What's Your Authority?

[Peebo]

James 5:16…confess your sins one to another and pray for each other that you might be healed…the prayers of a righteous person has great power

there are ample other verses that call us to pray for one another…why would the bible tell us to do just that if we don’t need to…so should we just ignore what scripture exhorts us to do…Jesus told Peter that whose ever sins he forgave would be forgiven…whose sins he retained would be retained…even if someone doesn’t believe that Jesus was just referring to Peter rather than all his disciples…so why would Jesus say that if you only needed to go to God for forgiveness…why not just ignore what Jesus said…or what scripture says because it doesn’t fit in with ones own selective interpretation of scripture

 

[yateanieys]

you may see the truth one day yourself if enough Catholics here pray for you…so wach out…

I’ll gladly accept all the prayers I’m afforded in life! However, I’d much rather you pray for my “continued salvation” so that it covers all the bases. You know, in the event that the CC isn’t as infallible as it claims the Bible claims it is. Personally, I think we’re all safe so long as we follow the TCs, accept that Jesus died for our sins so we don’t have to and repent of whatever sins we’re burdened with, but I will pray for the salvation of you and yours as well!

 

[yateanieys]

So you think that Scripture is the mustard seed and the Catholic Church is the mustard plant?

Talk about putting the cart before the horse! The Catholic Church has been in existence since the first Pentecost Sunday – long before a single word of New Testament scripture was ever written.

I completely understand your interpretation of the metaphor, but no.
John 1:1 says the Word is the seed

 

[Sy_Noe]

You appeal to relativism then?

The Church is not only human, but divine. It is after all the mystical body of Christ, guided by the HS. So even if/when humans fail, the HS will not.

Sure, God has the authority to change who He gives authority too. When the Jewish leaders fell short, He gave authority to His NT Church. The difference is He made absolute statements about that Church. To say that He transfers from one group to another, automatically implies a failure of the first. If it is continuation, then why the need to shift to a new group, while the former still remains present?

God using whoever for whatever he wants does not negate that He chose to establish a Church which taught absolute truth and He promised it would always be.

Oh heavens no not at all do I appeal to relativism. I believe there is ultimate truth and of course with our differences, people are going to be wrong about certain things. As far as I know maybe even none of us finite beings has ever understood everything exactly right and haven’t gotten it all right and will be wrong about at least something. But I am fine with that. I don’t mind gray area when it comes to what essentially comes down to matters of faith. I’m fine with some mystery and not needing things spelled out black and white for me by other humans.

I’m just not as certain that we finite humans can know with the degree of such certainty faithful Catholics say they do. I certainly think we can believe we know. But there’s a difference. Even to believe we know it takes leaps of faith to get to that point. Faith and belief just doesn’t equate with knowing for sure to me.

But that’s how I was created and how I tick. No the HS will not fail and we shall know soon enough if as we believe He comes again. In the meantime I trust God knows our hearts and our minds and souls though. And why we understand as we do.

A Catholic just asked me on another thread, “How in hell are you going to get to heaven?” My reply was if I do, in the same way he is. By the grace and mercy of God. I don’t believe only practicing Catholics make it. I’m pretty sure you don’t either. As far as I know even Jews who are still present and others will be in heaven. Even Jesus said there are those of other folds…

All any of us can do is to walk by faith not by sight. With trembling hearts striving to work out our salvations. And I assuredly pray each of us, you and yayeanieys and all of us here get to meet in heaven! How glorious that would be! God’s blessings and peace on everyone’s journey!

 

[yateanieys]

All any of us can do is to walk by faith not by sight. With trembling hearts striving to work out our salvations. And I assuredly pray each of us, you and yayeanieys and all of us here get to meet in heaven! How glorious that would be! God’s blessings and peace on everyone’s journey!

You are much better at saying what I want to say than me

Cheers and God bless!

 

[Abu]

yateanieys #124
I just define the Church differently than you.

Then start taking the Lord seriously:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." (Mt 16:19)

So the rock is St Peter and since even the gates of hell cannot prevail against it, so who is yateanieys to presume that Christ never instituted his Church, unassailable by even the devil?

“The Church has no authority” (post #50)
#126
the pope has authority as a shepherd, but not ultimate authority. Catholics obey the command and teachings of the pope as they attribute the Authority of God to him

.
In defining Christ’s teaching, the Pope has Christ’s authority which cannot be denied except for personal pride like the devil – “I will not serve”, as Christ specifically mandated and conferred “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20).

I put no man before Jesus.

Except like all of those so misled that they put there own misinterpretations before the specific instructions of Jesus, faithfully recorded by His chosen Apostles – all of those misled by the multitude of self-proclaimers placing themselves as greater than Jesus Himself while myopically identifying themselves as “followers”.

#132
Could the Apostles power to forgive maybe have been intended mainly for non-believers?

Why the speculation? His Apostles were specifically mandated to “teach all nations” and only the baptised may so partake of this sacrament which can be administered only by a validly ordained priest.

 

[Sy_Noe]

You are much better at saying what I want to say than me

Cheers and God bless!

Not really. I just noticed I misspelled your name. Typo. You’ve done quite well. But thanks and God bless you as well.

 

[Abu]

The quote used by Sy Noe from Pope Francis in his posts to try justify his ambivalence on dogma and doctrine is
“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage… it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.”

This comes up against the reality that Pope Francis has once again reiterated the fact of the Church’s doctrine:
**January 23, 2015
Pope Francis Shocks Liberals on Same-Sex “Marriage”
Paul Kengor **
Extracts:
In his trip to the Philippines, Pope Francis once again defended marriage, and he again edged closer to a firm, unequivocal papal statement against same-sex “marriage.” As Francis clearly continues to carefully move in that direction, liberals, both secular and non-secular, non-Catholic and Catholic, are going to feel a severe sense of betrayal and grave disappointment, contrary to the most optimistic expectations they’ve eagerly imposed upon their first “gay-marriage” pope.

In the Philippines last week, Francis stated unequivocally that the family is being threatened by relativistic “powerful forces” that are looking to “disfigure God’s plan for creation” and to “redefine the very institution of marriage.” He denounced what he called the “ideological colonization of the family.” To cite the larger quotation reported by Catholic News Agency, the pope warned against increasing efforts “to redefine the very institution of marriage, by relativism, by the culture of the ephemeral, by a lack of openness to life,” and against “powerful forces which threaten to disfigure God’s plan for creation and betray the very values which have inspired and shaped all that is best in your culture.”

In short, Francis was clearly referring to the most obvious attempt to redefine marriage: same-sex “marriage.” This was understood even by the liberal, secular, mainstream media. Here are just a few examples:

MSNBC ran the headline, “Pope Francis suggests gay marriage threatens traditional families.” Its opening line stated: “In a reference to gay marriage, Pope Francis on Friday warned against an ideological colonization of the family.”

Reuters opened with this: “Pope Francis on Friday warned against an ‘ideological colonization of the family,’ a reference to gay marriage around the world.”
crisismagazine.com/2015/pope-francis-prepares-shock-liberals-sex-marriage

 

[Randy_Carson]

Most definitely, the Word of God gave us the Bible. The Church (as in the body of believers) was inspired to write it. You might want to amend your definition, brother.

Yate-

This is really pretty straightforward. All of the men who were inspired to write the NT were members of the one Church that was in existence at that time. There weren’t multiple “churches” in the sense of being isolated and separate from one another; they were, in effect, simply local parishes of the one, early Church.

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26). As early as 107 A.D., those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote:

You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

Notice that Ignatius does not take pains to introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century. John, the beloved disciple, may have thought of himself as a member of the Catholic Church!

The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day. As a side note, it appears that the believers in Antioch may have coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church” – terms they used to describe the one body of believers in Christ.

One Protestant author who is honest about this history is the renowned Church historian, J. N. D. Kelly. Kelly dates the usage of the name “Catholic” after the death of the Apostle John, but he acknowledges that the original Church founded by Jesus called itself the “Catholic Church”.

“As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was ‘universal’ or ‘general’ … As applied to the Church, its primary significance was to underline its universality as opposed to the local character of the individual congregations. Very quickly, however, in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations. . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church” (J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 5th ed. [San Francisco: Harper, 1978], 190f).

Hope this helps.

:tiphat:

 

[Sy_Noe]

The quote used by Sy Noe from Pope Francis in his posts to try justify his ambivalence on dogma and doctrine is
“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage… it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.”

This comes up against the reality that Pope Francis has once again reiterated the fact of the Church’s doctrine:
**January 23, 2015
Pope Francis Shocks Liberals on Same-Sex “Marriage”
Paul Kengor **
Extracts:
In his trip to the Philippines, Pope Francis once again defended marriage, and he again edged closer to a firm, unequivocal papal statement against same-sex “marriage.” As Francis clearly continues to carefully move in that direction, liberals, both secular and non-secular, non-Catholic and Catholic, are going to feel a severe sense of betrayal and grave disappointment, contrary to the most optimistic expectations they’ve eagerly imposed upon their first “gay-marriage” pope.

In the Philippines last week, Francis stated unequivocally that the family is being threatened by relativistic “powerful forces” that are looking to “disfigure God’s plan for creation” and to “redefine the very institution of marriage.” He denounced what he called the “ideological colonization of the family.” To cite the larger quotation reported by Catholic News Agency, the pope warned against increasing efforts “to redefine the very institution of marriage, by relativism, by the culture of the ephemeral, by a lack of openness to life,” and against “powerful forces which threaten to disfigure God’s plan for creation and betray the very values which have inspired and shaped all that is best in your culture.”

In short, Francis was clearly referring to the most obvious attempt to redefine marriage: same-sex “marriage.” This was understood even by the liberal, secular, mainstream media. Here are just a few examples:

MSNBC ran the headline, “Pope Francis suggests gay marriage threatens traditional families.” Its opening line stated: “In a reference to gay marriage, Pope Francis on Friday warned against an ideological colonization of the family.”

Reuters opened with this: “Pope Francis on Friday warned against an ‘ideological colonization of the family,’ a reference to gay marriage around the world.”
crisismagazine.com/2015/pope-francis-prepares-shock-liberals-sex-marriage

Whew this has been a day for me on CAF. Time for dinner. I’ve been judged prideful, selfish and now that I am justifying the Pope’s ambivalence? Huh? While I truly love this Pope for his humility, tone, and trying to get Catholics to not focus so much on just 2 topics… I was too young to recall John XX111 but of those since, Pope Francis has been my favorite Pope if we were taking a poll… you are putting words into my mouth I am afraid Abu. Never has been a doubt in a mind that Francis assuredly continues on with CC teachings across the board. I have referred to him as the Holy Father etc but I just read here al.com/living/index.ssf/2014/10/pope_francis_is_like_one_of_th.html that he prefers Fr Francis to Your Holiness).

Rest assured nothing has changed under Francis other than tone and his attempt to get Catholics to broaden the list of topics they discuss. To not insist only on those 2 and to not talk about them all the time or as much. I’m not sure how well that is working but I applaud him for the attempt. Just because there are so so much more than just those 2 things. And I have never expected anything more.

 

[eazyduzit]

Having a hard time finding where someone get his “Authority” from what you referenced.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

From the Haydocks Catholic Bible commentary

Ver. 12. He gave to them power to be made the adoptive sons of God, and heirs of the kingdom of heaven. They are made the children of God by believing and by a new spiritual birth in the sacrament of baptism, not of blood; (literally, not of bloods) not by the will, and desires of the flesh, not by the will of men, nor by human generation, as children are first born of their natural parents, but of God, by faith and divine grace.

This may be difficult for the literal to understand, but it is explained by 1Jn.5:4, “For whatsoever is born of God over cometh the world; and this is the victory that overcometh the world, that is our faith”.

This is how it works. The one who is born of God has the victory that Jesus achieved. He said all authority is given unto Him. Therefore if I am under His authority I am able to use that authority by faith (in His name)

Hope this helps

 

[yateanieys]

Then start taking the Lord seriously

That was honestly as far as I got. Take the Lord seriously or take you and your adopted doctrine seriously? You’re a piece of work, Abu. But, please feel free to respond to this and I’ll get as far as I can in reading it.

Just for that, know that the rest of your post was written in vain, as the person it was intended for has ignored it. Say what you will, but you are the most callous Catholic I’ve met to date. And yet, that’s the second infraction due on this forum that I’d wilfully wager you won’t receive because you’re Catholic

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

I’m just not as certain that we finite humans can know with the degree of such certainty faithful Catholics say they do. I certainly think we can believe we know. But there’s a difference. Even to believe we know it takes leaps of faith to get to that point. Faith and belief just doesn’t equate with knowing for sure to me.

I agree that it comes down to an act of faith, even with the most intellectual or plain argument being presented. Jn 6 is one of my favorite illustrations of how faith effects the reception of Jesus’ truth (not directed at anyone. Just a reflection of the necessity of faith). In terms of knowing for sure, there are somethings I know for sure as an act of faith. I have to admit that there are many things I don’t know for sure yet take it on faith. As you mentioned, we are to walk by faith not by sight. I think another way to put it, “Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief”. Authority is something I wrestled with after years of living a lukewarm, pray only when I want something kinda faith. I studied the issue but not nearly as much as I prayed about it.

All any of us can do is to walk by faith not by sight. With trembling hearts striving to work out our salvations. And I assuredly pray each of us, you and yayeanieys and all of us here get to meet in heaven! How glorious that would be! God’s blessings and peace on everyone’s journey!

 

[Paul_Edwards]

How does the conversation usually go with someone who’s Orthodox? Couldn’t they use the same ECF quotes you use and state that the same authority continues in the Orthodox church today?

No, because the apostles themselves (and by extension their successors) only have authority in so far as they are in unity with Peter

 

[rinnie]

I’m not sure though the current Pope views himself as more wise. He seems to agree with us that there are many of wisdom outside the Catholic faith too. In speaking about Christ’s body of believers, Catholics and Protestants, walking together, Francis said:

“We each have in our churches excellent theologians".

“Our shared baptism is more important than our differences.”

“We all have the Holy Spirit within us, which prays within us.”



cruxnow.com/church/2014/10/28/pope-francis-urges-catholics-protestants-work-together-video/

I don’t think the Pope would ever view himself more wise then anyone else, nor any other Pope.

What the Pope knows is that he has the wisdom that comes straight from God that was promised to him by Jesus.

Jesus told him I will give you the words. Now Jesus told him this right before he returned to the Father in heaven, do you believe he stopped giving the Popes and Bishops the words, and left us Orphans?

Or do you believe as the Pope and Bishops do that Jesus kept his word, continues to send the Advocate the Holy Spirit to lead us until the end of time?

 

[rinnie]

The question really isn’t who is in “the church” and who is not. A person can accept Christ and be baptized into the mystical body of Christ and yet lose salvation! Thus the real question is “who has living faith,” the type of supernatural faith that will take you to heaven!

This is a critical distinction, and I think you would be extremely surprised to learn the true answer, which is given by St. Thomas Aquinas when he asks, “Whether a man who disbelieves one article of faith, can have lifeless faith in the other articles?”

His conclusion: Nope. Faith is IMPOSSIBLE unless a person assents to the entire deposit of faith as taught by an infallible authority.

See II-II, Q.5, article 3.

My dear friend, a person’s opinions will not merit eternal life, even if those opinions very much resemble the truths of the Catholic Faith. Even if you say, “Lord, Lord,” I believe in you!

And that pretty much nails it. Infallible Authority. It can only be handed down from God, How? By the Laying of the hands, do we all individually have it? No! Why? Because Jesus did not set it up that way!

Could he have? Yes! He could have done it any way he chose. Why did he do it that way?

Another Mystery of our faith.

 

[rinnie]

“Perhaps God was taking His Authority elsewhere before the CC decreed a counterfactual canon. It could happen right?” This is a quote from the post I replied too.

How else would one answer this question? The question asserts that God transferred authority from one entity to another. Thus, the argument fits the question. If Jesus had to transfer authority to a different Church or a different group of people then the original church would necessarily have failed, no?

Correct. It would make no sense to do so. It would mean Jesus was not perfect nor was his Church. That is why it could never happen.

 

[rinnie]

Amen. I get the feeling that people who deny the authority of Christ’s Church have some hangup with authority in general. I think it’s a pride thing.

Not just people who deny the authority of Christ’s Church, we have many in the RCC who accept the authority of the Pope, but struggle to live up to its commands.

Lets face it don’t we all, and does this world not make it harder and harder ever single day!!

 

[Sy_Noe]

I agree that it comes down to an act of faith, even with the most intellectual or plain argument being presented. Jn 6 is one of my favorite illustrations of how faith effects the reception of Jesus’ truth (not directed at anyone. Just a reflection of the necessity of faith). In terms of knowing for sure, there are somethings I know for sure as an act of faith. I have to admit that there are many things I don’t know for sure yet take it on faith. As you mentioned, we are to walk by faith not by sight. I think another way to put it, “Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief”. Authority is something I wrestled with after years of living a lukewarm, pray only when I want something kinda faith. I studied the issue but not nearly as much as I prayed about it.

Thank you for your cordial reply and it’s helpful to know that at least you and Randy Carson seem to get somewhat of what I’m saying

Jn 6 is interesting because some by faith take literally Jesus’s words to eat His body. And that those who walked away couldn’t accept that. Other Christians if I understand correctly, take the word “eat” figuratively (since Jesus sometimes spoke figuratively) to mean believe in Christ’s sacrifice of His body on the cross for us. And that those who walked did so because they were mistakenly thinking Jesus was srill talking about literally eating His flesh when instead He said the spirit brings life.

Because my heart and soul seeks Him, I don’t consider myself lukewarm to be spit out by Christ. But I don’t think that’s what you were necessarily suggesting anyway.

I am curious if you don’t mind sharing just a few specific examples, What are some things you know for sure vs what many things you take by faith?

 

[Sy_Noe]

I don’t think the Pope would ever view himself more wise then anyone else, nor any other Pope.

What the Pope knows is that he has the wisdom that comes straight from God that was promised to him by Jesus.

Jesus told him I will give you the words. Now Jesus told him this right before he returned to the Father in heaven, do you believe he stopped giving the Popes and Bishops the words, and left us Orphans?

Or do you believe as the Pope and Bishops do that Jesus kept his word, continues to send the Advocate the Holy Spirit to lead us until the end of time?

No I don’t believe we are orphans with the Holy Spirit within us. Do I believe it’s possible that even none of us holds the correct understandings as things are meant to be? Yes it’s possible because we’re mere finite human beings trying to prove by faith the truths of an infinite being God. Do I believe God understands us though and that we are all dependent on His mercy in the end. Yes to that too.