When is the best age for a child to know about LGBT issues?

[edwest2]

Check your local public school library. Little kids, not parents, are being exposed to LGBT issues without the parent being informed. Someone decided for the parents and overstepped their bounds. What about “Diversity Day” at schools? What about teachers bringing their gay or lesbian partner to school? What about the Vice President of the US publicly “marrying” two men?

Nope. Parents are no longer informed. Public schools have become reeducation camps. And then we have “bathroom bills” where little Billy gets to see another boy from his class use the girls’ bathroom.

Ed

 

[Rau]

Check your local public school library. Little kids, not parents, are being exposed to LGBT issues without the parent being informed. Someone decided for the parents and overstepped their bounds. What about “Diversity Day” at schools? What about teachers bringing their gay or lesbian partner to school? What about the Vice President of the US publicly “marrying” two men?

Once marriage was redefined, these things became inevitable and objections to these things became “unacceptable”.

 

[Phemie]

Ok. I’m not in the US, and here, pediatrics is a specialty, you need to be referred by your GP, and they charge like specialists!

I’m in Canada. As a military family we moved often and on three postings in a row I became pregnant and had a child.

When the first was born we were living in an isolated area where seeing a pediatrician involved a flight out of town. Needless to say, she never saw a pediatrician. There was one doctor who had an interest in pediatrics and had done some extra courses so he’s the one who usually saw babies.

When the second was born, he was seen by a pediatrician immediately after birth. The rest of the time the kids and I saw the same doctors. All were family physicians.

When the third was born, we were already living in a city where pediatricians were not as scarce as hen’s teeth. We had already been put in touch with a pediatrician within a month of our arrival in town when the oldest had an asthma attack. He saw the three kids for everything during our three years there.

No pediatricians involved in any of the other towns to which we were posted. Family practitioners only.

 

[edwest2]

Once marriage was redefined, these things became inevitable and objections to these things became “unacceptable”.

I’ve watched a pattern emerge regarding a number of attacks on the family and the redefinition of human sexual relationships in general. Take gay marriage. Just give us “marriage equality.” Then what? Everybody who wants gay marriage and gets married, goes home, walks their dog, goes to work, etc.?

No.

And that’s the point here. Affirmation. You straights must affirm LGBTQI behavior. You will get used to 71 different gender options. Your kids will be taught what we want to teach them at public schools. This is an indoctrination program.

The “best age” option is not an option for a lot of parents. But some have figured it out. Kids need to be kids. Period. They need to grow into maturity without being told about perversion long before they can understand it on any level.

Ed

 

[ToeInTheWater]

The “best age” option is not an option for a lot of parents. But some have figured it out. Kids need to be kids. Period. They need to grow into maturity without being told about perversion long before they can understand it on any level.

And this kind of terminology such as “perversion” is what often makes me doubt what people claim about not having any ill will toward gays and lesbians.

I was not suggesting Catholic parents should teach their children to approve of homosexual behavior. And AFAIK the official Catholic teaching is that it is only the behavior that is considered immoral, not the inclination

However, it seems you are suggesting that even the existence of people who have a certain sexual orientation is “perversion” that children should be shielded from.

Well, I certainly agree that young pre-pubertal children can likely not understand what SSA is.

But I do hope you realize that many young people will experience same-sex attraction way before the age of 15 that you earlier suggested was the youngest age a child should find out anything about the topic.

ETA: Just to clarify, this post is addressed to edwest2 specifically. I know not everyone posting here shares his opinion.

 

[GEddie]

And that’s the point here. Affirmation. You straights must affirm LGBTQI behavior. You will get used to 71 different gender options.

It’s already gone from 51 to 71?

ICXC NIKA

 

[Rau]

And this kind of terminology such as “perversion” is what often makes me doubt what people claim about not having any ill will toward gays and lesbians.

Those that declare themselves publicly in the LGB…etc universe ordinarily draw limited distinction between inclination and behaviour, which is one reason I favour the expression “person experiencing SSA”. The latter expression is entirely silent on how they respond to the inclination. Those sharing a Catholic perspective are unlikely to be public about their struggles with LGB issues, other than perhaps those suffering greatly, such as in gender dysphoria cases etc.

Does the word “perversion” have any place in the debate? Objectively, IMHO, there are sexual behaviours - acceptable to many - which are a perversion (i.e. a “distortion or corruption of the original course, meaning, or state of something.”). This can be said without evidencing ill will towards a person, but the one hearing it may well take deep offence - which may be good reason to not express that thought in certain company.

I was not suggesting Catholic parents should teach their children to approve of homosexual behavior. And AFAIK the official Catholic teaching is that it is only the behavior that is considered immoral, not the inclination.

We need to contend with more than “behaviours”. We need also to contend with SSM, with certain laws, with euphemisms such as “marriage equality”, with the societal expectation that homosexual behaviours are “normal”, that families can be justly manufactured, and so on. To oppose any of these things is held by some to be an act of “ill will” toward the LGB… Community. So - do we abandon all opposition to these things?

 

[Rau]

No, I certainly did not mean to imply that everyone posting on this topic is nasty, prejudiced, or stupid. I actually find most of the posts to be reasonable.

I do admit that I have been shocked in the past by some comments I have read on CAF that seem to go against the “hate the sin, love the sinner” ideal. Such as a poster stating, in response to the question “what would you do if your child came out as gay” that they would “beat them, beat them, beat them”. But it is true that pretty much everyone else in that topic did NOT agree with such an extreme statement…

…However, it was unfair of me to take that experience and generalize it to the posters on this particular topic. .

More than that, I think it is unreasonable of you to take what is clearly a minority, extreme fringe, un-Catholic attitude and to hold onto it as though it were actually something to be weighed in the balance when assessing Catholic or CAF attitudes. I really wonder why you choose to mention it?

 

[at9009]

And this kind of terminology such as “perversion” is what often makes me doubt what people claim about not having any ill will toward gays and lesbians.

I was not suggesting Catholic parents should teach their children to approve of homosexual behavior. And AFAIK the official Catholic teaching is that it is only the behavior that is considered immoral, not the inclination

However, it seems you are suggesting that even the existence of people who have a certain sexual orientation is “perversion” that children should be shielded from.

Well, I certainly agree that young pre-pubertal children can likely not understand what SSA is.

But I do hope you realize that many young people will experience same-sex attraction way before the age of 15 that you earlier suggested was the youngest age a child should find out anything about the topic.

ETA: Just to clarify, this post is addressed to edwest2 specifically. I know not everyone posting here shares his opinion.

You’re description describes me exactly. Grew up and raised in a Catholic family where this topic was never discussed because it was taboo, but I could get general impressions. You had particularly Christian leaders (usually not Catholic) who viewed gay people as the enemy who hate religion and will bring down judgement or something, I heard Catholics who weren’t living up to the Catechisms treat gay men has all predators or express rather derogatory comments when LGBT issues came up that went beyond believing the sexual acts were sinful (not to mention the connotation that ‘good Christians’ who were ‘raised right’ would have this issue) with very little if any focus on distinguishing the acts versus the inclination or actually mentioning we should be compassionate (felt more like sides in the culture war mentality).

So, what does a teenager at 14 who realizes he has attractions to other guys do? In my case, I buried it and focused heavily on school and academics and put up walls so people wouldn’t get too close and discover my secret shame (mostly subconsciously).

Now, 25, I’m more accepting that this is probably my cross to carry in my life, but I still feel lots of anxiety in certain circles. What happens if they find out? How will I be treated differently, they don’t even seem to care about making the distinction between the acts or the inclination? they seem more worried about making sure to add on to my shame for having this cross than support? To be honest, I haven’t seen a really good track record in general of how people handle this issue. It is extremely tiresome and exhausting to put on this face where I feel (and sometimes it feels like its encouraged) to make sure any perception of my sexuality as not being straight is hidden otherwise any hostility or animosity I might face is more on my shoulders.

So, my family still does not know and probably will never know which is frustrating. Nothing hurts more than hearing your family say you should start dating so you don’t be alone when that is one of your greatest fear or you will make a woman happy one day (knowing that in my case it’s highly unlikely to happen). My grandparents will go to their grave before I tell them because of past statements they’ve said indicates they don’t really care about the distinction between acts vs inclination. It is very hard to be in this situation and feel that love and communications with family members is built upon my ability to stay closeted (which I’ve been lucky to have graduate school as a built in excuse and I lack the stereotypical qualities).

If I had actually heard in Christian circles as a teenager a concerted effort to distinguish the acts and the inclination (rather than hear it was chosen, it was a choice, it was a sin which mean translated as everything meaning I was basically sinning just for being tempted). As a scared teenager deep in denial of my cross, I wasn’t going to go looking for help so I suffered in silence. So, I was in this grey territory for a long time before I discovered places like spiritualfriendship and an article by Joseph Prever. But that’s just my experience and I know others have had different experiences.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

More than that, I think it is unreasonable of you to take what is clearly a minority, extreme fringe, un-Catholic attitude and to hold onto it as though it were actually something to be weighed in the balance when assessing Catholic or CAF attitudes. I really wonder why you choose to mention it?

I realize that actually advocating beating gay people is a fringe view. However, I do get a sense that most CAF posters are wary of showing any compassion to gay people out of fear it will be taken as approval of sin, very much the “culture war” mentality that those who are LGBT have a political agenda that must be defeated, and this takes precedence over showing compassion for individuals. At least, that’s the impression I got from the response to Pope Francis’s comments on gays.

I heard Catholics who weren’t living up to the Catechisms treat gay men has all predators or express rather derogatory comments when LGBT issues came up that went beyond believing the sexual acts were sinful (not to mention the connotation that ‘good Christians’ who were ‘raised right’ would have this issue) with very little if any focus on distinguishing the acts versus the inclination or actually mentioning we should be compassionate (felt more like sides in the culture war mentality).

I get that feeling too. It’s not just the LGBT “gay activist” side that has politicized this topic. Many Christians seem to think they can’t prove any acknowledgement that their political enemies have anything valid to say at all, because to do so is to “yield ground”. And this is certainly not unique to this issue, I also see it in discussions about police brutality, racism, gun control, immigration, global warming, etc. Any “compromise” is seen as “selling out” and the state of public discourse gets worse by the day. I understand why secular politicians take this tack, but it is sad how many Christians seem to think that charity is NOT owed to political opponents.

But it IS a perversion, just as someone who has an eating disorder and vomits after eating is using their digestive system in a perverted way, not in the way that God designed the digestive system to be used. This has nothing to do with the dignity of the human person, of the fact that the person might be suffering but the perversion of the acts themselves.

We can define the actions as a perversion without defining the person as so. Many of my sins are perverted and disordered. I am broken, in fact very much so.

Well, the Church also teaches that masturbation is a sin that involves people using their reproductive system incorrectly, but I’ve never seen anyone refer to masturbation as “perversion”. I suspect that’s because that is a sin almost everyone is tempted by, so it is easy to be compassionate about it.

 

[Deus_tecum]

In some places/states, such is the practice at the return to school in the fall, or for entry into competitive athletics.

ICXC NIKA

Our sports physical when I was in highschool consisted of standing in single file line in our underwear until we reached an old doctor seated on a stool smoking a big cigar, at which point we had to pull down our underwear, turn our heads, and cough. Looking back I now realize how dangerous it was to have things that close to a lit cigar!

 

[Deus_tecum]

Yes, a pediatrician is basically a GP for children. And our yearly well-checks are also free. I think I went to a pediatrician until I was about 16, and then I went to the GP my parents went to. My husband went to a pediatrician until he left for college.

“Free” is a bit of a misnomer. There are probably hundreds of dollars of monthly premiums, a portion of which funds the check-ups so they are anything but free. I’ve chosen to pay attention to my health so that I do not need medical care. Were I forced to pay the $300 mth for “insurance” then in my view my annual checkup cost is $3600.

 

[Joe_5859]

Had ***several ***of these conversations. Started out simple: “Honey I want to tell you something, well you know how when you grow older that men and women give each other a kiss?” “Well there are some people that believe it is okay for a man to kiss a man or a woman to kiss a woman.”

Sometimes the child would give me an “ewwww” or look at me funny. Sometimes they would ask if the kiss were really on the lips. Usually it ended with the child saying something like “that’s weird” and that was the end. As they grew older we would have more and more of these conversations, usually quick and simple ones.

You might do better asking your daughter if she has heard the word “gay” and ask if she knows what it means. That might be a better approach. Depending on your lifestyle if she has friends at school, church, youth group or even the playground kids sometimes pick up things even innocently. Better to hear them from you first but learn what she knows maybe then you can proceed accordingly.

Always ask the Holy Spirit for guidance first, God has made you the parent of this child for a reason! You will do a great job you were chosen from all eternity to be the parent of this little girl God knew what He was doing when He picked you, trust in Him for the right words!

Thank you for sharing. We already had conversations about what “gay” means when I read her “The Chronicles of Narnia” over the past year or so. Lewis uses the word quite frequently. Of course, in that context, it means something altogether different, so our conversation did not touch on LGBT issues.

In my mind, one of my biggest concerns in bringing up the topic too early is the risk of skewing the notion of genuine same sex friendships. I think there is potential for confusion for young children that the natural affinity they have at that age for those of their gender would somehow mean they could be “gay”. But really, that’s just friendship.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

In my mind, one of my biggest concerns in bringing up the topic too early is the risk of skewing the notion of genuine same sex friendships. I think there is potential for confusion for young children that the natural affinity they have at that age for those of their gender would somehow mean they could be “gay”. But really, that’s just friendship.

I agree this is a concern BUT I think it is really the LGBT movement and secular culture in general, that pushes this idea that love and affection equates to sexual activity. Especially among men, it seems the idea of platonic male friendships has become devalued, such as the assumption that the Biblical David stating that the love of his friend Jonathan surpassed those of women, meant they had a gay relationship.

But while I am, for the record, NOT advocating that “young children” be taught about homosexuality (and I’d say 0-8 years old is likely too young though I do think some 9-10 year olds would be able to undestand), I also think there is a danger, that if parents wait too long to bring up the topic, then other people will be happy to fill the void, and such people may have very different values than the ones the parents want to pass on to their children.

 

[UbiCaritas]

“Free” is a bit of a misnomer. There are probably hundreds of dollars of monthly premiums, a portion of which funds the check-ups so they are anything but free. I’ve chosen to pay attention to my health so that I do not need medical care. Were I forced to pay the $300 mth for “insurance” then in my view my annual checkup cost is $3600.

True, but in the case of kids, at least, it’s a very good idea to have them see someone fairly often to ensure that they’re growing healthily and not developing any underlying physical issues that a parent can often miss. It’s not necessary to see a pediatrician for this, of course–a family practice doc can do just as well–but most parents aren’t medical specialists.

It doesn’t hurt, either, to be able to run some behavioral stuff past someone who’s had a lot more experience with kids than the typical parent. DD’s ped has given me several good ideas about sleep and food issues with the kids.

As just one admittedly extreme example, my parents didn’t have me see a pediatrician or doctor with any sort of regularity. I was homeschooled, so I didn’t have to have school or sports physicals. It wasn’t until my vision was tested at the DMV in the process of my getting my learner’s permit at 15 that someone–i.e., the DMV worker–happened to notice that I was legally blind . I think my childhood and adolescence would have been a good deal easier in certain respects if someone had picked up on that sooner.

 

[at9009]

I agree this is a concern BUT I think it is really the LGBT movement and secular culture in general, that pushes this idea that love and affection equates to sexual activity. Especially among men, it seems the idea of platonic male friendships has become devalued, such as the assumption that the Biblical David stating that the love of his friend Jonathan surpassed those of women, meant they had a gay relationship.

But while I am, for the record, NOT advocating that “young children” be taught about homosexuality (and I’d say 0-8 years old is likely too young though I do think some 9-10 year olds would be able to undestand), I also think there is a danger, that if parents wait too long to bring up the topic, then other people will be happy to fill the void, and such people may have very different values than the ones the parents want to pass on to their children.

It’s just just the secular world that equates love with romantic love. If you look at Christian culture at large there is this large focus on the nuclear family. In certain circles, they basically view marriage as a check box in life (i.e. everyone gets married by X) and a mark of spiritual maturity. Sex isn’t treated as something that has a defined role (unitive and open to life) but basically just abstain till marriage then its whatever goes with one’s spouse.

Many ministries are often built around segregating by age group and then marital status with any particular ministry to single people being basically a premarital counseling group. Besides the Catholic church and maybe Orthodox there is pretty much no real respect for a celibate vocation (and some Catholics don’t really respect it either). So people who are same sex attracted and divorced people (whom cannot obtain an annulment) both struggle with loneliness and isolation especially since they don’t really fit into any groups. It becomes hard to feel at best forgotten or at worse just a problem.

So in all honesty while secular culture does have a role to play for the sexual morality issues we face, Christian culture isn’t completely clean in this matter either. Just my two cents though. But this isn’t really relevant to the topic of this thread so I apologize

With regards to this topic, it would probably be best to talk to children about this after puberty. One could just focus on what sex is meant for, the Catholic moral position, and say that some people struggling living up to that in various ways (without going into specifics until older). Then go into talking about how to be compassionate to those struggling and loviing to others even while disagreeing. Later you could go onto details about Christians who struggle with various sins and temptations also. But I don’t have kids so this is just me spitballing. I’m sure if I were to have children, my perspective would be different.

 

[edwest2]

And this kind of terminology such as “perversion” is what often makes me doubt what people claim about not having any ill will toward gays and lesbians.

I was not suggesting Catholic parents should teach their children to approve of homosexual behavior. And AFAIK the official Catholic teaching is that it is only the behavior that is considered immoral, not the inclination

However, it seems you are suggesting that even the existence of people who have a certain sexual orientation is “perversion” that children should be shielded from.

Well, I certainly agree that young pre-pubertal children can likely not understand what SSA is.

But I do hope you realize that many young people will experience same-sex attraction way before the age of 15 that you earlier suggested was the youngest age a child should find out anything about the topic.

ETA: Just to clarify, this post is addressed to edwest2 specifically. I know not everyone posting here shares his opinion.

It’s a shame the internet lacks real person to person contact. Personal contact. I go to another forum and have struck up a few conversations with people but lasting relationships have never occurred. Joe8673g tells me something and disappears. I send a private message to someone who is using his real name, but that goes nowhere. Weird, eh? Anyway - to my comment.

Premise one: No one knows anyone and anybody could be anybody.

A little personal history: I was waiting in my doctor’s office one day and CNN was on. An out athlete told everyone watching to “stop being homophobic” more than once. Everyone. So, is the 80 year old in the wheelchair next to me homophobic? Is 4 year old Billy homophobic? Is any random person homophobic?

I was quite disappointed at CNN for being unprofessional and uncaring by allowing someone I didn’t know to tell me to “Stop being homophobic.” A very bad example of painting with a broad brush in no particular direction. Or you are homophobic until proven otherwise.

Next: I met a young lady at work. We dated, we liked each other. We went to Church together. A bit further along, we were driving somewhere and she told me, “I want to tell you something and I don’t think you’re going to like it.” I assured her that short of murder, she was fine. “I used to sleep around with a lot of guys.” I asked her if she planned on doing it again. She said no. But there was a follow-up. “I slept around with a lot of women.” I asked if she was doing that anymore and she said no.

She had a conversion experience. She was Catholic and reached a point in her life where a change occurred. I didn’t ask for any details and reassured her that we were fine.

My use of the word perversion was in the dictionary sense. My apologies for any misunderstanding.

I go to LGBT sites. The ‘emotion words’ are all over the place. The media bias is strong. And I see ads and watched a few videos. Men doing sexual things to other men in public at specific gay events. I read an article about a gay man who was approached by a Christian who did not know him but was telling him about the Gospel. He told the Christian, “I moved out here to get away from people like you.”

The LGBT community is not monolithic, but it is portrayed that way.

Hope this helps,
Ed