What's your denomination/religions views towards abortion?

[meltzerboy]

What’s your denomination’s/religion’s views/position towards abortion? If you have no religion what is your own personal views towards abortion.

The ELCA describes itself as “a community supportive of life,” and encourages women to explore alternatives to abortion such as adoption. However, the Social Statement asserts that there are certain circumstances under which a decision to end a pregnancy can be “morally responsible.” These include cases where the pregnancy “presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman,” situations where “the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse,” and “circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant.” Regardless of the reason, the ELCA opposes abortion when “a fetus is developed enough to live outside a uterus with the aid of reasonable and necessary technology.” The ELCA opposes “laws that deny access to safe and affordable services for morally justifiable abortions,” and “laws that are primarily intended to harass those contemplating or deciding for an abortion.” The statement emphasizes the prevention of circumstances leading to abortion, specifically encouraging “appropriate forms of sex education in schools, community pregnancy prevention programs, and parenting preparation classes.”

The Jewish perspective on abortion is that it is permissible (and required) when the mother’s life is in danger if the pregnancy is not terminated, even in the last trimester. Rape and incest, which cause traumatic pain to the mother, are also permissible instances for abortion since continuing the pregnancy might add great damage to the emotional health of the mother. There is more divergence of opinion about the latter two cases, however, considered by some Orthodox as a “leniency.” The rationale about abortion in Judaism is that the fetus is not regarded as a person with a soul before birth. This is based on Genesis, in which it states that Adam was fashioned out of the earth and only then did G-d infuse in him the breath of life (the soul). There are other passages in the Old Testament that also lend support to this definition of life. Despite these allowances, the Jewish view is that abortion should never be on demand and should always be considered a grave decision.

 

[kathmandu]

So lots of Roman Catholic answers and one Jewish answer. We all believe different things. What do the Roman Catholics propose we do with all the unwanted children who were not successfully adopted?

 

[LDNCatholic]

So lots of Roman Catholic answers and one Jewish answer. We all believe different things. What do the Roman Catholics propose we do with all the unwanted children who were not successfully adopted?

Well we did propose caring for them, that is until all of our adoption agencies were forced to close down in the UK.

I still think the official line is to care for the children. Their parents might be selfish but they certainly aren’t unwanted. God wants them. And I’m sure there are plenty of people who would be willing to take them in.

We certainly don’t propose murder.

If you don’t want a child-don’t have sex. It is glaringly obvious and so simple even a child could understand it.

 

[LDNCatholic]

I’m glad the meeting went well mate.

 

[Davina100]

And as for the poster who claimed that giving a new born up for adoption is a loving thing…that is one of the most insane things I have ever heard. Shoving a relative out of your life, abandoning them, is not a act of love. What a mess. You should see what this has done to me and my birthmother. After 59 years this does not just go away.

I truly am sorry that you had an unhappy childhood, even worse than unhappy childhood, but what I can not understand is if you don’t see adoption as a loving option does that mean killing the baby is more loving somehow?

I wonder what it would have done to you and your bithmother if she hadn’t chosen life…that wouldn’t have just gone away either.

One evil act does not permit further evil acts.

As for the children that do not get adopted there needs to be help for them to enter adulthood and continue their lives. If we follow the teachings in scripture we are all supposed to care for orphans and widows, the poor etc. But then again if we followed the teachings in scripture there wouldn’t be unwanted pregnancies, so no need for abortion and this conversation doesn’t even need to be held.
But the world at large is very far from following scriptures.

 

[wanner47]

As a former Lutheran, I can attest as to what the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America believes about abortion – their increasingly pro-abortion stance was a catalyst for my conversion to Catholicism.

Incidentally, an excellent resource for non-religious arguments against abortion is www.SecularProLife.org

 

[kathmandu]

Well we did propose caring for them, that is until all of our adoption agencies were forced to close down in the UK.

I still think the official line is to care for the children. Their parents might be selfish but they certainly aren’t unwanted. God wants them. And I’m sure there are plenty of people who would be willing to take them in.

We certainly don’t propose murder.

If you don’t want a child-don’t have sex. It is glaringly obvious and so simple even a child could understand it.

No, you are missing my point. Throw away children might be adopted but the adoptions are not always successful. My parents felt they were stick with me, a constant reminder that I was not their own child.

 

[kathmandu]

I truly am sorry that you had an unhappy childhood, even worse than unhappy childhood, but what I can not understand is if you don’t see adoption as a loving option does that mean killing the baby is more loving somehow?

I wonder what it would have done to you and your bithmother if she hadn’t chosen life…that wouldn’t have just gone away either.

One evil act does not permit further evil acts.

As for the children that do not get adopted there needs to be help for them to enter adulthood and continue their lives. If we follow the teachings in scripture we are all supposed to care for orphans and widows, the poor etc. But then again if we followed the teachings in scripture there wouldn’t be unwanted pregnancies, so no need for abortion and this conversation doesn’t even need to be held.
But the world at large is very far from following scriptures.

A unwanted pregnancy is a lose/lose situation for all involved. And what you define as an evil act may not be defined as an evil act to others. Aborting a fetus is not a nice thing to do under any circumstances, but the pain does not last anywhere near as long as a lifetime of dealing with rejection issues, suicidal issues, functioning issues, etc. We are unwanted and we always know that. It follows us like a cloud and affects everything in our lives. I believe in quality of life. If you cannot have a degree of quality of life you can accomplish nothing, spiritual or otherwise.

Every time I see one of those bumper stickers that says “aren’t you glad your mother chose life” I want to stop them and scream at them for being stupid and insensitive. Those of you who were raised by your own parents just do not have any idea what we have been through.

 

[Chesterton18]

I am always befuddled by this strange pro-choice notion that children born into disadvantageous circumstances might conceivably benefit from never being born. If one leaves religion out the equation then death is simply annihilation- the complete destruction of the self. In what sense am I benefiting when I have ceased to exist? Yes, I confess that I’d rather not be an uneducated prostitute. But even that wanting is a function of existence and simply *can’t *come into the equation when I no longer exist. For this reason suicide is an irrational, incoherent way of proceeding.

Now it’s quite true that it might be better for other people if I weren’t allowed to become an uneducated prostitute but it is reprehensible to make a moral decision to permanently annihilate one person based on the transient good of another. In any other context this is perfectly plain and thus we almost universally find Nazism, Eugenics, and Utilitarian Bioethics distasteful, but somehow where abortion is concerned this point becomes fuzzy.

 

[bluelake]

What’s your denomination’s/religion’s views/position towards abortion? If you have no religion what is your own personal views towards abortion.

The ELCA describes itself as “a community supportive of life,” and encourages women to explore alternatives to abortion such as adoption. However, the Social Statement asserts that there are certain circumstances under which a decision to end a pregnancy can be “morally responsible.” These include cases where the pregnancy “presents a clear threat to the physical life of the woman,” situations where “the pregnancy occurs when both parties do not participate willingly in sexual intercourse,” and “circumstances of extreme fetal abnormality, which will result in severe suffering and very early death of an infant.” Regardless of the reason, the ELCA opposes abortion when “a fetus is developed enough to live outside a uterus with the aid of reasonable and necessary technology.” The ELCA opposes “laws that deny access to safe and affordable services for morally justifiable abortions,” and “laws that are primarily intended to harass those contemplating or deciding for an abortion.” The statement emphasizes the prevention of circumstances leading to abortion, specifically encouraging “appropriate forms of sex education in schools, community pregnancy prevention programs, and parenting preparation classes.”

It is never morally correct to kill a child under any circumstances.
The Lord says "Thou shalt not kill. Fifth Commandment.
I would not attend any Christian Church that supports killing babies in the womb.
I know this sounds harsh (killing) but that is exactly what happens to the baby when an abortion is performed.

God have mercy,
bluelake

 

[Chesterton18]

A unwanted pregnancy is a lose/lose situation for all involved. And what you define as an evil act may not be defined as an evil act to others. Aborting a fetus is not a nice thing to do under any circumstances, but the pain does not last anywhere near as long as a lifetime of dealing with rejection issues, suicidal issues, functioning issues, etc. We are unwanted and we always know that. It follows us like a cloud and affects everything in our lives. I believe in quality of life. If you cannot have a degree of quality of life you can accomplish nothing, spiritual or otherwise.

Every time I see one of those bumper stickers that says “aren’t you glad your mother chose life” I want to stop them and scream at them for being stupid and insensitive. Those of you who were raised by your own parents just do not have any idea what we have been through.

And a child who has been aborted has no idea what anyone has been through. In what sense would your life had been better had you had no life? How would you have appreciated it? Do you imagine you’d be off floating somewhere in space thinking, “pheww, dodged a real bullet there! That could have been close!” Orthodox Christianity has no consensus on what happens to the aborted, but atheism has a resounding consensus: nothing. They’re simply annihilated and have no opinion on their lack of existence, vis-a-vis existence.

The long and short of it is life is hard. Life is dreadfully, desperately hard. It’s harder for some than others and often we seem to have no control over the hardest bits. We are in a vale of tears. But it is, on any view, irrational to believe that we’d be better off if we weren’t anywhere at all.

 

[Davina100]

And what you define as an evil act may not be defined as an evil act to others.

There is a difference between right and wrong. It doesn’t change from one person to the next.

Was Hitler evil for the atrocities that were done? What if he didn’t define it as evil? Does that some how make it right?

I believe in quality of life as well but I don’t believe anyone has the right to decide for another that the quality of their life is not worth protecting. As long as a person is given the chance at life then they can make of it what they will.
Someone born into poverty can rise above it. Someone born with physical limitations can use their other skills.
We are all given strengths and weaknesses. Advantages and disadvantages. It is no one else’s place to say that they are not good enough to live.
We all have value. We are all children of God.

 

[Roy5]

Where I find myself questioning the position of the CC is when there are those severe situations where I think that perhaps abortion should be the decision of the people involved and not a decision made by the Almighty state. After all, Mother Nature (or is that God?) engineers millions of ‘abortions’ a year. We call them miscarriages. Does Mother Nature (or God?) ‘murder’ those babies? Or, is this a form of protection against offspring with serious defects? I’m not sure of the answer to this, but it is a question that often comes to mind.

Two quick examples to illustrate - true stories. One involved a woman who already had six young children . She and her husband were devout Catholics, and they practiced CC-approved 'birth control' which, like artificial birth control, is aimed at preventing pregnancy. It didn't work - again! Her doctor had warned her that another delivery could mean her death and that of the baby. Her priest said that she and her husband had to trust in God. They trusted in God. She died, leaving six young motherless children. Her husband became so distraught and so angry at the CC that he left the church and the family became Episcopalians.

Another example. A downs syndrome young teen, already struggling with physical problems, was gang-raped when supervision failed one day at a group home. She became pregnant. Her parents, good Catholics, decided that it simply wasn't fair for the child to go through all the trauma that she would experience if she went ahead with the pregnancy. They also feared that because of the baby's two parents - a downs syndrome mother and father - adoption would be unlikely. Anyway, they agreed to a very early abortion. When she confessed to her priest he severely scolded her. She responded that it had to be their private decision and not that of either the church or the government.. Anyway, it led that couple to leave the church, and I'm not sure they attend anywhere now. I know that they argued that there is something amiss when we can justify sending our military to faraway lands to kill people we don't know (often civilians) and the CC seems to bless that. But then the same CC denounces something less grotesque done in the interest of the welfare, health and future happiness of their daughter and her loved ones. The ends seem to to justify the means in one situation but not in the other???

 Does anyone out there agree that in these two instances abortion may have been the lesser evil? I've struggled with these kinds of situations and am inclined to think so. At least I'm inclined to think that it becomes a personal, private decision and not one to be made by the government.

 

[wanner47]

Where I find myself questioning the position of the CC is when there are those severe situations where I think that perhaps abortion should be the decision of the people involved and not a decision made by the Almighty state. After all, Mother Nature (or is that God?) engineers millions of ‘abortions’ a year. We call them miscarriages. Does Mother Nature (or God?) ‘murder’ those babies? Or, is this a form of protection against offspring with serious defects? I’m not sure of the answer to this, but it is a question that often comes to mind.

By your logic, it is acceptable for me to kill my grandmother, because she’ll die eventually.

Actually, by your logic it’s acceptable for any human being to deliberately kill another, Two quick examples to illustrate - true stories. One involved a woman who already had six young children . She and her husband were devout Catholics, and they practiced CC-approved ‘birth control’ which, like artificial birth control, is aimed at preventing pregnancy. It didn’t work - again!

What method of NFP was in use? STM, Billings, Creighton, Marquette?

Are you aware of the studies showing that NFP is as effective, if not superior to, artificial contraception?

Her doctor had warned her that another delivery could mean her death and that of the baby. Her priest said that she and her husband had to trust in God. They trusted in God. She died, leaving six young motherless children. Her husband became so distraught and so angry at the CC that he left the church and the family became Episcopalians.

That’s very sad, but we may never do evil so that good may result. That includes killing a child to save one’s self.

Can I throw my toddler in front of a car if it means I’ll live longer as a result?

Moreover, I would like some proof of the case you cited because it’s unheard of in modern medicine. Given the principle of double effect, abortion is never necessary to save the life of a woman. Catholic medicine dictates that babies are patients too, not disposable objects.

Another example. A downs syndrome young teen, already struggling with physical problems, was gang-raped when supervision failed one day at a group home. She became pregnant. Her parents, good Catholics, decided that it simply wasn’t fair for the child to go through all the trauma that she would experience if she went ahead with the pregnancy. They also feared that because of the baby’s two parents - a downs syndrome mother and father - adoption would be unlikely. Anyway, they agreed to a very early abortion. When she confessed to her priest he severely scolded her. She responded that it had to be their private decision and not that of either the church or the government… Anyway, it led that couple to leave the church, and I’m not sure they attend anywhere now. I know that they argued that there is something amiss when we can justify sending our military to faraway lands to kill people we don’t know (often civilians) and the CC seems to bless that. But then the same CC denounces something less grotesque done in the interest of the welfare, health and future happiness of their daughter and her loved ones. The ends seem to to justify the means in one situation but not in the other???

So you think that the child should have been executed for the crimes of the rapists? How is that fair?

Does anyone out there agree that in these two instances abortion may have been the lesser evil? I’ve struggled with these kinds of situations and am inclined to think so. At least I’m inclined to think that it becomes a personal, private decision and not one to be made by the government.

I don’t think it is ever necessary to commit evil, lesser or greater.

 

[Roy5]

wanner47

Hm! Never okay to commit evil? How about war? Killing civilians strikes me as evil, but didn’t dropping the A-bomb on Hiroshima amd Nagaski achieve the end of World War, thereby saving maybe millions of other Japanse plus countless Americans and others? Touchy difficult area. I was especially troubled to learn that Hiroshima was the Protestant center of Japan and Nagasaki the Catholic center of Japan.

Should our spies live doubt lives, live a lie, to get important information? Was the anti-Nazi underground wrong to deceive the Nazis whenever they could? Was it wrong for slaves to deceive their owners etc and run away? Should I tell a woman, should she ask, that her dress looks good on her and fudge the truth? What about telling kids that there is a Santa or an Easter bunny?

And speaking of the Bible, we've made Jacob the great liar into a revered patriarch. God was so enamoured with him that he changed his name to Israel. We consider Solomon, with his 700 wives and 300 concubines, a great and wise man. Doesn't the Bible even call him the wisest man who ever lived? I seem to recall that.  

We could go on and on. This whole business of means and ends is confusing, at best. What about the Christians in China who meet secretly, deliberately trying to deceive the government? What about Christians during World War II who lied to protect Jews and others? 

As for abortion, I am against it in 99% of the cases, maybe more. But in a situation where the life of a wife and devoted mother of several young children is a stake, I would choose the mother in most instances. And there are such situations now and then. Wasn't a nun recently excommunicated for going along with an abortion at some Catholic hospital somewhere? I forget the details. There are exceptions that prove the rule - as the old saying goes. Certainly miscarriages are commonplace, so God apparently has designed a system whereby babies are aborted naturally for whatever reason.

 That's it, Keep smiling. God bless everybody, especially those facing extremely difficult choices in life. Remember Matt. 7:1-5.  I suspect that Jesus spoke these words to caution us about rushing to judgement. I'll let God do that.

 

[wanner47]

wanner47

Hm! Never okay to commit evil? How about war? Killing civilians strikes me as evil, but didn’t dropping the A-bomb on Hiroshima amd Nagaski achieve the end of World War, thereby saving maybe millions of other Japanse plus countless Americans and others? Touchy difficult area. I was especially troubled to learn that Hiroshima was the Protestant center of Japan and Nagasaki the Catholic center of Japan.

Legitimate defense of one’s country and killing enemy combatants in self-defense is not evil. If war does not meet just war criteria, such war would indeed be evil. I believe that it was wrong to use the A-bomb near civilian populations, even if it did allegedly save more lives.

Should our spies live doubt lives, live a lie, to get important information? Was the anti-Nazi underground wrong to deceive the Nazis whenever they could? Was it wrong for slaves to deceive their owners etc and run away? Should I tell a woman, should she ask, that her dress looks good on her and fudge the truth? What about telling kids that there is a Santa or an Easter bunny?

You’re assuming that all of the above are always evil in every situation. That is not the case.

And speaking of the Bible, we’ve made Jacob the great liar into a revered patriarch. God was so enamoured with him that he changed his name to Israel. We consider Solomon, with his 700 wives and 300 concubines, a great and wise man. Doesn’t the Bible even call him the wisest man who ever lived? I seem to recall that.

So your stance is that evil is permissible. I take it, then, you approve of all murder, all rape, all sexual assault, etc. since it is always permissible (in your view) to do evil?

We could go on and on. This whole business of means and ends is confusing, at best. What about the Christians in China who meet secretly, deliberately trying to deceive the government? What about Christians during World War II who lied to protect Jews and others?

See my responses above.

As for abortion, I am against it in 99% of the cases, maybe more.

Why? According to your interpretation of the Bible, it is permissible to do evil. If that’s the case, why do you oppose abortion?

But in a situation where the life of a wife and devoted mother of several young children is a stake, I would choose the mother in most instances.

So you’re saying that I COULD throw my toddler in front of a bus if it meant it would save my own life, and that would be a morally good act?

And there are such situations now and then. Wasn’t a nun recently excommunicated for going along with an abortion at some Catholic hospital somewhere? I forget the details.

That happened in my diocese. The abortion was, by all accounts, unnecessary, and the hospital has been stripped of its Catholic status due to its willingness to kill innocent children. You can read details here.

There are exceptions that prove the rule - as the old saying goes. Certainly miscarriages are commonplace, so God apparently has designed a system whereby babies are aborted naturally for whatever reason.

Once again, is it then permissible for me to kill my grandmother, since God has apparently designed a system whereby old people die of natural causes?

That’s it, Keep smiling. God bless everybody, especially those facing extremely difficult choices in life. Remember Matt. 7:1-5. I suspect that Jesus spoke these words to caution us about rushing to judgement. I’ll let God do that.

In the meantime, I’ll keep defending the lives of the defenseless, innocent unborn whom you believe it is acceptable to slaughter in the womb.