body, the Church, says it. Additionally, I previously noted in another post that the Church decreed an authoritative canon of scripture many times prior to Trent. The reason for its defining was because of the doctrinal chaos & disagreements now within Christendom secondary to the protestant reformation.

I do not deny the supposed Authority of the CC, I only question it. Of course, that seems to be a huge problem here as the CC says that those who question them are heretics. Think about this: the Protestant Reformation began just decades before the CC declared it’s canonical Scripture. Perhaps God was taking His Authority elsewhere before the CC decreed a counterfactual canon. It could happen right?

If the CC is what it claims to be, the Church founded by Christ & given the deposit of faith to hand on orally and written, then yes it has such authority to determine who is outside of the Church. If not, then its just full of hot air and no one need listen to it.

The protestant reformation did begin decades before Trent. However, consider the time period. No cars, no trains, no planes, no internet, no phone lines… Gathering info and people together during this time period is no over night process. It is reasonable, considering the era, that a council could take time to develop and respond.

Do you deny with 100% certainty the possibility that God’s Authority, even if it was originally with the CC, eventually abandoned it to protest against the political nature of the Church and its teachings that God saw were invented and not supported by Scripture (such as indulgences and papal supremacy)? If so, then why?

Yes, because Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church (Mt. 16:18) and He promised to be with His Church always, until the end of the age. (Mt 28:20). If what you suggest, that authority shifted away from His Church, is true, then Jesus is a liar or failed to keep His promise. I have no reason to doubt what Jesus says. He is God after all.

You say that teachings, such as indulgences & papal supremacy, are invented. By what authority do you declare this? Don’t say scripture, because many claim the sole authority of scripture yet disagree with you about essentials of your faith.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, I am 100% and then times that by the largest number you know, that the RCC teaches EXACTLY the same truth as in the time of Christ, the truth never changes and is led by the same Holy Spirit PROMISED to it by Christ at the time of Pentecost.

How can I be so sure. Jesus promised us the Advocate the Holy Spirit to lead the RCC until the end of age.

I believe Jesus keeps his promises.

 

[rinnie]

Fishermen fish for men while the shepherds watch the herd. Again, I’m not denying that those in the Catholic clergy are not shepherds because they are, and the majority of what they teach is right on, but there are some things that strictly aren’t biblically solid; hence, it’s gonna raise questions in the minds of those that the Magisterium hasn’t yet convinced of its purported infallibility.

But where did we ever claim that everything the RCC teaches is Biblical Solid. We don’t only go by the bible, the bible tells you not to go by the bible in tons of ways.

First of all it says you can read the bible, but you need the Church to interpret it because we don’t have the power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture.

Then it says follow the teaching of the early Father of the Church rather written or what was given by Word of MOUTH. We call that Sacred Tradition.

So you are saying if something was said and not written in the bible it did not come from God? Well lets start with the bible then, it tells you right off the bat, that’s untrue.

The Trinity is not in the bible, Guess what! Yep Sacred Tradition.

 

[yateanieys]

I’m sorry…but as a former Pentecostal why anyone…especially Catholics who are part of a 2000 year old church founded by Jesus Christ…why would you bother arguing with a man made 200 years old church that divides itself every time some one doesn’t agree with a particular interpretation…I once met a person who belonged to a particular Pentecostal church who asked me if I had been baptized in the Holy Spirit with the gift of speaking in tongues…the reason he asked was that his church didn’t believe you were saved unless you had that particular gift…and therefore they didn’t associate with those who were not “saved”…the Pentecostal church I belonged to also had certain scriptural interpretations different from the Assembles of God…and so it went on…until they recognize the authority given to Peter by Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit will continue to blind them from the truth…just pray for them

Just because the fragmentation of the Church happens doesn’t make them all wrong. In fact, I believe the absolute truth doesn’t lie with any denomination, but within the Word of God.

Simply put, people head the local Church, regardless of what “authority” they say they have, whether or not that “authority” is legitimate, whether or not that authority is misused for personal gain or otherwise, and whether or not any abuse of authority is covered up. Need I remind you of the slew of cases regarding what paedophilic bishops and priests have done under said “authority?” No, I’m not picking on the Catholics, because it happens every in every denomination of faith of every religion on Earth, but the point is, people are people and you can’t trust them. However, you CAN trust in the Lord God as both our Creator and seeker of our praise, worship, love, acceptance and fellowship.

If the Pope and Jesus were standing next to each other…(and you know exactly where I’m going with that)

 

[rinnie]

Just because the fragmentation of the Church happens doesn’t make them all wrong. In fact, I believe the absolute truth doesn’t lie with any denomination, but within the Word of God.

Simply put, people head the local Church, regardless of what “authority” they say they have, whether or not that “authority” is legitimate, whether or not that authority is misused for personal gain or otherwise, and whether or not any abuse of authority is covered up. Need I remind you of the slew of cases regarding what paedophilic bishops and priests have done under said “authority?” No, I’m not picking on the Catholics, because it happens every in every denomination of faith of every religion on Earth, but the point is, people are people and you can’t trust them. However, you CAN trust in the Lord God as both our Creator and seeker of our praise, worship, love, acceptance and fellowship.

If the Pope and Jesus were standing next to each other…(and you know exactly where I’m going with that)

Wow! Now hold on there!

Please show me where it was ever said that any MAN or Pope or Apostle for that part were not human nor had human sin. Do you think WE think the POPE is GOD? No No No.

We don’t believe the Pope leads the RCC we believe God does.

Answer me this, what does one abuse committed by any Priest in the RCC change the truth taught in the RCC? Just ONE, that’s all I am asking.:newidea:

Next some food for thought, How did Judas and his sins, change what Jesus taught. Same Thing don’t ya think!

 

[rinnie]

Just because the fragmentation of the Church happens doesn’t make them all wrong. In fact, I believe the absolute truth doesn’t lie with any denomination, but within the Word of God.

Simply put, people head the local Church, regardless of what “authority” they say they have, whether or not that “authority” is legitimate, whether or not that authority is misused for personal gain or otherwise, and whether or not any abuse of authority is covered up. Need I remind you of the slew of cases regarding what paedophilic bishops and priests have done under said “authority?” No, I’m not picking on the Catholics, because it happens every in every denomination of faith of every religion on Earth, but the point is, people are people and you can’t trust them. However, you CAN trust in the Lord God as both our Creator and seeker of our praise, worship, love, acceptance and fellowship.

If the Pope and Jesus were standing next to each other…(and you know exactly where I’m going with that)

Also it is not a local church that says hey we have authority over heaven and earth, we have to get this straightened out here.

It was Jesus who told Peter that he had the keys to the kingdom and had the authority here on earth that he was given.

So who gave the RCC its authority? Jesus, read it, its in the bible, truly it is.

 

[rinnie]

Just because the fragmentation of the Church happens doesn’t make them all wrong. In fact, I believe the absolute truth doesn’t lie with any denomination, but within the Word of God.

Simply put, people head the local Church, regardless of what “authority” they say they have, whether or not that “authority” is legitimate, whether or not that authority is misused for personal gain or otherwise, and whether or not any abuse of authority is covered up. Need I remind you of the slew of cases regarding what paedophilic bishops and priests have done under said “authority?” No, I’m not picking on the Catholics, because it happens every in every denomination of faith of every religion on Earth, but the point is, people are people and you can’t trust them. However, you CAN trust in the Lord God as both our Creator and seeker of our praise, worship, love, acceptance and fellowship.

If the Pope and Jesus were standing next to each other…(and you know exactly where I’m going with that)

l Cor. l:10 STRONLY disagrees with you, it says no divisions. (it is in the bible).

 

[yateanieys]

Is it only because his list agrees with yours?

Absolutely not. Don’t forget, I don’t agree with including the apocryphal books in the Bible; he did. The point I was illustrating is that if the Magisterium has the Authority of God, then why was it not that way from the beginning? why the fickle nature of the canon up until the 16th century? I would think that if Jesus established his perfect Catholic Church, then he would have pushed the Apostles to established a better system, you know, one that could make divinely-inspired decisions in a timely manner instead of poking around for 1200 years to finally establish which books belong in the Bible. That’s kind of important and 1200 years is a looooong time.

God. If you are correct and the protestant reformers were correct. Then the Church Jesus built would have failed. And, Jesus promised it wouldn’t.

He built the Church by bringing people their salvation. Those that believe in their salvation through his blood are immediately inducted into the Church. So long as there are believers, those believers are not overcome by the gates of Hell; therefore, his Church has not “failed.” The body of Christ can’t fail, period, and circular reasoning does not explain why.

If not, then its just full of hot air and no one need listen to it.

I completely agree

It is reasonable, considering the era, that a council could take time to develop and respond.

Time is of no consequence to that which created it.

Yes, because Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church (Mt. 16:18) and He promised to be with His Church always, until the end of the age.

And He still is. Jesus lives within me and I am part of the Church. So are you, so are all believers on this forum. Therefore I agree. He is with his Church and Hell has not prevailed! Hallelujah! :extrahappy:

Don’t say scripture, because many claim the sole authority of scripture yet disagree with you about essentials of your faith.

Hey, you say the Catholic Church and I say Scripture. You say ‘mustard plant’ and I say ‘mustard seed’

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

Need I remind you of the slew of cases regarding what paedophilic bishops and priests have done under said “authority?” No, I’m not picking on the Catholics, because it happens every in every denomination of faith of every religion on Earth, but the point is…

Your ad hominem argument is flawed and reveals a lack of actual, factual argument. But to address the issue you bring up. All groups religious or not have people who have done horrible things. What impresses me most is that people from outside the Church and from inside the Church have directly or indirectly done things to bring it down or cause it to fail; but after 2000 years the Church still stands, guided by the HS, as Jesus promised.

If the Pope and Jesus were standing next to each other…(and you know exactly where I’m going with that)

.

We, including you, I and the pope, would be on bended knee before the Lord.

 

[rinnie]

Absolutely not. Don’t forget, I don’t agree with including the apocryphal books in the Bible; he did. The point I was illustrating is that if the Magisterium has the Authority of God, then why was it not that way from the beginning? why the fickle nature of the canon up until the 16th century? I would think that if Jesus established his perfect Catholic Church, then he would have pushed the Apostles to established a better system, you know, one that could make divinely-inspired decisions in a timely manner instead of poking around for 1200 years to finally establish which books belong in the Bible. That’s kind of important and 1200 years is a looooong time.

He built the Church by bringing people their salvation. Those that believe in their salvation through his blood are immediately inducted into the Church. So long as there are believers, those believers are not overcome by the gates of Hell; therefore, his Church has not “failed.” The body of Christ can’t fail, period, and circular reasoning does not explain why.

I completely agree

Time is of no consequence to that which created it.

And He still is. Jesus lives within me and I am part of the Church. So are you, so are all believers on this forum. Therefore I agree. He is with his Church and Hell has not prevailed! Hallelujah! :extrahappy:

Hey, you say the Catholic Church and I say Scripture. You say ‘mustard plant’ and I say ‘mustard seed’

Huh You say Catholic Church and I say Scripture. What about oral Scripture which is mentioned in the bible? What do you make of that?

 

[yateanieys]

Your ad hominem argument is flawed and reveals a lack of actual, factual argument. But to address the issue you bring up. All groups religious or not have people who have done horrible things. What impresses me most is that people from outside the Church and from inside the Church have directly or indirectly done things to bring it down or cause it to fail; but after 2000 years the Church still stands, guided by the HS, as Jesus promised.

Ad hominem? Yes. Circumstantial and justified on the grounds of Paul’s Epistle to the Corinthians? Abso-friggin-lutely

We, including you, I and the pope, would be on bended knee before the Lord.

My knee is already bent, so that puts me two steps ahead of you and the Pope.

 

[Peebo]

Just because the fragmentation of the Church happens doesn’t make them all wrong. In fact, I believe the absolute truth doesn’t lie with any denomination, but within the Word of God.

Simply put, people head the local Church, regardless of what “authority” they say they have, whether or not that “authority” is legitimate, whether or not that authority is misused for personal gain or otherwise, and whether or not any abuse of authority is covered up. Need I remind you of the slew of cases regarding what paedophilic bishops and priests have done under said “authority?” No, I’m not picking on the Catholics, because it happens every in every denomination of faith of every religion on Earth, but the point is, people are people and you can’t trust them. However, you CAN trust in the Lord God as both our Creator and seeker of our praise, worship, love, acceptance and fellowship.

If the Pope and Jesus were standing next to each other…(and you know exactly where I’m going with that)

No…people do not head the church…the Pope who has “authority” from Jesus Christ to lead his (Jesus’ ) church…through the guidance of the Holy Spirit…that is where the Catholic Church and the Pope get their “authority”…from Jesus Christ and through the Guidance of the Holy Spirit…and no I don’t know where you are going with the Pope and Jesus thing because I can’t comprehend such a ridiculous question…no offense

 

[yateanieys]

No…people do not head the church…the Pope who has “authority” from Jesus Christ to lead his (Jesus’ ) church…through the guidance of the Holy Spirit…that is where the Catholic Church and the Pope get their “authority”…from Jesus Christ and through the Guidance of the Holy Spirit…and no I don’t know where you are going with the Pope and Jesus thing because I can’t comprehend such a ridiculous question…no offense

I said people head the local church; Jesus heads the Church. Again, the pope heads one group of people, my pastor heads another, and there are many more personheads. The pope is a person, he heads a single congregation (regardless of how big it is), but Jesus Christ heads the entire worldwide congregation of followers that believe in him, and that, my friend, is the actual Church. I know you say it’s not, but it is