When does "checking out" women become lust?

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fbl9 said:
Just maybe this could be the root of the problem some of us have in regards to temptations in this manner.
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I think all women fall into one of three categories:

your mother
your sister
your daughter

Once you know which one a particular woman falls into, everything else comes easier.

if you have a wife she will come from the second group.
 
SeekingHeaven said:
I am a young adult with strong urges and feelings and struggle greatly with sexual feelings. First of all, is it wrong to have sexual feelings towards someone you find attractive? Secondly, at what point does ‘checking out’ a woman become lust? Is there a 3 second rule of some sort, the things you imagine doing with her, occasion of sin, or something else that makes it lust? Let’s be honest, a person at my age is obviously not thinking of marriage and when one looks at another who one finds attractive they aren’t exactly thinking about slipping a ring on her finger just yet, but rather looking at the very physical aspect, which may even be a first step for marriage to even be possible in the future?. If it weren’t for lust, or at least this very basic physical arousal, would the human race continue to exist as it does? I’m confused, any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated!
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Your question put me in mind of a movie I watched a long time ago. I do not remember the name of it, or, much of the story. But, what I do remember is that it was about a man on a character search. He was a “good” man, but, was searching to become a more honorable man.

During his travels, which happened in an earlier time, from time to time, he kept coming across a man (Eli Wallach) sitting in a large bowl out in some deserted, desert place. Finally, he asked the character played by Eli why he was sitting in that bowl. He learned that the bowl was filled with some kind of oil the properties of which would supposedly make is manhood disintegrate.

Upon reading your question and all of the responses before my post, I began to wonder if that is what God intended for man to do.

Here is my question - sorry for its length:

As a person gets older and loses the natural arousal instinct, or chemicals, or nerve impulses, to become aroused, following the directions you have all given above may well lead to the probability that most, if not a majority, of us will end up dying very lonely. Yes, we have God and thus are not completely alone, but, you and I have also seen the old man, or woman, that is merely existing. Is this what God wants?

One thing I have discovered is that each of us has a different “appetite” for sex. I believe that is partially due to our actual instincts, chemicals, and nerve impulses, but, (and I truly believe this) it is also partially due to our extension of too much self-control. Both physically and psychologically.

I am not trying to rationalize here; rather, I am asking a serious question. A good friend of mine - a person who was largely responsible for bringing me back to the church after my prolonged absense - has told me that he has no more intimacy feelings. He is married, but, they live in celibacy. From knowing him I am sure that this has come from a somewhat excessive self-control. Is this what God wants?

I have met a woman. I am a widowed man. She is Roman Catholic, but, not nearly as versed in the requirements of the Church as I am. I am not dead. She is beautiful, however, I am finding that I am not looking at her (although she is very, very beautiful) with much, if any, “lust” at all. I think this is somehow wrong. I know that she will want intimacy should we decide to get married, if not before.

Intimacy is as large a part of “loving” the other person as is the love of her spirit, or soul. I have been a wandering widower for some 18 years, looking for someone that would put up with me and perhaps, at some later time in the not too distant future, love me enough to wipe the saliva that drips from my lips due to the ever possible occurance of a stroke. (I am a little bit older than she, and, of course, a male. So, the odds of it being me first are greater.) Of course, if it happened to her first, then, of course, I would do the same for her.

However, due to reservations I may harbor, from a reading of the directions given by all of you, I may never get the chance to marry her. Please don’t tell me that I should keep looking; that’s nonsensical: until when, until where, until what, why? Only to discover another just like her and die? She has indicated that she will want to be intimate soon and before marriage.

I would like to travel to heaven. I would like to travel to heaven with her (although not simultaneously, of course). At my age, I do not want to not be unitive with someone for several more decades. Would God expect me to do so? Does the Church expect me to do so?

The Priesthood is not my calling. Marriage is. But, as time marches on, I fear I may so control my lust as to be less a man for her. There has to be more than just the contemplation of being in bed with a particular woman that defines “lust”. Men and women, before they get married, harbor lust for one another. This lust cannot be bad. A lust that is bad must have some other attribute(s) that make it “bad”.

I might sit among a group of male friends, sight a pretty girl, and hear one of the men whisper what he would like to do with her. I don’t. Although, I do admire her physical beauty and form. Somehow, I am troubled by this. I believe that I must lust, but, not go too far. But, what is “too far”?

Is there no middle ground? Somewhere where righteous lust can exist but not unrighteous lust?
 
Ron_Conte said:
Lust occurs when a person consents in their mind and heart to illicit sexual acts, such that, if they had the opportunity, they would commit the acts themselves. Lust is not mere attraction to the opposite sex, nor is it merely a general desire to have sex at some point in the future within the bounds of marriage. Also, even impure sexual thoughts are not necessarily lust. Usually, sinful sexual thoughts are venial because there is no intention or willingness to actually commit the illicit acts.
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Lustful thoughts are not venial sin. They are grave matter for mortal sin-- one does not need the intention or willingness to actually commit the acts --one has only to have the thoughts with full knowledge and full consent. That would be a mortal sin.
 
JDaniel said:
Is there no middle ground? Somewhere where righteous lust can exist but not unrighteous lust?
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I think you’re confusing a desire for intimacy with lust. Sexual urges are natural, and decline naturally with time (so I’m told). Lust, however, has nothing at all to do so much at all with sex as it does with the (come here dictionary!) denigration of the person.

Lust is a crime against nature, not a natural, ah…occurance?

Furthermore, you can be intimate with someone without any sexual contact whatsoever, though I might be messing with words now. Conversely, I’ve heard tale of men who were given over to lust and masturbation, and found themselves, not making love to their wives, but rather, masturbating inside of them.

In that, the wife was less of a person, and merely an object to satiate their desires.
But now, think! How much more your gift to her will mean, now that you have no real desire to give it! 👍

😊

Anyhow, I also think it odd that you associate you virility, your manhood with your sexual appetite. So…serve dutifully and faithfully in Love, and don’t despair.
 
Dtmccameron said:
I think you’re confusing a desire for intimacy with lust. Sexual urges are natural, and decline naturally with time (so I’m told). Lust, however, has nothing at all to do so much at all with sex as it does with the (come here dictionary!) denigration of the person.
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I don’t think so. I believe that every couple, married or not, starts out being together based primarily on the superficial qualities of each. By superficial qualities, I mean, “looks”. But, “looks” does not necessarily mean beauty. That would be too simple; and, we know that people often develope affinities for each other where this is clearly not a general rule.

So, either all of those people develope those affinities based upon purely their mental attributes, or, some, at least, develope affinities because of a sub-species of lust.

The more I am reading about “lust”, the more I am realizing that its not a “one word that includes all” word. Aquinas includes several codicils, to its definition, that expand the definition to certain forms of action (behavior), or, certain forms of thought that clearly go beyond normal feelings of arousal. (I’ll try to find the good teachers definition and post it.)
Lust is a crime against nature, not a natural, ah…occurance?
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I’m not so sure about that. Certainly, some species of lust may well be.
Furthermore, you can be intimate with someone without any sexual contact whatsoever, though I might be messing with words now.
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I didn’t mean “intimacy” in its widest definition. I meant to mean intimacy between the sexes for sex. That natural thing that causes us to seek out members of the opposite sex and compels us to consider binding with them. Or else, we’d be automatons.
Conversely, I’ve heard tale of men who were given over to lust and masturbation, and found themselves, not making love to their wives, but rather, masturbating inside of them.
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In that, the wife was less of a person, and merely an object to satiate their desires.
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And, this is where lust has gone awry.
But now, think! How much more your gift to her will mean, now that you have no real desire to give it! 👍
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I don’t see how this could be. Could you explain?
Anyhow, I also think it odd that you associate your virility, your manhood with your sexual appetite. So…serve dutifully and faithfully in Love, and don’t despair.
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But, I’m not. What I am - and, what I want to be - is for her. Not for me. But, clearly, if your female counterpart knows, or senses, that you are not aroused (a species of “lust”, in my opinion) by her, then, she has every right to feel less than a woman who can command your attentions (and, intentions).

jd
 
Wouldn’t it be fabulous if we could all demonstrate Scriptural perfection like Jesus did? He knows, given our human nature, imperfections and weaknessess that we are doomed to failure, but luckily we have His love regardless.
 
As a teenager I struggle with this as well. This topic and related sins make up 99.9% of my weekly confessions. Everyone’s advice here is very good, but many times its unavoidable not to have sexual thoughts about a woman. I’ve tried just looking at the ground in front of me to avoid it as much as possible when walking somewhere, but then there are the dreaded stairs. 😃 I always try to pray a Hail Mary when I start to have thoughts about a woman. That seems to help. Just something you have to struggle with and hope it will die down in about 50 years or so. :eek:

Pax Vobiscum
 
JDaniel said:
Sex first, then marriage.

jd
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You said she’s Catholic, so I guess she’s not particularly listening to the Church on this issue. Is there some reason that she doesn’t want to get married? Or that you don’t want to get married?

Or is it that either she or you would rather defer marriage because of uncertainty that the sexual side of the relationship can be maintained, and that if not, this would be a detriment to the marriage? Sorry to ask too many questions.
 
JimG said:
You said she’s Catholic, so I guess she’s not particularly listening to the Church on this issue. Is there some reason that she doesn’t want to get married? Or that you don’t want to get married?

Or is it that either she or you would rather defer marriage because of uncertainty that the sexual side of the relationship can be maintained, and that if not, this would be a detriment to the marriage? Sorry to ask too many questions.
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No, feel free to ask. Actually, we both simply don’t think we know each other well enough to tie the knot so soon. And, she is not listening closely to what the Church says about it.

My ex-wife passed away. Her ex walked off and left her. So, I guess there’s some uncertainty there that might need some prudence on her part. If I push too hard too soon to get married, well, you know what I mean.

jd
 
JDaniel said:
No, feel free to ask. Actually, we both simply don’t think we know each other well enough to tie the knot so soon. And, she is not listening closely to what the Church says about it.

My ex-wife passed away. Her ex walked off and left her. So, I guess there’s some uncertainty there that might need some prudence on her part. If I push too hard too soon to get married, well, you know what I mean.

jd
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But yet, she is pushing for sex. If the sex does not occur, does the relationship end?
 
JimG said:
But yet, she is pushing for sex. If the sex does not occur, does the relationship end?
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I don’t know. I hope not, because, she’s probably not going to get what she wants. But, I do have that fear.

jd
 
One thing is certain. If you work as a checker at a grocery store, it is OK to check out women.
 
JDaniel said:
I don’t know. I hope not, because, she’s probably not going to get what she wants. But, I do have that fear.

jd
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Doesn’t sound like a very stable relationship and if you two were ever to get married in the future, you mean to tell me that if she’s unhappy or doesn’t get what she wants she’ll flat-out leave you? Seems to me she’s not in it for love or even the consideration of love but more for selfish purposes, and on top of that I’d hate to be married to a person you’d feel you could lose at any moment just because they couldn’t have it their way. More stress than I need lol.

Besides, this life isn’t all about US. If we grow old and alone, that is indeed a very harsh reality, but it is also a cross that God gives us, so that when we overcome it, it makes us that much more stronger and is incredibly more meaningful (you know that 'ole saying us powerlifters and bodybuilders use, “no pain no gain” 😉 ). This life is not Heaven, it is filled with sacrifice and suffering.
 
Why don’t you guys check out Christopher West’s website? Order some DVD’s, read Theology of the Body. Pray. Say a Hail Mary when you are having problems controlling your thoughts!
Christopher West’s whole life is dedicated to this whole issue. Haven’t you guys heard of him?
 
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