What's your level of willpower?

[warpspeedpetey]

No, You need to explain how humans can have free-will in a causal environment in which god is claimed to already have knowledge about everything that will happen.

by what mechanism do you suspect that G-ds knowledge circumvents free will?

You need to explain how you can say we have free-will, when we cannot do anything opposed to this predetermined environment.

that is proof of the non-physical. we shouldn’t have free will, or be able to choose anything, but we obviously do. either we have free will, or we have such a good counterfiet that it is free will itself. either way, we choose to do things, that, or its all a great coincedence with no meaning, though i find that hard to swallow from the contingency side of things. what are the odds that trillions of particle interactions per second, have meaningful outcomes, as opposed to simply equalling static?

Things are going to happen one way, god has knowledge the way things will go down, they cannot go down any other way.

heres a problem, where are you getting this idea?

Explain how you have any freedom in a environment in which you are bound to one path.

we arent bound to one path, other than physical determinism, why do you think that?

 

[SSTeacher]

God knows what is going to happen before it happens, Everything is part of gods plan, therefore things are predetermined by god, and as such, we cannot have free-will.

If god knows what you are going to do before you do it, it means a path is already set and you couldn’t do otherwise. There are no choices or options.

If god knows what your every step will be before you make those steps, if he knows everything that is going to happen forever, then things will happen that way. He already knows it. Things cannot happen otherwise. They path is already set. You cannot do otherwise, you can only act according to this set path. If you cannot do otherwise then you do not have freedom, you do not have free-will.

You guys aren’t getting it. As I have already explained, I am not saying that because god has the foresight to know things before they happen that his ability of foresight causes these things to happen, NO. What I am saying is that if god knows what is going to happen before it happens, he can know this because a path is already laid out. If a path is already laid out for you, you cannot do otherwise. You cannot stray off that path. It is already determined. Therefore, since you can not do otherwise, you are determined to this path, there are no choices or options, you can only go on the path that is already determined, the path that god has the foresight to see. There is no freedom of will in that. You must go on the path that has been determined for you. It was not determined by you.

Look, The claim is that god knows what you are going to do BEFORE you do it. He already knows what you will do. This means a path is already set for you. That is how he can know about it. If a path is already set, that means you cannot do otherwise. Since you cannot do otherwise, you have no choices or options. you do not have free-will.

What you think are options are not really options at all, they are only conditions that further contribute to determining the set path that god is already aware of.

You need to explain how humans can have free-will in a causal environment in which god is claimed to already have knowledge about everything that will happen. You need to explain how you can say we have free-will, when we cannot do anything opposed to this predetermined environment. Things are going to happen one way, god has knowledge the way things will go down, they cannot go down any other way. Explain how you have any freedom in a environment in which you are bound to one path.

Hi morgantj,

If you are asserting that God has imposed upon we humans a plan wherein He has predetermined our individual paths in every single detail then I agree that the logical conclusion appears to be that we have no free will. In this scenario our choices are mere illusions. The fact that God knows about these illusory choices before we come to them isn’t relevant because it is God’s overriding will and not God’s knowledge that is the deciding factor. But I can’t tell if you are adducing Calvinism or fatalism since I’m unclear as to the details of the plan upon which you seem to be relying in order to sustain your argument and I can only speculate as to why you suppose a plan of such restrictive parameters ought to be ascribed to God in the first place.

Can you clarify, please?

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[morgantj]

I’ll get to your questions and comments, but let me also share some verses that support we do not have free-will.

Acts 13:48
And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom.8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate… Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom.9:11-22
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. … For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? … Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Eph.1:4-5
He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.” – 2 Thessalonians 2:13

2 Th.2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

2 Tim.1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.

God’s plan overrides our free will; those that do good do the specific good that God predestined them to do, and all others are ruled by Satan because God sends “powerful delusions” to them. The Christian Bible frequently states that God creates our future and decides our fates, no matter what our own will is. It constantly denies that we have free will. Some of the foremost Christians in history have taught that there is no free will, including St. Augustine (one of the four great founders of Western Christianity1), Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism) and John Calvin.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I’ll get to your questions and comments, but let me also share some verses that support we do not have free-will.

Acts 13:48
And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom.8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate… Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom.9:11-22
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. … For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? … Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Eph.1:4-5
He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.” – 2 Thessalonians 2:13

2 Th.2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

2 Tim.1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.

God’s plan overrides our free will; those that do good do the specific good that God predestined them to do, and all others are ruled by Satan because God sends “powerful delusions” to them. The Christian Bible frequently states that God creates our future and decides our fates, no matter what our own will is. It constantly denies that we have free will. Some of the foremost Christians in history have taught that there is no free will, including St. Augustine (one of the four great founders of Western Christianity1), Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism) and John Calvin.

are you making a theological argument called “predestination” or are you making a metaphysical argument against free will?

could you be confusing the two? or, as im not tops on theology, are you saying that there is some connection? if so what is that?

 

[morgantj]

are you making a theological argument called “predestination” or are you making a metaphysical argument against free will?

could you be confusing the two? or, as im not tops on theology, are you saying that there is some connection? if so what is that?

“Is there some connection?” LOL!

 

[warpspeedpetey]

“Is there some connection?” LOL!

ok, you obviously believe there is. what do you think the connection is? predestination of the soul, is connected to physical determinism how?

i ask because it seems as though the ‘predestination’ as a theological concept, one that the church denies as i understand it, is entirely a non-physical matter.

physical determinisms only brush with the non-physical, and this is only in my personal argument for the non-physical, is in the mechanism by which physical determinism is broken.

what is the connection in your thinking?

 

[SSTeacher]

I’ll get to your questions and comments, but let me also share some verses that support we do not have free-will.

Acts 13:48
And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom.8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate… Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom.9:11-22
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. … For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? … Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Eph.1:4-5
He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.” – 2 Thessalonians 2:13

2 Th.2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

2 Tim.1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation.

So I guess your answer to the main question as to your level of willpower is “zero”?

Speculatively,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

God’s plan overrides our free will; those that do good do the specific good that God predestined them to do, and all others are ruled by Satan because God sends “powerful delusions” to them.

Predestination was doomed right from the start.

Philosophically,
Mick
:bounce:

 

[Benadam]

Benadam;4972494:

Eternity or no eternity,

god knows what is going to happen before it happens. That means things WILL

happen this one way that god already knows about.

God’s Foreknowing isn’t something God experienced a long time ago. God isn’t bound by linear time imposed by our perception… God didn’t will everything , sit back since then watching a movie. God is foreknowing and willing in the eternal now as always. I know love requires freedom and God is loving us now.

 

[pismopal]

Part of the “Our Father” is " Thy will be done on earth…" I think if I could live a life without my own will…which I am not proud of by the way… it would be a better life for me.

 

[jean8]

If you had the chance to give up your free will and in so doing would never sin (do evil) again would you give it up?

Why or why not?

Curiously,
Mick

SS,
Our free will is a gift from God.
“A God who allowed us to prove his existence would be an idol.”
Dietridh Bonhoeffer.

jean

 

[morgantj]

So I guess your answer to the main question as to your level of willpower is “zero”?

Speculatively,
Mick

Well, “will” and “free-will” are not the same thing. I do think we “will” things to happen, but I don’t believe we have any control or freedom over what we will.

“A man can surely do what he wills to do, but cannot determine what he wills.” - Schopenhauer

“Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.” - Albert Einstein

“In the mind there is no absolute or free will; but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause, which has also been determined by another cause, and this last by another cause, and so on to infinity.” - Baruch Spinoza

 

[SSTeacher]

Well, “will” and “free-will” are not the same thing. I do think we “will” things to happen, but I don’t believe we have any control or freedom over what we will.

“A man can surely do what he wills to do, but cannot determine what he wills.” - Schopenhauer

“Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper.” - Albert Einstein

“In the mind there is no absolute or free will; but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause, which has also been determined by another cause, and this last by another cause, and so on to infinity.” - Baruch Spinoza

Fair enough. I don’t agree with the worldview you’ve chosen but I understand your thinking. I wish you well with it and hope that God will grant you many years.

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[morgantj]

ok, you obviously believe there is. what do you think the connection is? predestination of the soul, is connected to physical determinism how?

i ask because it seems as though the ‘predestination’ as a theological concept, one that the church denies as i understand it, is entirely a non-physical matter.

physical determinisms only brush with the non-physical, and this is only in my personal argument for the non-physical, is in the mechanism by which physical determinism is broken.

what is the connection in your thinking?

I am skeptical of this “non-physical” realm you speak of, but I will play along for the sake of argument.

If your souls destination is determined by your actions here on earth, by the good or bad deeds you have sown, etc… these are actions acted upon in the physical. These actions in effect would “determine” the destination of your “non-physical” soul. There is the connection.

 

[morgantj]

Fair enough. I don’t agree with the worldview you’ve chosen but I understand your thinking. I wish you well with it and hope that God will grant you many years.

Grace and peace,
Mick

I have gone to great lengths to explain my position, and you say you understand my thinking but still disagree. I would appreciate it if you can please explain why you disagree.
Where are the faults?

Also, If you understand my view, you will understand that I don’t believe I “choose” it, but was determined to it.

 

[SSTeacher]

I have gone to great lengths to explain my position, and you say you understand my thinking but still disagree. I would appreciate it if you can please explain why you disagree.
Where are the faults?

You have indeed gone to great lengths to explain your position but you had to do that because it was predetermined. You had no choice in the matter. The path was set. You could do no other. So why are you asking me for an explanation? I can only refer you to your own worldview. You should realize that I disagree because it was predetermined that I should do so.

Also, If you understand my view, you will understand that I don’t believe I “choose” it, but was determined to it.

Indeed.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[morgantj]

You have indeed gone to great lengths to explain your position but you had to do that because it was predetermined. You had no choice in the matter. The path was set. You could do no other. So why are you asking me for an explanation? I can only refer you to your own worldview. You should realize that I disagree because it was predetermined that I should do so.

“So why are you asking me for an explanation?”

Come on, you know this. I am asking for an explanation becuase again, I have no choice but to! I am determined to.

But you don’t agree with this world-view, so why are you using it to justify why you won’t address why you don’t agree with it? Of course I think you are determined to, but you don’t agree with that world-view, so explain why using the free-will you may think you have.

 

[SSTeacher]

“So why are you asking me for an explanation?”

Come on, you know this. I am asking for an explanation becuase again, I have no choice but to! I am determined to.

But you don’t agree with this world-view, so why are you using it to justify why you won’t address why you don’t agree with it? Of course I think you are determined to, but you don’t agree with that world-view, so explain why using the free-will you may think you have.

No.

Determinedly,
Mick

 

[morgantj]

No.

Determinedly,
Mick

Thanks, I rest my case.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I am skeptical of this “non-physical” realm you speak of, but I will play along for the sake of argument.

the premise that physical things cannot create itself, makes the non-physical logically necessary, thats where i get the idea of the non-physical.

in order for purely physical determinism to be broken, there must be a non-physical factor. if not then we have no free will. and this is all an illusion contingent every particle interaction occuring in just the right way. which is nearly mathematically impossible. every single interaction between the first cause and this post had to go exactly right in order for this post to exist, as impossible as that sounds, now multiply that by every decision made by every person that has ever lived, or will ever live.

free will is all but a mathematical neccesity.

If your souls destination is determined by your actions here on earth, by the good or bad deeds you have sown, etc

theologically, for these actions to determine that outcome, they must occur by free will, thats what defines a sin, something done under free will. if we lack free will than those actions arent sins and therefore cant affect the outcome.

these are actions acted upon in the physical. These actions in effect would “determine” the destination of your “non-physical” soul. There is the connection.

hmmmm… an interesting idea.

free will being a reasonable mathematical certainty then that physical determinism, is broken by a non-physical cause, i.e. free will is a factor of the non-physical.

so non-physical free will would be compatible with determining the destination of ones non-physical soul.

but it is not possible for physically contingent “free will” to sin, so its not compatible with determining the destination of ones non-physical soul.

i.e. you cant sin without free will.