What's your level of willpower?

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I would give up my free will if it was Gods will. God gave us a free will so we could choose Him over sin and evil. Like everyone I have sinned and like most of us have regretted it.
God desires us to choose Him over sin so if I give up my free will, in other words give it over to God to avoid sin, I would do it in a heartbeat.
The last thing I want to do is sin and I know that as hard as I try I will fall short in some way.I would be happy to be freed from that possibility.
 
Benadam said:
God’s forsight doesn’t hinder the ability of certain creatures to be self determined.

You may know exactly what a colony of ants will do but that doesn’t mean you determined what they would do.🙂
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If god knows what you are going to do before you do it, it means a path is already set and you couldn’t do otherwise. There are no choices or options. If god has the forsight that you are going to eat tacos for lunch, then you are going to eat tacos for lunch. Burgers, chili, salad, etc… items you thought were options, weren’t really options at all, only conditions that further contributed to determining you to the set path, the path that an all knowing god would be aware of.

Whether he determined you to this path or not, the fact that he knows your path already, and knows every step you will take already, means you couldn’t do otherwise. You do not have free-will.
 
Benadam said:
You’ve made a claim but haven’t offered a reason to believe it. How does another person’s knowing what I will, prove that I wasn’t free to will ? Knowing my ‘path’ or my ‘every step’ are just descriptions of omniscience but don’t explain how knowing my path or every step removes the freedom to walk that path or take those steps.

You are not getting it.If God’s omniscience prevents freewill then it prevents God’s omnipotence as well. Your reasoning, which is based on the existence of God’s omniscience , taken to it’s logical conclusion would prevent God’s omnipotence as well. An argument that destroys the foundation that supports it is obviously illogical.
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I haven’t made a claim, only an observation. Again, If god knows what your every step will be before you make those steps, if he knows everything that is going to happen forever, then things will happen that way. He already knows it. Things cannot happen otherwise. They path is already set. You cannot do otherwise, you can only act according to this set path. If you cannot do otherwise then you do not have freedom, you do not have free-will. You are moved by causality, god, nature, the way, whatever, but not by personal choice. because you have no choice, the path is already set, you cannot choose to do otherwise.

I am not saying his knowing what will happen causes these things to happen, I am saying his knowing what will happen already means there is already a set path. And if there is already a set path, you cannot do otherwise. You do not have free-will.

Oh, and how does this prevent God’s omnipotence?
 
morgantj said:
I haven’t made a claim, only an observation. Again, If god knows what your every step will be before you make those steps, if he knows everything that is going to happen forever, then things will happen that way. He already knows it. Things cannot happen otherwise. They path is already set. You cannot do otherwise, you can only act according to this set path. If you cannot do otherwise then you do not have freedom, you do not have free-will. You are moved by causality, god, nature, the way, whatever, but not by personal choice. because you have no choice, the path is already set, you cannot choose to do otherwise.

I am not saying his knowing what will happen causes these things to happen, I am saying his knowing what will happen already means there is already a set path. And if there is already a set path, you cannot do otherwise. You do not have free-will.

Oh, and how does this prevent God’s omnipotence?
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if I cannot have free will because of God’s omniscience then it means that God did not have the power to grant free will because He is omniscient.

What evidence did you observe that demonstrated that there are no humans capable of willing freely?

When you say ‘cannot’ this does not address the subject of will.

What I will to do or will not to do determines the path God see’s beforehand not what I couldn’t do or could do.

To say I didn’t have a choice is to say I acted entirely in response to impulses in response to stimulus. This is the area the issue is being debated.

If my path is set how is this fact realized?
 
Benadam said:
if I cannot have free will because of God’s omniscience then it means that God did not have the power to grant free will because He is omniscient.

What evidence did you observe that demonstrated that there are no humans capable of willing freely?

When you say ‘cannot’ this does not address the subject of will.

What I will to do or will not to do determines the path God see’s beforehand not what I couldn’t do or could do.

To say I didn’t have a choice is to say I acted entirely in response to impulses in response to stimulus. This is the area the issue is being debated.

If my path is set how is this fact realized?
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uh… Again, if you claim that god knows what you are going to do before you do it, then a path is already determined. You will do it, you cannot do otherwise. You claim that god knows everything, including what we will do, which means he already knows what the path is we will travel, we will not travel any other path, he can see this, he has that forsight. So this means we can only go down one path. There are no options or choices, only one path. The fact is realized by implying that god has this ability to know all things.

If that interferes with gods so called quality of omniscience, that is not my problem. I am only stating the consequences and contradictions of what is being claimed and what believers believe. How do you explain this contradiction.

The contradiction is that you claim god gives you free-will, while at the same time you claim everything that happens is part of “gods plan” and that he knows and may even be determining everything that happens. If that is so, then you do not have free-will.
 
Your question sort of reminds me of martyrdom. If it comes my way, would I stand up for the faith? If I did, then the time of waiting would be over. The answer to it all would be at hand. I would die and find out. If I chickened out, then the time of waiting would continue. It is like you are asking if I want to condense all of my future choices into one choice, sort of like skipping to the end of a novel. It may be that if that moment comes that we have no choice in the sense that only one option will be good. I hope I take the good one, whichever it is in the situation.
 
Benadam, that was a really good answer! I would like to add one thing, however. Morgantj, you seem to think that because God knows what we’re going to do, we are going to do it. But perhaps it is the other way around. Perhaps God knows what we are going to do because we have chosen to do it. Just a thought.

:crossrc::signofcross::crossrc:
 
MarysGirls said:
Benadam, that was a really good answer! I would like to add one thing, however. Morgantj, you seem to think that because God knows what we’re going to do, we are going to do it. But perhaps it is the other way around. Perhaps God knows what we are going to do because we have chosen to do it. Just a thought.

:crossrc::signofcross::crossrc:
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You guys aren’t getting it. As I have already explained, I am not saying that because god has the foresight to know things before they happen that his ability of foresight causes these things to happen, NO. What I am saying is that if god knows what is going to happen before it happens, he can know this because a path is already laid out. If a path is already laid out for you, you cannot do otherwise. You cannot stray off that path. It is already determined. Therefore, since you can not do otherwise, you are determined to this path, there are no choices or options, you can only go on the path that is already determined, the path that god has the foresight to see. There is no freedom of will in that. You must go on the path that has been determined for you. It was not determined by you.
 
morgantj said:
You guys aren’t getting it. As I have already explained, I am not saying that because god has the foresight to know things before they happen that his ability of foresight causes these things to happen, NO. What I am saying is that if god knows what is going to happen before it happens, he can know this because a path is already laid out. If a path is already laid out for you, you cannot do otherwise. You cannot stray off that path. It is already determined. Therefore, since you can not do otherwise, you are determined to this path, there are no choices or options, you can only go on the path that is already determined, the path that god has the foresight to see. There is no freedom of will in that. You must go on the path that has been determined for you. It was not determined by you.
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what you are calling a path, isn’t this just another term for a successive line of cause and effect? That God see’s the causes that effect our decisions and what our decision in turn cause , so and and so on?
 
MarysGirls said:
Benadam, that was a really good answer! I would like to add one thing, however. Morgantj, you seem to think that because God knows what we’re going to do, we are going to do it. But perhaps it is the other way around. Perhaps God knows what we are going to do because we have chosen to do it. Just a thought.

:crossrc::signofcross::crossrc:
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🙂
 
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MarysGirls:
perhaps it is the other way around. Perhaps God knows what we are going to do because we have chosen to do it. Just a thought.
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That doesn’t even make sense.

Look, The claim is that god knows what you are going to do BEFORE you do it. He already knows what you will do. This means a path is already set for you. That is how he can know about it. If a path is already set, that means you cannot do otherwise. Since you cannot do otherwise, you have no choices or options. you do not have free-will.

What you think are options are not really options at all, they are only conditions that further contribute to determining the set path that god is already aware of.

The reason you guys don’t want to admit to this is because the idea that you don’t have no free-will doesn’t work well with many other catholic teachings.

These contradictions should lead you to be skeptical. Don’t ignore it. You can always change your beliefs in light of new evidence, reason, etc…
 
morgantj said:
That doesn’t even make sense.

Look, The claim is that god knows what you are going to do BEFORE you do it. He already knows what you will do. This means a path is already set for you. That is how he can know about it. If a path is already set, that means you cannot do otherwise. Since you cannot do otherwise, you have no choices or options. you do not have free-will.

What you think are options are not really options at all, they are only conditions that further contribute to determining the set path that god is already aware of.

The reason you guys don’t want to admit to this is because the idea that you don’t have no free-will doesn’t work well with many other catholic teachings.

These contradictions should lead you to be skeptical. Don’t ignore it. You can always change your beliefs in light of new evidence, reason, etc…
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Oooh, I think I see what you believe now. Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever met someone who believes like that before. Morgantj . . . I don’t have a brilliant answer for you. I don’t understand everything. Some things are beyond our limited minds. I do still believe we have a free will. We’re not just some robots playing out the program set for us. We’re human beings, made in the image and likeness of God, who loved us so much that He gave us a free will - the power to choose whether or not we love Him. I can’t prove you wrong because I don’t have the knowledge, but I guess that’s where faith comes in. I hope you find the truth you seek. I for one am going to be confirmed at Easter as an “adult” in the Roman Catholic Church and I’ve never felt so right about anything in my life. (Though, in case you’re wondering, I didn’t just rely on my feelings; I did some research before entering my Confermation Prep. class.)
But I’m rambling. Sorry. Hope someone smarter than me can answer you. Later. 🙂
 
morgantj said:
That doesn’t even make sense.
Look, The claim is that god knows what you are going to do BEFORE you do it. He already knows what you will do. This means a path is already set for you. That is how he can know about it. If a path is already set, that means you cannot do otherwise. Since you cannot do otherwise, you have no choices or options. you do not have free-will.
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Benadam said:
morgantj;4972200:
That is a faulty statement. When trying to apply a cause and effect from a realm as different and unimagineable as eternity a thorough understanding of the differences offers help in resolving contradictions that otherwise confuse. For instance eternity is defined theologicly as ’ a duration without succession ,beginning or end. That’s a sense of the moment, that never began and never ends.No such thing as ‘before’ after’ and can’t be applied to it as if they existed in that state.

If we include even this limited grasp of understanding to the eternal state what Mary said is quite applicable. That God knows what we will do because we have done them from a perspective only He can experience.
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Eternity or no eternity, god knows what is going to happen before it happens. That means things WILL happen this one way that god already knows about. There is nothing you can do to stray from that way. You have no freedom to do otherwise. You are bound to that path. You call that free-will?

“God knows what we will do because we have done them from a perspective only He can experience.”

Yea, only he knows the predetermined path that you have no control over. LOL.
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Benadam said:
God’s foreknowledge does in fact mean that a line of cause and effect is ineviteable, but, the power of human will is within that line of foreseen causes and effects. You need to give reason why this explanation of how God’s foreknowledge and free will co-exist is faulty.
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No, You need to explain how humans can have free-will in a causal environment in which god is claimed to already have knowledge about everything that will happen. You need to explain how you can say we have free-will, when we cannot do anything opposed to this predetermined environment. Things are going to happen one way, god has knowledge the way things will go down, they cannot go down any other way. Explain how you have any freedom in a environment in which you are bound to one path.
 
morgantj said:
God knows what is going to happen before it happens,
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the idea of “before” wouldn’t apply to a non-physical G-d, time is a dimension of this universe.

from G-ds veiwpoint, everything happened ‘instantaneously’ so its not like you or i when we know something is going to happen prior to the event.
Everything is part of gods plan
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,

are you sure about that? i don’t know that evil is part of G-ds plan, even if he twists it to His ends.
therefore things are predetermined by god
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as with the whole “before” idea, predetermination is temporally dependent, not being applicable to a non-physical entity.
and as such, we cannot have free-will.
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as the premises are suspect, the conclusion to must be suspect.
 
morgantj said:
No, You need to explain how humans can have free-will in a causal environment in which god is claimed to already have knowledge about everything that will happen. You need to explain how you can say we have free-will, when we cannot do anything opposed to this predetermined environment. Things are going to happen one way, god has knowledge the way things will go down, they cannot go down any other way. Explain how you have any freedom in a environment in which you are bound to one path.
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I don’t think you read this statement and considered it’s implications. It defines what you call ‘a set path’ and explains how that doesn’t render freedom impossible.
God’s foreknowledge does in fact mean that a line of cause and effect is ineviteable, but, the power of human will is within that line of foreseen causes and effects.

You cannot say that the power to will freely doesn’t exist because of God’s forsight. God did not see nothing when He foresaw the power of our wills He saw something ie; the power to will freely. Now, how can God’s foreknowing the decisions we make freely make it impossible to freely will them if that is what God foresaw?
 
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